80611 réponses à ce sujet

[ThisOneIsPunny]

TJBartlemus wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

TJ...no the Bioware comments. I saw the infrasound debate unfold live

Oh. Sorry. Don't have that. I just remember that they did say that. (And I've got a good memory.) Maybe Hellish has a link cause it was refering to his video. 

Not exactly what you were talking about but, there is THIS comment on this one article:

http://kotaku.com/58...-musical-secret

[SwiftSlash]

Just a questions about DD's video & the dreams: the dreams wouldn't be at roughly 50% speed would they? That would be pretty interesting.

[TJBartlemus]

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

TJ...no the Bioware comments. I saw the infrasound debate unfold live

Oh. Sorry. Don't have that. I just remember that they did say that. (And I've got a good memory.) Maybe Hellish has a link cause it was refering to his video. 

Not exactly what you were talking about but, there is THIS comment on this one article:

http://kotaku.com/58...-musical-secret

Yep that was it. The comment in the comments section by the BioWare dev.

"Very well spotted! You're correct... there's actually a few other places we used elements of Vigil in both ME2 and ME3. In fact, we laced the entire game with a lot of audio Easter eggs... some fun, some tied to the narrative and some that go pretty far down the psychology rabbit hole :)"

Rob Blake 
Audio Lead - Mass Effect franchise 
Bioware - EA

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 17 août 2012 - 03:52 .

[Hrothdane]

DJBare wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

OK!

I got it!

I downloaded Bandicam, which is supposedly better. Got the video, it worked.

I kept it simple. You see me opening the sound file from the citadel convo, playing it. Then you see me resampling it and playing it, and you hear the Reaper horn.

Uploading to YouTube, stay tuned!

Before folk get too excited, keep in mind they extensively re-use assets, it would not be far fetched to consider the sound guy found it more convenient to use a file on hand to get the job done.

Even still, they made a choice to reuse THAT asset. We had no expectations as to what sound we would hear during that scene, so they could have used anything.

[spotlessvoid]

TJ, looks like thisoneispuny answered my question. The phrase psychology rabbit hole doesn't seem like some throw away line

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 17 août 2012 - 04:00 .

[spotlessvoid]

Hdane:

That's what I just said, of all the assets to reuse....a Reaper horn...pretty damn big coincidence

[spotlessvoid]

I'm off to better familiarize myself with WNT then it's lights out

[Simon_Says]

Well. Crap. Finished a two page long PM to spotless and he left a half hour ago.

Ah well. Time to catch up.

[BansheeOwnage]

TJBartlemus wrote...

"Very well spotted! You're correct... there's actually a few other places we used elements of Vigil in both ME2 and ME3. In fact, we laced the entire game with a lot of audio Easter eggs... some fun, some tied to the narrative and some that go pretty far down the psychology rabbit hole :)"

Rob Blake 
Audio Lead - Mass Effect franchise 
Bioware - EA

Well, this supports what I've been saying about how the team could have made the ending "better" if they chose to. What I mean is the music in the London missions (or lack thereof) is an enormous clue IMO. I plan on making a video about this in fact. It's clear from the above statement (and without it) the audio team really paid attention during ME3. It wouldn't make sense for them to screw up.

Also, I want to point out that I in fact noticed that Vigil played during the ME3 menu on my own.
From that moment on I was convinced BW knew how to implement subtleties.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

magnetite wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Conclusive proof that it is in fact not TIM who is indoctrinating Shepard, it is a Reaper.

Sure would explain the "ReaperIndoc" and "ReaperPower" spells TIM casts on you. Think someone found that in the game files in the last thread.

Reapers made you shoot Anderson, because the codex says indoctrination makes you betray your friends. Makes sense.

Indoctrination still dosent work the way we see TIM do it.

When Indoctrination makes you turn on your friends it is essentially because you want too. Your mind has been twisted into agreeing with the Reapers goals and you see your friend as an enemy of that goal.

But neither Shepard nor Anderson display that in the TIM scene. Their minds are completely normal and their own, it is only their bodies which are controlled by TIM (Reapers).

