80611 réponses à ce sujet

[DoomsdayDevice]

*INCOMING SPECULATIONS*

Guys, I just had a very simple idea, and I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up:

When Harbinger's beam hits Shepard, she loses consciousness. The first part we see, is a dream. Getting to the citadel, the conversation with TIM and Anderson, the familiar features of the Shadow-Broker ship, etc. It's a dream. Shepard is unconscious near the London beam. When Shep loses consciousness in the dream, after the conversation with TIM and Anderson, is when the dream fades. (Maybe this even means Shepard is dying in reality)

The dream may actually be part of the Indoctrination OR! It could really be a legitimate dream of Shepard's unconsciousness warning her for the moment that is coming. *goosebumps*

When Starbinger says 'Wake up', Shepard actually regains consciousness and finds herself near the beam, still in London. This is why the decision chamber looks so very much like the surroundings of the London conduit. It's Harbinger, waking Shep up, and projecting the kid into her mind, meanwhile subtly altering her surroundings.

But you will ask: "But if Shep never goes up to the Citadel, how will the Crucible dock?"... well, this is why Hacket says in the EC: Someone made it to the Citadel. He doesn't say Shepard made it. And this someone (maybe Anderson) opened the arms.

Thoughts? xD

TL;DR:

After Harbinger beam, Shep is unconscious. First part on citadel (feat Anderson/TIM is a dream - may be reaper induced or legit dream: Shep's unconsciousness warning her for what is coming). When Starbinger says 'wake up', Shep regains consciousness in London near conduit, sees slightly altered reality. How did Citadel open? "Someone made it to the citadel..."

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 16 août 2012 - 11:02 .

[TheConstantOne]

DrTsoni wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
That's a good hypothesis actually; I've never heard that before! And don't be so hard on yourself, I'm sure many people enjoy reading your posts. My favourite point is the one about the Normandy still working btw.

Glad you think so  I think I posted part of it on the second thread but everyone was still talking about EC so it probably got lost pretty quickly.
The Normandy still working makes absolutely no sense to me if EDI is truly dead. It can operate without her but considering what happened when she just tried to transfer part of herself into her new body, I'd think it would need serious repairs without her.

And as for being on the same time zone...that'd be cool if I didn't have such aweful timing 

Good observation about the Normandy.  That fits very nicely with what I just posted about Starkid's "half-truths" and EDI going into shock and her body being fried rather than her suffering complete death

[Nightingale]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Question:

Is the assumption that because we don't see EDI's "new body" (as in new to ME 3) in the memorial scene, that "Destroy" eliminates all synthetics?

Or is it possible, and what others have said, about "Destroy" just eliminating the "reaper" code - that other synthetics simply revert to their "pre-upgrade" state? For example; since we do not hear any of the actual ambient noise from the Memorial Wall scene at the end, can we be sure that EDI is not "present". She could simply be observing from the ship...

That's pretty much what I'm trying to state, since the Normandy seems to be fine.

Edit: Sorry, repeating myself

Anyway, to the above post, I like that idea. I couldn't explain why her body would be destroyed simply because I do not remember (or know, if it was never explained) how it was created. That would explain it nicely, indeed. Especially considering we don't see what happened to her body. It could simply be that she no longer has the processing capacity that she had with the Reaper codes to sustain a constant connection with both the body and the Normandy, or it could be your explanation.

Modifié par DrTsoni, 16 août 2012 - 11:02 .

[BansheeOwnage]

DrTsoni wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Question:

Is the assumption that because we don't see EDI's "new body" (as in new to ME 3) in the memorial scene, that "Destroy" eliminates all synthetics?

Or is it possible, and what others have said, about "Destroy" just eliminating the "reaper" code - that other synthetics simply revert to their "pre-upgrade" state? For example; since we do not hear any of the actual ambient noise from the Memorial Wall scene at the end, can we be sure that EDI is not "present". She could simply be observing from the ship...

