spotlessvoid wrote...
Indoctrination Theories, as their starting point, must be based on the assertion that the Reaper tool of Indoctrination is used. How, when, and to what extent is clearly still being debated. What isn't debatable is that Reaper indoctrination is an actual demonstrable phenomenon. Starchilds attempts at influencing Shepard through deception is propaganda, which, in the real world, can be described as indoctrination. However, your claim that this constitutes indoctrination as defined within the confines of the Mass Effect Universe is misleading as the connotations of the word indoctrination is wildly different in each respective use. Influencing a person into making a decision detrimental to themselves through confusion and intimidation is most aptly defined as simply a deception.
The act of indoctrination, in it's full context in the game world, is not an attempt to persuade or guide simply through dialogue or mere psychological manipulation, it is a physiological attack on the entire nervous system. That is the reason why indoctrination cannot be fully reversed by convincing an indoctrinated subject of their plight, this is clearly demonstrated in Sarens and Benezias cases.
I agree with all that. You really misunderstand... we're not saying indoctrination (in its complete in-universe 'reality/mind-altering' definition) isn't occurring.
spotlessvoid wrote...
From a narrative standpoint, the entire meaning and resulting consequences of the ending sequence are fundamentally dependent on whether or not what we see occurs as presented. I even posit that accepting what is on screen, even if one claims the Reapers are using an indoctrination signal throughout, is ultimately contrary to what Indoctrination Theory represents. In that situation, the player is not effected by indoctrination directly, rendering it irrelevant to the decision making process and therefore irrelevant to the narrative as well.
Again, I agree with all that, but you seem to be thinking we are simply accepting that what is on-screen as literally happening, which we're not. You're arguing as if talking to a literalist.
spotlessvoid wrote...The essence of what Indoctrination Theory means is that the ending, whatever the particulars, is not happening literally. (Again, when, how and to what extent the on screen reality is warped or entirely false is why this thread exists.) The impact of this theory on what the ending means and it's subsequent impact on the entire ending narrative cannot be overstated. It is irreconcilable with your theory that the ending is meant to be taken at face value. In fact, it specifically rejects that as it's starting premise. "Was the ending a hallucination" remains unresolved. Therefore, the thread continues.
...but we're not saying the ending is to be taken at face value
at all. You
clearly misunderstand.
Simon posted his/our take on the theory in response to Heretic_Hanar's assertion that the point of IT is that it's simply a 'It was just a dream!' plot device and 'reset button'.
We argue that the point of IT is that the Reapers are messing with your mind in order to let you make the wrong decision. That doesn't mean we think there is no altered reality or anything to that effect. I'm trying to put the finger on the essence of what IT means to the story. For me IT isn't simply 'It was all just a dream and nothing of it happened'. It's 'Yes, it's a dream/hallucination, but what matters is that if you pick control or synthesis, you have fully given in to the indoctrination, you have come under Reaper control, because those options are what Saren and TIM respectively wanted, two people who were clearly fully indoctrinated.'
We're not arguing two mutually exclusive viewpoints at all. We're just trying to put the finger on what the point is for the story. You are simply thinking we are taking the ending at face value, which we're not. It's all some huge miscommunication. =)
Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 15 août 2012 - 01:36 .
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Also "Admiral Anderson" is clearly Shepard's superego.
Also they probably figured pure renegades (esp those of you who shot Mordin, shame on you!) wouldn't really bat an eye about killing off the geth or Edi to complete the story.