This kind of control is unprecedented in the Mass Effect universe, which is yet another reason I find the scene hard to believe is real.

[BansheeOwnage]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Indoctrination still dosent work the way we see TIM do it.

When Indoctrination makes you turn on your friends it is essentially because you want too. Your mind has been twisted into agreeing with the Reapers goals and you see your friend as an enemy of that goal.

But neither Shepard nor Anderson display that in the TIM scene. Their minds are completely normal and their own, it is only their bodies which are controlled by TIM (Reapers).

This kind of control is unprecedented in the Mass Effect universe, which is yet another reason I find the scene hard to believe is real.

+1

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 17 août 2012 - 04:51 .

[Arashi08]

OK so I've been hearing alow about Hackett being indoctrinated lately. However, I don't understand how this could be possible. Unless there is lore I haven't read or seen about Hackett I don't think he's ever been in direct contact with Reapers or Reaper artifacts. Yes I know he's fought them in space battles but it would be impossible for the Reapers to indoctrinate him in space, since space is a vacuum and their infrasound couldn't pass through it, since there is no medium for sound. You might argue that the use of auditory emulators might be a potential cause but any decent Admiral of the entire Alliance military with knowledge of the Reapers would undoubtedly know that Reaper indoctrination is a threat and keep the emulators off. Seems likely to me that it would be protocol to leave them off anyway, since you would rely on visuals and scans to determine attacks and evasions etc.

The only way he could be indoctrinated imo is if the Crucible turns out to be a device that indoctrinates. but this too seems unlikely as we never see Hacket actually aboard it and again, they are buidling it in space there the infrasound can't reach him. Still, we are never actually told if he is aboard it so it is possible, but still unlikely imo.

Personally, based on what we know about Hackett, the Crucible, the Fleet's activities, and indoctrination itself, I don't see how Hackett could be indoctrinated. but again, it's my opinion.

[Simon_Says]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Indoctrination still dosent work the way we see TIM do it.

When Indoctrination makes you turn on your friends it is essentially because you want too. Your mind has been twisted into agreeing with the Reapers goals and you see your friend as an enemy of that goal.

But neither Shepard nor Anderson display that in the TIM scene. Their minds are completely normal and their own, it is only their bodies which are controlled by TIM (Reapers).

This kind of control is unprecedented in the Mass Effect universe, which is yet another reason I find the scene hard to believe is real.

Paul Grayson. Granted he was more a husk than an indoctrinated agent but to say it's unprecedented would be inaccurate I think.

[BansheeOwnage]

Arashi08 wrote...

OK so I've been hearing alow about Hackett being indoctrinated lately. However, I don't understand how this could be possible. Unless there is lore I haven't read or seen about Hackett I don't think he's ever been in direct contact with Reapers or Reaper artifacts. Yes I know he's fought them in space battles but it would be impossible for the Reapers to indoctrinate him in space, since space is a vacuum and their infrasound couldn't pass through it, since there is no medium for sound. You might argue that the use of auditory emulators might be a potential cause but any decent Admiral of the entire Alliance military with knowledge of the Reapers would undoubtedly know that Reaper indoctrination is a threat and keep the emulators off. Seems likely to me that it would be protocol to leave them off anyway, since you would rely on visuals and scans to determine attacks and evasions etc.

The only way he could be indoctrinated imo is if the Crucible turns out to be a device that indoctrinates. but this too seems unlikely as we never see Hacket actually aboard it and again, they are buidling it in space there the infrasound can't reach him. Still, we are never actually told if he is aboard it so it is possible, but still unlikely imo.

Personally, based on what we know about Hackett, the Crucible, the Fleet's activities, and indoctrination itself, I don't see how Hackett could be indoctrinated. but again, it's my opinion.

I agree. I seriously doubt Hackett could be indoctrinated. As for the crucible being an indoctrination device however, I can't really excuse its existence otherwise. Here's why. So basically during the entire game no one ever figures out what it does. This seems unlikely, as the galaxy's supposed best scientists are working on it. More importantly however, its docking arms.
1. How would said group of scientists not know that the crucible docks with something? They wouldn't be that stupid, unless they're being indoctrinated.
2. I find it extremely unlikely that they would also not figure out that it docks with the citadel unless they were being indoctrinated. I imagine it should go something like this:
"Hey guys so when the arms on the crucible are extended their diameter is ____. You know what other object that everyone knows about has that diameter? The presidium ring on the citadel!"

