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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#10251
BansheeOwnage

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Arashi08 wrote...

Maybe the Reaper memory core is a prelude to Leviathan. Maybe the memory core is what allowed The Alliance to find out about it? This is a very slim chance I know, since the DLC can likely be done at anytime and it almost points to Leviathan being a Reaper (not necessarily but people may draw that conclusion.)

Sry if this has been brought up before, but I thought I'd add something new to the speculation...unless it has been brought up already of course lol.

I believe it was already posted... by you! Posted Image(I was paying attention.) Anyway, I think this is a viable possibility, considering all reapers would know of Leviathan. Good job!

#10252
Hrothdane

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

Someone in the multiplayer forums suggested they may have added platinum matches to the total after adjusting for equivalent difficulty. Say 1 platinum equals 2 gold or 4 silver or 8 bronze. I still think with the time adjustment we might have pulled it off legitimately as well, though.

Hey Hrothdane, always nice to see you here. Posted Image Interesting point about platinum games.
Edit: Also interesting, those numbers, and the operation numbers for that matter, all have roughly the same ratio of credits as equivalent difficulty/required completions. (I suck at explaining things :/)


Good to see you, too.

Don't worry; I understand what you are saying :D

I don't have any new developments or speculations to bring in at the moment, unfortunately. My allergies have been really bothering me and I've been playing Persona 4: Arena for work and ME3 multiplayer. I might do Arrival tonight so I can start ME3 again. I wanted to be focused so I could better keep an eye out for IT stuff.

#10253
ebuchala

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

I'll be more clear sorry. Until the ME3 demo, I had never played ME, although I had heard of it. The demo was pretty awesome, so being the all out kind of person that I am, bought ME1 and 2, and played them fairly quicky just before ME3 came out (I actually started ME2 on ME3's release day.) I'm just saying that I was very new the the series, but still managed to pick destroy. Posted Image



I did exactly the same thing--played the demo and immediately went and got 1 and 2 and played them through, although I didn't finish before ME3 came out.

#10254
ebuchala

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Arashi08 wrote...

Maybe the Reaper memory core is a prelude to Leviathan. Maybe the memory core is what allowed The Alliance to find out about it? This is a very slim chance I know, since the DLC can likely be done at anytime and it almost points to Leviathan being a Reaper (not necessarily but people may draw that conclusion.)

Sry if this has been brought up before, but I thought I'd add something new to the speculation...unless it has been brought up already of course lol.


I don't play MP so I don't have a leg to stand on but from what everyone has been saying, I was wondering the same thing. I think it's a good possibility, even if Leviathan can be played at almost anytime during the game. It gives the MP peeps an added layer of story to their playthrough but probably isn't necessary for those of us who don't do MP. If that makes sense.

#10255
BansheeOwnage

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ebuchala wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I'll be more clear sorry. Until the ME3 demo, I had never played ME, although I had heard of it. The demo was pretty awesome, so being the all out kind of person that I am, bought ME1 and 2, and played them fairly quicky just before ME3 came out (I actually started ME2 on ME3's release day.) I'm just saying that I was very new the the series, but still managed to pick destroy. Posted Image



I did exactly the same thing--played the demo and immediately went and got 1 and 2 and played them through, although I didn't finish before ME3 came out.

Yeah, I only finished ME2 5 days after ME3's release. Also, what you said about MP and SP does make sense.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 15 août 2012 - 05:17 .


#10256
estebanus

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Damn, I come in here and what do I see? Banshee on top again.

Damn, I should've gotten here sooner!

#10257
BansheeOwnage

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estebanus wrote...

Damn, I come in here and what do I see? Banshee on top again.

Damn, I should've gotten here sooner!

Yeah, you were a little late on your... arrival Posted Image
It's seemed like kind of a slow day without you or many of the other people I talk with. Posted Image

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 15 août 2012 - 05:58 .


#10258
Rosewind

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Bansheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Edit: Hehe just read that in my MP Asari's voice....

Modifié par Rosewind, 15 août 2012 - 06:05 .


#10259
BansheeOwnage

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Rosewind wrote...

Bansheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Roooooooooooooooose! Hey!

#10260
BansheeOwnage

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Rosewind wrote...

Bansheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Edit: Hehe just read that in my MP Asari's voice....

Oh that's funny. Some of those are great. The normal human dude sounds like he should say bro after everything. ATLAS BRO! I'M DOWN BRO! COPY THAT BRO! The vorcha is funny too. "Big machine!"

#10261
ThisOneIsPunny

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ebuchala wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Maybe the Reaper memory core is a prelude to Leviathan. Maybe the memory core is what allowed The Alliance to find out about it? This is a very slim chance I know, since the DLC can likely be done at anytime and it almost points to Leviathan being a Reaper (not necessarily but people may draw that conclusion.)

Sry if this has been brought up before, but I thought I'd add something new to the speculation...unless it has been brought up already of course lol.