That's pretty much what I'm trying to state, since the Normandy seems to be fine.

Feeling a little unappreciated? A little overlooked? Don't worry about it; it happens to most of us here from time to time.

[spotlessvoid]

@ Doomsday

I'm your scenario, what do the 3 choices correspond to in reality?

[legaldinho]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

*INCOMING SPECULATIONS*

Guys, I just had a very simple idea, and I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up:

When Harbinger's beam hits Shepard, she loses consciousness. The first part we see, is a dream. Getting to the citadel, the conversation with TIM and Anderson, the familiar features of the Shadow-Broker ship, etc. It's a dream. Shepard is unconscious near the London beam. When Shep loses consciousness in the dream, after the conversation with TIM and Anderson, is when the dream fades. (Maybe this even means Shepard is dying in reality)

The dream may actually be part of the Indoctrination OR! It could really be a legitimate dream of Shepard's unconsciousness warning her for the moment that is coming. *goosebumps*

When Starbinger says 'Wake up', Shepard actually regains consciousness and finds herself near the beam, still in London. This is why the decision chamber looks so very much like the surroundings of the London conduit. It's Harbinger, waking Shep up, and projecting the kid into his mind, meanwhile subtly altering his surroundings.

But you will ask: "But if Shep never goes up to the Citadel, how will the Crucible dock?"... well, this is why Hacket says in the EC: Someone made it to the Citadel. He doesn't say Shepard made it. And this someone (maybe Anderson) opened the arms.

Thoughts? xD

TL;DR:

After Harbinger beam, Shep is unconscious. First part on citadel (feat Anderson/TIM is a dream - may be reaper induced or legit dream: Shep's unconsciousness warning her for what is coming). When Starbinger says 'wake up', Shep regains consciousness in London near conduit, sees slightly altered reality. How did Citadel open? "Someone made it to the citadel..."

No- she did it/ he did it (reflecting your shep's gender) suggests it's shepard.

It's all a dream, hallucination, whatever. If the end is basically happening in the real world, the correct choice is not destroy. It's synthesis. Because synthesis is the beam. But indoctrination is the heart of the theory, and synthesis is indoctrination.

[Nightingale]

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Feeling a little unappreciated? A little overlooked? Don't worry about it; it happens to most of us here from time to time.

Why do I feel like this is one of the advertisements from ME2?
Besides, I wouldn't go that far, since I'm not really contributing anything useful to IT and you appear to be listening to me.

[BansheeOwnage]

DrTsoni wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Feeling a little unappreciated? A little overlooked? Don't worry about it; it happens to most of us here from time to time.

Why do I feel like this is one of the advertisements from ME2?
Besides, I wouldn't go that far, since I'm not really contributing anything useful to IT and you appear to be listening to me.

Well you just contributed the point about the Geth and EDI not dying.

[DJBare]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Question:

Is the assumption that because we don't see EDI's "new body" (as in new to ME 3) in the memorial scene, that "Destroy" eliminates all synthetics?

Or is it possible, and what others have said, about "Destroy" just eliminating the "reaper" code - that other synthetics simply revert to their "pre-upgrade" state? For example; since we do not hear any of the actual ambient noise from the Memorial Wall scene at the end, can we be sure that EDI is not "present". She could simply be observing from the ship...

I used to be a major supporter of destroy thinking the brat was lying about the destruction of all synthetics, these days I'm not so sure, after the EC I get the impression all three of the original choices are wrong and perhaps reject is the only way to go, after all, it is the catalyst who presents you with the choices but does not present you with reject, that choice has to be made by Shepard alone.