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 17 août 2012 - 05:11 .

[OneWithTheAssassins]

Hey all, just got back from playing TF2's new hoard mode Mann vs Machine, and I've got to say that it was the hardest, most intense 3 hours on only 8 waves of relentless robot copies of all the classes. ME3's platinum has nothing on is, we couldn't even finish the final wave, it's nearly impossible to complete. By the end, we came up with a slogan for MvM, "Welcome to Hell, please leave your sanity at the door."

Anyway, how have thing been the last few days? Any new ideas or new video projects to watch?

Modifié par OneWithTheAssassins, 17 août 2012 - 05:19 .

[Simon_Says]

[quote]plfranke wrote...

Oh yeah because space magic never existed prior to things that happened in me3's ending. And that's the whole point of rationality, themes and emotions are just obstacles. [/quote]Space magic before SPACE MAGIC was almost always perfectly justified, explained, and well implemented. SPACE MAGIC... wasn't.

And no, that's the viewpoint of a Straw Vulcan. Moral and ethical guidelines (developed from themes and emotions) can be and indeed often are just as rational as pure logic. Indeed, in the absence of the capability to fully understand and predict the outcomes of a decision they're neccesary tools.

Also, this is a fictional narrative we're talking about here. If you're breaking established themes in half at the last second, you're simply doing it wrong.


[quote]BansheeOwnage wrote...

Correct, virtually all ME tech is based on real science. I know a thing or 2 about science. Space magic doesn't exist in real life or in ME.[/quote]On the contrary, the eponymous phlebotinum is nothing but space magic. But since it was established, explained, and utilized wisely and thoroughly we could go along with it.

Oh, and how is it Space Magic? Well it basically breaks Newton's laws of motion completely in half right over its knee.


[quote]DrTsoni wrote...

I still think it only destroys the Reaper code in them and they go back to being what they were before the "upgrades." They could still build the superstructure Legion talked about and regain it on their own - as Legion wanted - so I wouldn't even call it a true sacrifice in that case. As for EDI, she was partly created by the ruins of Sovereign but even she may survive. After all, she was the AI on Luna. She may have just reverted to that while retaining her...memories. Her body could have been destroyed, I don't remember how Eva was constructed (if it ever said), so I can't really talk about that, but she still has the Normandy. That appeared, at least, to be operational.

Edit: Oh man, my idiotic ramblings made first post...[/quote]I still maintain that even if they were broke they can be fixed, because Shepard was. Oh, and since it took time for Shepard to, well, 'come back to life' in the breath scene, I wouldn't be surprised if the Normandy crew called EDI's death a little too early as well.


[quote]DJBare wrote...

Unfortunately I believe Bioware when they said the EC was it, that's your ending, no more changes, we might get variations caused by DLC, now I did not mind the EC because it was free, but if it turns out we do not get to see a victory without purchasing DLC then a lot of the playerbase is going to be up in arms, because no matter how you cut it, that means paying for "The real ending"[/quote]I've been trying to convey that the ending we got was the ending, in that it should be the culmination and climax of the Mass Effect story arc. The reapers show up to consume the souls of everyone in the galaxy. They try it on Shepard, the galaxy's hero and protector. Shepard beats their big attempt and thus beats the reapers or fails and dooms everyone. Anything afterward is strictly epilogue material I should think. A formality of finishing the fight after its basically been won.

Then again maybe the ending is just the culmination of Shepard's arc with the child and not the series as a whole and thus post-ending DLC can. I personally don't think so however.


[quote]Hrothdane wrote...

I'm gonna start with a brief divergence into aesthetics, so bear with me. I believe that art is the merger of form and function created with intention to communicate meaning, for reasons I won't go into here. Anything that meets all those criteria is art, whether it be architecture, a book, a video game, etc....