I don't play MP so I don't have a leg to stand on but from what everyone has been saying, I was wondering the same thing. I think it's a good possibility, even if Leviathan can be played at almost anytime during the game. It gives the MP peeps an added layer of story to their playthrough but probably isn't necessary for those of us who don't do MP. If that makes sense.

To me, that seems a little strange. Especially given what little we do know from the trailer. Then again, this is Mass Effect so weird things abound are pretty much expected. Not everything is at it seems. Which, actually is a theme that goes with more than indoctrination.(Overlord, Shadow Broker, yadi dadi blah blah) What would you shorten that to, deception?

Also, not exactly relevant, but seeing someone mention our questionable victory of Olympus as propaganda reminded me of that one particular string of audiologs you find in Halo:ODST.  The broadcasted propaganda by one Stephen at the police hq. And I think I'll stop typing now and go back to nodding off in the lurker corner. euuugh

Modifié par ThisOneIsPunny, 15 août 2012 - 06:24 .


#10262
BansheeOwnage

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ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

ebuchala wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Maybe the Reaper memory core is a prelude to Leviathan. Maybe the memory core is what allowed The Alliance to find out about it? This is a very slim chance I know, since the DLC can likely be done at anytime and it almost points to Leviathan being a Reaper (not necessarily but people may draw that conclusion.)

Sry if this has been brought up before, but I thought I'd add something new to the speculation...unless it has been brought up already of course lol.


I don't play MP so I don't have a leg to stand on but from what everyone has been saying, I was wondering the same thing. I think it's a good possibility, even if Leviathan can be played at almost anytime during the game. It gives the MP peeps an added layer of story to their playthrough but probably isn't necessary for those of us who don't do MP. If that makes sense.

To me, that seems a little strange. Especially given what little we do know from the trailer. Then again, this is Mass Effect so weird things abound are pretty much expected. Not everything is at it seems. Which, actually is a theme that goes with more than indoctrination.(Overlord, Shadow Broker, yadi dadi blah blah) What would you shorten that to, deception?

Also, not exactly relevant, but seeing someone mention our questionable victory of Olympus as propaganda reminded me of that one particular string of audiologs you find in Halo:ODST.  The broadcasted propaganda by one Stephen at the police hq. And I think I'll stop typing now and go back to nodding off in the lurker corner. euuugh

Good point about ODST. I think I'm gonna go to bed now. See everyone tomorrow! Posted Image

#10263
SwiftSlash

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Sorry if it's been discussed, but what if the team who "procured" the data from the reaper was indoctrinated, and is feeding the reapers intel. Not unlike the reaper IFF did for the Normandy.

This is of course talk about Op.: Olympus.

Modifié par SwiftSlash, 15 août 2012 - 07:05 .


#10264
spotlessvoid

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You know what, threads slow and I took some time typing this up so I'm going to post this, despite my earlier pledge to drop the topic. This is THE IT thread and as such is the proper place to discuss what the definition of IT in fact is. It's unfair to come in making serious pronouncements on what IT means, going so far as claiming most IT supporters don't understand IT, and then try to relegate the discussion to private messages. You put this out there so here is my best attempt at a response:


Indoctrination Theories, as their starting point, must be based on the assertion that the Reaper tool of Indoctrination is used. How, when, and to what extent is clearly still being debated. What isn't debatable is that Reaper indoctrination is an actual demonstrable phenomenon. Starchilds attempts at influencing Shepard through deception is propaganda, which, in the real world, can be described as indoctrination. However, your claim that this constitutes indoctrination as defined within the confines of the Mass Effect Universe is misleading as the connotations of the word indoctrination is wildly different in each respective use. Influencing a person into making a decision detrimental to themselves through confusion and intimidation is most aptly defined as simply a deception.

The act of indoctrination, in it's full context in the game world, is not an attempt to persuade or guide simply through dialogue or mere psychological manipulation, it is a physiological attack on the entire nervous system. That is the reason why indoctrination cannot be fully reversed by convincing an indoctrinated subject of their plight, this is clearly demonstrated in Sarens and Benezias cases.

With what defines indoctrination now established, let's move on to the next part of your argument:

From a narrative standpoint, the entire meaning and resulting consequences of the ending sequence are fundamentally dependent on whether or not what we see occurs as presented. I even posit that accepting what is on screen, even if one claims the Reapers are using an indoctrination signal throughout, is ultimately contrary to what Indoctrination Theory represents. In that situation, the player is not effected by indoctrination directly, rendering it irrelevant to the decision making process and therefore irrelevant to the narrative as well.

The essence of what Indoctrination Theory means is that the ending, whatever the particulars, is not happening literally. (Again, when, how and to what extent the on screen reality is warped or entirely false is why this thread exists.) The impact of this theory on what the ending means and it's subsequent impact on the entire ending narrative cannot be overstated. It is irreconcilable with your theory that the ending is meant to be taken at face value. In fact, it specifically rejects that as it's starting premise. "Was the ending a hallucination" remains unresolved. Therefore, the thread continues.