[TheConstantOne]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

*INCOMING SPECULATIONS*

Guys, I just had a very simple idea, and I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up:

When Harbinger's beam hits Shepard, she loses consciousness. The first part we see, is a dream. Getting to the citadel, the conversation with TIM and Anderson, the familiar features of the Shadow-Broker ship, etc. It's a dream. Shepard is unconscious near the London beam. When Shep loses consciousness in the dream, after the conversation with TIM and Anderson, is when the dream fades. (Maybe this even means Shepard is dying in reality)

The dream amy actually be part of the Indoctrination OR! It could really be a legitimate dream of Shepard's unconsciousness warning her for the moment that is coming. *goosebumps*

When Starbinger says 'Wake up', Shepard actually regains consciousness and finds herself near the beam, still in London. This is why the decision chamber looks so very much like the surroundings of the London conduit. It's Harbinger, waking Shep up, and projecting the kid into his mind, meanwhile subtly altering his surroundings.

But you will ask: "But if Shep never goes up to the Citadel, how will the Crucible dock?"... well, this is why Hacket says in the EC: Someone made it to the Citadel. He doesn't say Shepard made it. And this someone (maybe Anderson) opened the arms.

Thoughts? xD

TL;DR:

After Harbinger beam, Shep is unconscious. First part on citadel (feat Anderson/TIM is a dream - may be reaper induced or legit dream: Shep's unconsciousness warning her for what is coming). When Starbinger says 'wake up', Shep regains consciousness in London near conduit, sees slightly altered reality. How did Citadel open? "Someone made it to the citadel..."

Very cool idea.  And reading it gave me an absolutely terrifying new idea on a concept I had waaaay back in mark 1 of the thread.

Alright, let's roll with the Crucible chamber's resemblence to the London beam.  I used to wonder why Synthesis wasn't the optimal choice here because that choice has you run to the beam.  Would that not take you to the Citadel or represent activating the Crucible correctly because it represents "where you wanted to go"?  Reading the preparation for indoctrination part of your idea made me look at the beam in a new way.

Answer this question: do we really know what the beam does?

We assumed it was an elevator but what if it is something different or more than that.  What if the beam is indoctrinating?!

This could mean that Shepar charging into the beam in the decision chamber not only amounts to being willingly and completely indoctrinated and BUT WOULD ALSO would imply that every human the Reapers made enter that beam are now indoctrinated soldiers on the Citadel or perhaps building material for some kind of Reaper construct.  Harbinger attacking the charging soldiers at the beam would have been nothing but a ruse to convince the resistence that they were using a correct tactic

[Nightingale]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Feeling a little unappreciated? A little overlooked? Don't worry about it; it happens to most of us here from time to time.

Why do I feel like this is one of the advertisements from ME2?
Besides, I wouldn't go that far, since I'm not really contributing anything useful to IT and you appear to be listening to me.

Well you just contributed the point about the Geth and EDI not dying.

But that doesn't help IT, it helps with the "Destroy doesn't suck so bad after all" Theory

[MaximizedAction]

legaldinho wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

*INCOMING SPECULATIONS*

Guys, I just had a very simple idea, and I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up:

When Harbinger's beam hits Shepard, she loses consciousness. The first part we see, is a dream. Getting to the citadel, the conversation with TIM and Anderson, the familiar features of the Shadow-Broker ship, etc. It's a dream. Shepard is unconscious near the London beam. When Shep loses consciousness in the dream, after the conversation with TIM and Anderson, is when the dream fades. (Maybe this even means Shepard is dying in reality)

The dream may actually be part of the Indoctrination OR! It could really be a legitimate dream of Shepard's unconsciousness warning her for the moment that is coming. *goosebumps*

When Starbinger says 'Wake up', Shepard actually regains consciousness and finds herself near the beam, still in London. This is why the decision chamber looks so very much like the surroundings of the London conduit. It's Harbinger, waking Shep up, and projecting the kid into his mind, meanwhile subtly altering his surroundings.

But you will ask: "But if Shep never goes up to the Citadel, how will the Crucible dock?"... well, this is why Hacket says in the EC: Someone made it to the Citadel. He doesn't say Shepard made it. And this someone (maybe Anderson) opened the arms.