Anything that lacks that communicative element is at best an artistic exercise, not a piece of fulfilled art. The problem with the ME3 ending (and the MGS2 ending for that matter) is that while we can sense the intention to communicate meaning, the actual delivery of said meaning lacks the finesse and elegance for the audience to easily grasp. Unfortunately, many others can't even see the intention. Ultimately, I look at this as ultimately a failure on the part of the designers. It's the responsibility of the communicator to make sure their message is understood by the audience.

I admire what Hideo Kojima tried to do and what the evidence points to Bioware doing now, but their execution needs work.[/quote]So basically Bioware tried to be clever but tripped. Yup, that's basically what happened.


[quote]FreddyCast wrote...

The cold hard calculus of war doesn't apply to the destroy ending. The difference is: in a cold hard calculus, you allow 10 billion people to die at the hands of your enemies so that others may live. Sort of like The Protheans abandoning a planet, leaving the population at the hands of the Reapers, so that the Protheanscan regroup.
In the destroy ending, you don't allow 10 billion Geths to die so that 20 billion people of other races may live. You pull the trigger yourself on 10 billion Geth heads, doing the Reapers job for them. That's cold harded murder, not cold hard calculus.[/quote]You're pulling the trigger on a species ready to die for the cause so that not only the lives of everyone currently living during the council cycle but all the infinite lives after can live and grow without the looming menace of reaper interventon ever casting its shadow over them ever again. And you'll have avenged millions or even billions of years of madness, terror and suffering.

The price proposed is ugly. Destroy is still the most ethically reliable of the options provided. Not neccesarily the best. Control could be better, but it could be far far worse. And of course, Synthesis is worse. And Reject is still virtually a complete unknown.


[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Guys, I just had a very simple idea, and I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up:

When Harbinger's beam hits Shepard, she loses consciousness. The first part we see, is a dream. Getting to the citadel, the conversation with TIM and Anderson, the familiar features of the Shadow-Broker ship, etc. It's a dream. Shepard is unconscious near the London beam. When Shep loses consciousness in the dream, after the conversation with TIM and Anderson, is when the dream fades. (Maybe this even means Shepard is dying in reality)

The dream may actually be part of the Indoctrination OR! It could really be a legitimate dream of Shepard's unconsciousness warning her for the moment that is coming. *goosebumps*

When Starbinger says 'Wake up', Shepard actually regains consciousness and finds herself near the beam, still in London. This is why the decision chamber looks so very much like the surroundings of the London conduit. It's Harbinger, waking Shep up, and projecting the kid into her mind, meanwhile subtly altering her surroundings.

But you will ask: "But if Shep never goes up to the Citadel, how will the Crucible dock?"... well, this is why Hacket says in the EC: Someone made it to the Citadel. He doesn't say Shepard made it. And this someone (maybe Anderson) opened the arms.

Thoughts? xD

TL;DR:

After Harbinger beam, Shep is unconscious. First part on citadel (feat Anderson/TIM is a dream - may be reaper induced or legit dream: Shep's unconsciousness warning her for what is coming). When Starbinger says 'wake up', Shep regains consciousness in London near conduit, sees slightly altered reality. How did Citadel open? "Someone made it to the citadel..."[/quote]This has been discussed numerous times. I think megumi or gunslinger actually provided an overlay screenshot of the Beam Shuffle and the Crucible Chamber. The topology is eerily similar.

I had my own idea that the Control Panel Shuffle was actually another ambulatory hallucination, just with Shepard walking away from the beam. Hence how Shepard could arrive back where they started in the beam/crucible space topology in both scenes.

As for Hacket and the Crucible, I also think that Shepard did make it, was lifted partially, and then thrown back. Just like what happened with the prothean beacon. (Also explains the rough landing on the 'Citadel'.) Hence "someone made it". He couldn't confirm if that someone made it up though could he?

As for the Citadel opening. I bet the reapers have wi-fi.



[quote]TheConstantOne wrote...

Very cool idea. And reading it gave me an absolutely terrifying new idea on a concept I had waaaay back in mark 1 of the thread.