The debate whether the end choices are morally subjective or if there is an actual correct choice which Starchild is attempting to dissuade Shepard from selecting is incompatible to Indoctrination Theory as it's been initially presented.

#10265
Hrothdane

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As I mentioned before, I planned on playing Arrival tonight. This was my first playthrough since I played ME3 and learned about the IT, and the evidence seems clearer to me than ever.

That is not why I'm posting right now.

Since I insisted upon lasting until the end of the Object Rho event even though I had the achievement, had to restart a few times. This also means I had to watch the getting zapped by Object Rho cutscene 3-4 times. I took the opportunity to take rapid-fire screenshots while the vision was going on.

I noticed something. 

For reference and by request, here are pics from before and after.

There clearly is come kind of imposed image, like the video was caught fading between shots. There are several people lined up like they are watching something. We can make out that some are female and some are male, that there is a female in Cerberus uniform, and a turian or krogan. The mid-right edge of the screen clearly shows a sign saying Nos Astra, the capital city of Ilium. What we can see of the architecture appears consistent with what we see of Ilium in ME2 as well.

My question is: what the hell does this mean?

Modifié par Hrothdane, 15 août 2012 - 08:09 .


#10266
spotlessvoid

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It might help if you could post a couple screenshots directly before and after that one.

#10267
Hrothdane

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spotlessvoid wrote...

It might help if you could post a couple screenshots directly before and after that one.


Done.

#10268
spotlessvoid

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Thanks.

Interesting. Discarding the possibility that Bioware was too lazy or too dumb to put an image in it's proper place and just dropped kicked it randomly into another set of files, it must have some meaning. You can't see it full speed so it doesn't seem to be for visual effect. I guess the right question to ask would be does the rest of the vision have random little images added in?

#10269
spotlessvoid

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Bout to shut it down but I'm definitely following up on your response tomorrow.

#10270
Dam0299

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Hrothdane wrote...

As I mentioned before, I planned on playing Arrival tonight. This was my first playthrough since I played ME3 and learned about the IT, and the evidence seems clearer to me than ever.

That is not why I'm posting right now.

Since I insisted upon lasting until the end of the Object Rho event even though I had the achievement, had to restart a few times. This also means I had to watch the getting zapped by Object Rho cutscene 3-4 times. I took the opportunity to take rapid-fire screenshots while the vision was going on.

I noticed something. 

For reference and by request, here are pics from before and after.

There clearly is come kind of imposed image, like the video was caught fading between shots. There are several people lined up like they are watching something. We can make out that some are female and some are male, that there is a female in Cerberus uniform, and a turian or krogan. The mid-right edge of the screen clearly shows a sign saying Nos Astra, the capital city of Ilium. What we can see of the architecture appears consistent with what we see of Ilium in ME2 as well.

My question is: what the hell does this mean?


In one of CleverNoobNetwork's videos on Youtube about the IT theory. He talks about the visions you get from object rho if you fail to finish before the time runs out, he has some good points about it.

#10271
Gwyphon

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Clevernoob's EC IT documentary is coming "this weekend, monday or tuesday". So excited :D

#10272
devon c greenwell

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Ok, so you guys are a large part of the community. Some one on another thread wasn't crying about the ending and a ME 4. so I said what if they made a Halo ODST type game and you play as a shadow broker info person and as the game goes further you have to find info out about Shep and depending on what you find will either conferment IT, or prove IT wrong. Every one gets the ending they want and a good way to show impact of war on galaxy as compaired to what we see in the game with shepard cause remember, as your infiltrating areas to get info Shep could be indoctrinated all of or part of or not at all durring ME3.

On a side note I did like that someone said the dreams he had were indoctrination attempts

#10273
CoolioThane

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Hey everyone.

Still shocked at the event win but is good news...if it is not a reaper trap!

I'd say we were quite near the conclusion of the Mp/Sp crossover right?

#10274
gunslinger_ruiz

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CoolioThane wrote...

Hey everyone.

Still shocked at the event win but is good news...if it is not a reaper trap!

I'd say we were quite near the conclusion of the Mp/Sp crossover right?


I'm sure theres a hundred ways they can delay it but, closer to the ending arc of SP yes.  Hard to say where though.

#10275
MaximizedAction

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gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Hey everyone.

Still shocked at the event win but is good news...if it is not a reaper trap!

I'd say we were quite near the conclusion of the Mp/Sp crossover right?


I'm sure theres a hundred ways they can delay it but, closer to the ending arc of SP yes.  Hard to say where though.


Then I'm either looking forward to their comment if there will be post-ending material (twitter.com/BioEvilChris/status/235683018352762880) or the infinite delay they'll have to do 1 second before the magical shotwave hits everything and terminates all chances of earning mo money via MP, while staying with the SP storyline. :P

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 15 août 2012 - 11:40 .