Thoughts? xD

TL;DR:

After Harbinger beam, Shep is unconscious. First part on citadel (feat Anderson/TIM is a dream - may be reaper induced or legit dream: Shep's unconsciousness warning her for what is coming). When Starbinger says 'wake up', Shep regains consciousness in London near conduit, sees slightly altered reality. How did Citadel open? "Someone made it to the citadel..."

No- she did it/ he did it (reflecting your shep's gender) suggests it's shepard.

It's all a dream, hallucination, whatever. If the end is basically happening in the real world, the correct choice is not destroy. It's synthesis. Because synthesis is the beam. But indoctrination is the heart of the theory, and synthesis is indoctrination.

Yes, Hackett says that prior to "someone...", but it doesn't mean that he's talking about the same person. It could be that Shepard helped someone get up there, but himself remained in front of the beam.

[spotlessvoid]

I think one thing people tend to forget is that Bioware was confirmed to have wanted to use indoctrination but struggled implementing the game play element. That may not prove intent, but it proves desire.This, in my opinion, invalidates the idea that Bioware never thought of IT. Which means they must have been conscientious of how the ending could be interpreted

[DoomsdayDevice]

spotlessvoid wrote...

@ Doomsday

I'm your scenario, what do the 3 choices correspond to in reality?

Control - Shep walks over to the Reaperish device that can be seen in the background in the breath scene, and submits herself to the machine that is some kind of Indoctrination device. This would be situated on the left side of the beam.

Destroy - Shep starts shooting at some tube that blows up, overloads the conduit, which continues to send a hyper-charge up to the Citadel where it will cause a chain reaction and blow up the Crucible, which is basically a huge synthetics-killing superbomb.

IN WHICH CASE WE HAVE AN ENDING TO THE GAME. (one that plays out more or less exactly like we have seen!)

Synthesis - Shep throws herself into the beam and is sent up to be processed or implanted, or maybe she will be suspended in the beam while Harbinger 'assumes direct control' and does whatever vile deed he wants to do. Add Shepard's mind to his private collection, absorbs Shepard, merges minds.... something like that.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 16 août 2012 - 11:19 .

[BansheeOwnage]

legaldinho wrote...

No- she did it/ he did it (reflecting your shep's gender) suggests it's shepard.

It's all a dream, hallucination, whatever. If the end is basically happening in the real world, the correct choice is not destroy. It's synthesis. Because synthesis is the beam. But indoctrination is the heart of the theory, and synthesis is indoctrination.

Actually I view synthesis in the middle as 2 things:
1. A manipulation by the reapers to get Shepard to pick it, both because middle options are superficially good, and because Shepard subconsciously wants to go in the beam.
2. A manipulation by the reapers to get Shepard to go in the beam, because the beam (both beams in fact) indoctrinates you (see relevant datapad).

[CoolioThane]

DJBare wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Paragons > Renegades

That's fact opinion I don't care what you say

Fixed.

Yes...that was the point. Thus the

Sigh

[BansheeOwnage]

DrTsoni wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Feeling a little unappreciated? A little overlooked? Don't worry about it; it happens to most of us here from time to time.

Why do I feel like this is one of the advertisements from ME2?
Besides, I wouldn't go that far, since I'm not really contributing anything useful to IT and you appear to be listening to me.

Well you just contributed the point about the Geth and EDI not dying.

But that doesn't help IT, it helps with the "Destroy doesn't suck so bad after all" Theory

Yeah, I guess you're right about that.

[Nightingale]

Speaking of elevators, what's everyone's opinion on the one that takes Shepard up to the decision chamber after collapsing by the console and Anderson? It seemed more solid with EC - like an actual platform, instead of the light, wispy one prior to EC - and I haven't seen much talk about it. Unless I'm hallucinating, in which case, feel free to ignore me

Edit: Holy spelling mistakes, Batman!