Alright, let's roll with the Crucible chamber's resemblence to the London beam. I used to wonder why Synthesis wasn't the optimal choice here because that choice has you run to the beam. Would that not take you to the Citadel or represent activating the Crucible correctly because it represents "where you wanted to go"? Reading the preparation for indoctrination part of your idea made me look at the beam in a new way.

Answer this question: do we really know what the beam does?

We assumed it was an elevator but what if it is something different or more than that. What if the beam is indoctrinating?!

This could mean that Shepar charging into the beam in the decision chamber not only amounts to being willingly and completely indoctrinated and BUT WOULD ALSO would imply that every human the Reapers made enter that beam are now indoctrinated soldiers on the Citadel or perhaps building material for some kind of Reaper construct. Harbinger attacking the charging soldiers at the beam would have been nothing but a ruse to convince the resistence that they were using a correct tactic[/quote]As long as we don't have an official archive of knowledge gathered and speculations proposed I'll keep repeating myself.

GENTLEMEN, BEHOLD! Does this look like a mass relay to you? Or does it look more like... this?

The beam is an indoctrination beacon. It's a lure. It's a bloody trap!


[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Control - Shep walks over to the Reaperish device that can be seen in the background in the breath scene, and submits herself to the machine that is some kind of Indoctrination device. This would be situated on the left side of the beam.

Destroy - Shep starts shooting at some tube that blows up, overloads the conduit, which continues to send a hyper-charge up to the Citadel where it will cause a chain reaction and blow up the Crucible, which is basically a huge synthetics-killing superbomb.

IN WHICH CASE WE HAVE AN ENDING TO THE GAME. (one that plays out more or less exactly like we have seen!)

Synthesis - Shep throws herself into the beam and is sent up to be processed or implanted, or maybe she will be suspended in the beam while Harbinger 'assumes direct control' and does whatever vile deed he wants to do. Add Shepard's mind to his private collection, absorbs Shepard, merges minds.... something like that.[/quote]Alternatively, it's a version of the Geth concensus, except for reapers. Your symbolic action has real world results not because you're doing stuff in meatspace per se, you're doing stuff in mindscrewspace. Also, remember Sarenbot? I don't think Shepard was grounded either. If he zaps I don't see any reason the reapers overseeing wouldn't feel it.


[quote]BansheeOwnage wrote...
I agree, people forget this too much. Even me . We also have to remeber that the Overlord DLC, was basically a demonstration of what would happen in the endings. Overlord is control through synthesis. Arrival is obviously about indoctrination, and it is specifically about Shepard's indoctrination.
"Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine."
Also, keep in mind both DLCs were made after ME2 was done, meaning they were created during ME3's development. The ideas are completely intentional. All of that combined proves that some variation of IT was planned as late as November 2011. Is that not suggestive? All people call us crazy.

Bascially, Bioware gave us the tools to prepare ourselves for the ending, we just needed to see them.[/quote]Q. F. T.


[quote]TJBartlemus wrote...

I believe it is reality. I have a theory on this. There are two Shepards at all times when playing Mass Effect. "Player Shep" (that is us who actually are controlling Shep) and "Character Shep". (The Shepard that is affected and through his/her perceptions we see a majority of the time.) During times of the game like the Geth Fighter Squadrens when the screen cuts to the squad giving an update to the admiral is impossible for Character Shep to see but we as Player Shep do see. Seeing as Character Shep is being affected by indoctrination and perceptions are being affected, I think we as Player Shep our perceptions are not affected. So when it cuts to scenes that are impossible for Character Shep to see it can be assumed that what we as Player Shep see is unaffected and do happen.

(This make sense?? {smilie})[/quote]It's meta, but it does. Keep up the good work. I likey.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 17 août 2012 - 05:26 .

[Hrothdane]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

OK so I've been hearing alow about Hackett being indoctrinated lately. However, I don't understand how this could be possible. Unless there is lore I haven't read or seen about Hackett I don't think he's ever been in direct contact with Reapers or Reaper artifacts. Yes I know he's fought them in space battles but it would be impossible for the Reapers to indoctrinate him in space, since space is a vacuum and their infrasound couldn't pass through it, since there is no medium for sound. You might argue that the use of auditory emulators might be a potential cause but any decent Admiral of the entire Alliance military with knowledge of the Reapers would undoubtedly know that Reaper indoctrination is a threat and keep the emulators off. Seems likely to me that it would be protocol to leave them off anyway, since you would rely on visuals and scans to determine attacks and evasions etc.

The only way he could be indoctrinated imo is if the Crucible turns out to be a device that indoctrinates. but this too seems unlikely as we never see Hacket actually aboard it and again, they are buidling it in space there the infrasound can't reach him. Still, we are never actually told if he is aboard it so it is possible, but still unlikely imo.

Personally, based on what we know about Hackett, the Crucible, the Fleet's activities, and indoctrination itself, I don't see how Hackett could be indoctrinated. but again, it's my opinion.

I agree. I seriously doubt Hackett could be indoctrinated. As for the crucible being an indoctrination device however, I can't really excuse its existence otherwise. Here's why. So basically during the entire game no one ever figures out what it does. This seems unlikely, as the galaxy's supposed best scientists are working on it. More importantly however, its docking arms.
1. How would said group of scientists not know that the crucible docks with something? They wouldn't be that stupid, unless they're being indoctrinated.
2. I find it extremely unlikely that they would also not figure out that it docks with the citadel unless they were being indoctrinated. I imagine it should go something like this:
"Hey guys so when the arms on the crucible are extended their diameter is ____. You know what other object that everyone knows about has that diameter? The presidium ring on the citadel!"

I always found it ridiculous that all of the brightest minds of the galaxy have no idea what the hell the Crucible does, especially when many of the war assets you find are specifically said to involve them improving the Crucible's design. How can you make something better at accomplishing its purpose without having any idea what the hell that is?

That said, I think this might have been more of a story structure decision because if we knew what the Crucible was supposed to do, the ending wouldn't work. If we build this thing believing it will destroy the Reapers and the leader of the enemies says "Oh, well it can do that, but it's actually not as good as you think. You should TOTALLY do one of these other things instead," all but the staunchest Reaper apologists would think the Starbrat was full of ****.

[Simon_Says]

Hrothdane wrote...

I always found it ridiculous that all of the brightest minds of the galaxy have no idea what the hell the Crucible does, especially when many of the war assets you find are specifically said to involve them improving the Crucible's design. How can you make something better at accomplishing its purpose without having any idea what the hell that is?

If you played Spacechem, got stuck, and copied another person's solution, you'd understand. It is in fact possible to improve on something you don't fully understand. You can make it faster, more efficient, lighter, harder, stronger by improving the subcomponents. You'll still won't be left with an understanding of what the overall machine does or how it works, but you'll have made it better. To a limit of course. There's only so much you can do before improvement requires total understanding of the paradigms involved.

Also, consider this. Draw a schematic for a computer that runs on vacuum tubes. Give it to a man from the Renaissance. Could he build it? With plenty of time and resources, probably. Would he understand what he's building? Not particularily. He may grasp some of the principals and phenomena involved but the concept of a computer, or what a computer can do, will still be beyond him.

Such are the joys of Clarke's third law.

[BansheeOwnage]

Simon_Says wrote...

As for the Citadel opening. I bet the reapers have wi-fi.

Too bad this guy didn't get the memo.

[Simon_Says]

Well didn't we establish that it was an incompetent moron already somewhere in the middle of Mark 1?

Also the wi-fi was disabled between the prothean and council cycles. Maybe Cerberus was tasked with reactivating it? Maybe the reapers managed to do it between P:Thessia and P:Earth?

Or maybe there's actually a reaper docked at th- no no that can't be right.

...
LOSFE <_<

Modifié par Simon_Says, 17 août 2012 - 05:39 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Simon_Says wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

I always found it ridiculous that all of the brightest minds of the galaxy have no idea what the hell the Crucible does, especially when many of the war assets you find are specifically said to involve them improving the Crucible's design. How can you make something better at accomplishing its purpose without having any idea what the hell that is?