Modifié par DrTsoni, 16 août 2012 - 11:14 .

[spotlessvoid]

DD

Intriguing line of thought. I'm going to have to replay the ending with that in mind

[DoomsdayDevice]

I like that it gives IT an actual ending; a conclusion.

[Nightingale]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

No- she did it/ he did it (reflecting your shep's gender) suggests it's shepard.

It's all a dream, hallucination, whatever. If the end is basically happening in the real world, the correct choice is not destroy. It's synthesis. Because synthesis is the beam. But indoctrination is the heart of the theory, and synthesis is indoctrination.

Actually I view synthesis in the middle as 2 things:
1. A manipulation by the reapers to get Shepard to pick it, both because middle options are superficially good, and because Shepard subconsciously wants to go in the beam.
2. A manipulation by the reapers to get Shepard to go in the beam, because the beam (both beams in fact) indoctrinates you (see relevant datapad).

I always thought that, too. It's the shortest path, the most obvious and Star-git pushes for it so much it's not even funny.

I actually got that on my first playthrough, since I looked away and missed the walkway to Destroy. I was not happy.

[Skeem]

DrTsoni wrote...

Speaking of elevators, what's everyone's opinion on the one that takes Shepard up to the decision chamber after collapsing by the console and Anderson? It seemed more solid with EC - like an actual platform, instead of the light, wispy one prior to EC - and I haven't seen much talk about it. Unless I'm hallucinating, in which case, feel free to ignore me

Edit: Holy spelling mistakes, Batman!

Just checked, prior to EC the 'lift' is bathed in light, the EC version it is not.. strange..

Edit:
Unless... it could be a difference between the "wake up" and the "why are you here" endings..?

Modifié par Skeem, 16 août 2012 - 11:25 .

[Nightingale]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

@ Doomsday

I'm your scenario, what do the 3 choices correspond to in reality?

Control - Shep walks over to the Reaperish device that can be seen in the background in the breath scene, and submits herself to the machine that is some kind of Indoctrination device. This would be situated on the left side of the beam.

Destroy - Shep starts shooting at some tube that blows up, overloads the conduit, which continues to send a hyper-charge up to the Citadel where it will cause a chain reaction and blow up the Crucible, which is basically a huge synthetics-killing superbomb.

IN WHICH CASE WE HAVE AN ENDING TO THE GAME. (one that plays out more or less exactly like we have seen!)

Synthesis - Shep throws herself into the beam and is sent up to be processed or implanted, or maybe she will be suspended in the beam while Harbinger 'assumes direct control' and does whatever vile deed he wants to do. Add Shepard's mind to his private collection, absorbs Shepard, merges minds.... something like that.

That's actually a nice interpretation. It brings closure, which some people complained about needing, as it means Hackett's speech and the slideshow actually happened, and it makes sense of quite a lot about the endings.

[CoolioThane]

Beam in London - we travel up (or so we think)

Beam in Decision Chamber - we travel down

[BansheeOwnage]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think one thing people tend to forget is that Bioware was confirmed to have wanted to use indoctrination but struggled implementing the game play element. That may not prove intent, but it proves desire.This, in my opinion, invalidates the idea that Bioware never thought of IT. Which means they must have been conscientious of how the ending could be interpreted

I agree, people forget this too much. Even me . We also have to remeber that the Overlord DLC, was basically a demonstration of what would happen in the endings. Overlord is control through synthesis. Arrival is obviously about indoctrination, and it is specifically about Shepard's indoctrination.
"Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine."
Also, keep in mind both DLCs were made after ME2 was done, meaning they were created during ME3's development. The ideas are completely intentional. All of that combined proves that some variation of IT was planned as late as November 2011. Is that not suggestive? All people call us crazy.

Bascially, Bioware gave us the tools to prepare ourselves for the ending, we just needed to see them.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 16 août 2012 - 11:25 .