If you played Spacechem, got stuck, and copied another person's solution, you'd understand. It is in fact possible to improve on something you don't fully understand. You can make it faster, more efficient, lighter, harder, stronger by improving the subcomponents. You'll still won't be left with an understanding of what the overall machine does or how it works, but you'll have made it better. To a limit of course. There's only so much you can do before improvement requires total understanding of the paradigms involved.

Also, consider this. Draw a schematic for a computer that runs on vacuum tubes. Give it to a man from the Renaissance. Could he build it? With plenty of time and resources, probably. Would he understand what he's building? Not particularily. He may grasp some of the principals and phenomena involved but the concept of a computer, or what a computer can do, will still be beyond him.

Such are the joys of Clarke's third law.

This reminds me of the Nanosuit from Crysis. Its nanotech is actually based off of alien tech, and it has been reverse engineered. There was a quote in the book that went something like this:
"Well, if we remove those hex things, the suit doesn't work anymore. Guess we should just leave them on."
Kind of off topic, but I thought it related a bit.

[Hrothdane]

Simon_Says wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

I always found it ridiculous that all of the brightest minds of the galaxy have no idea what the hell the Crucible does, especially when many of the war assets you find are specifically said to involve them improving the Crucible's design. How can you make something better at accomplishing its purpose without having any idea what the hell that is?

If you played Spacechem, got stuck, and copied another person's solution, you'd understand. It is in fact possible to improve on something you don't fully understand. You can make it faster, more efficient, lighter, harder, stronger by improving the subcomponents. You'll still won't be left with an understanding of what the overall machine does or how it works, but you'll have made it better. To a limit of course. There's only so much you can do before improvement requires total understanding of the paradigms involved.

Also, consider this. Draw a schematic for a computer that runs on vacuum tubes. Give it to a man from the Renaissance. Could he build it? With plenty of time and resources, probably. Would he understand what he's building? Not particularily. He may grasp some of the principals and phenomena involved but the concept of a computer, or what a computer can do, will still be beyond him.

Such are the joys of Clarke's third law.

I get your point. I've never put the time into learning technical and sciency stuff, so it's a little outside my intellectual comfort zone. I do know enough to understand your analogies, just not enough to think of them on my own

This is why I love discussion!

[BansheeOwnage]

Hrothdane wrote...

I get your point. I've never put the time into learning technical and sciency stuff, so it's a little outside my intellectual comfort zone. I do know enough to understand your analogies, just not enough to think of them on my own

This is why I love discussion!

That's the point of the IT thread if you ask me. We are the geth consensus. We share perspectives. We combine our intellect to achieve something greater than any one of us could come up with individually. Through the trials of repetition, we discard the unnecessary and fortify the important. The weaknesses of one of us are insignificant because the strengths of the rest of us do more than compensate for them, they overshadow them. We can be wrong as individuals, but as a group, a team, we become something greater: what humanity could become if we put our minds to it. If we work together. This is my vision of the future.

As for me, I tend to have a moderate understanding of english, literature, math, physics, chemistry etc, but I am an expert in none. Jack of all trades.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 17 août 2012 - 06:00 .

[Simon_Says]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

I get your point. I've never put the time into learning technical and sciency stuff, so it's a little outside my intellectual comfort zone. I do know enough to understand your analogies, just not enough to think of them on my own

This is why I love discussion!

That's the point of th IT thread if you ask me. We are the geth consensus. We share perspectives. We combine our intellect to achieve something greater than any one of us could come up with individually. Through the trials of repetition, we discard the unnecessary and fortify the important. The weaknesses of one of us are insignificant because the strengths of the rest of us do more than compensate for them, they overshadow them. We can be wrong as individuals, but as a group, a team, we become something greater: what humanity could become if we put our minds to it. If we work together. This is my vision of the future.

As for me, I tend to have a moderate understanding of english, literature, math, physics, chemistry etc, but I am an expert in none. Jack of all trades.

This is what I was talking about earlier when I was speculating about the repaer model of intelligence compared to organic or synthetic.

Some day I need to put all these essays in my blog section or something.