80611 réponses à ce sujet

[MaximizedAction]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

I would just like to raise my hand and remind everyone that the "Catalyst" can both be entirely sincere and still be a Reaper projection in Shepard's own head, pushing him towards a desired way of thinking.  Leviathan can flesh out the literal background plenty without demanding an entirely literal ending.

Absolutely! That was my very first idea when playing the EC and the extra amount of dialog with the Guardian.

Besides, if the Guardian is sincere then he's also legit. And if he's legit and the end results are real (and we have indeed been persuing a rather useless goal for the last games) then indoctrination becomes a necessesary means for the Reapers and the Guardian for achieving their goal of solving the conflict.

[Hrothdane]

leonia42 wrote...

Depends on what we actually get, to be honest. It could go either way but I for one won't get too hyped up about possibilities.

Cautious optimism mode engaged.

Cautious optimism is my default state.

I also take everything that Bioware says with a grain of salt.

[spotlessvoid]

The idea that The Leviathans created the catalyst to control a Reaper rebellion really isn't working for me

It's the same idea that an inferior being has greater power than the superior being that power derived from

Like TIM being able to figure out how to use rapid indoctrination without causing huskification when the Reapers didn't figure it out over countless cycles

How could the catalyst have the power to control the Reapers when it's creator couldn't

[Drewton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

The idea that The Leviathans created the catalyst to control a Reaper rebellion really isn't working for me

It's the same idea that an inferior being has greater power than the superior being that power derived from

Like TIM being able to figure out how to use rapid indoctrination without causing huskification when the Reapers didn't figure it out over countless cycles

How could the catalyst have the power to control the Reapers when it's creator couldn't

Atomic bombs created by humans have the power to destroy huge areas of land, humans themselves don't.

Humans can use a mouse to control a computer, but humans themselves can't.

It's been a while since I played but I thought TIM's experiments failed?

[CoolioThane]

At the end in the literal sense, TIM uses rapid indoctrination to get Shep to shoot Anderson

[spotlessvoid]

Also, you're comparing the power of inanimate objects.

If the Leviathans know how to program the catalyst to control the Reapers, then it follows they understand the mechanism by which that occurs (they should, they created the things in this hypothesis) and therefore should know how to do so without needing a fully independent AI to do so.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

CoolioThane wrote...

At the end in the literal sense, TIM uses rapid indoctrination to get Shep to shoot Anderson

Nope, had it been real indoctrination Shepard would have done it out of his own twisted will. Indoctrination from what we have seen controls the body through the mind, but TIM somehow controls their body without touching the mind.

The only precedent for this from what i know is Paul Grayson, but he was full of Reaper implants and from what have heard he not exactly in complete control of his own mind either. Shepard and Anderson on the other hand seem to be purely controlled through their body without any reaper implants to faciliate it and with no effect on their mind...

[Drewton]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

At the end in the literal sense, TIM uses rapid indoctrination to get Shep to shoot Anderson

The only precedent for this from what i know is Paul Grayson, but he was full of Reaper implants and from what have heard he not exactly in complete control of his own mind either. Shepard and Anderson on the other hand seem to be purely controlled through their body without any reaper implants to faciliate it and with no effect on their mind...

On a slightly different train of thought, how do we know Shepard has no Reaper implants?

spotlessvoid wrote...

Also, you're comparing the power of inanimate objects.

If the Leviathans know how to program the catalyst to control the Reapers, then it follows they understand the mechanism by which that occurs (they should, they created the things in this hypothesis) and therefore should know how to do so without needing a fully independent AI to do so.

 
As I understood it, the Crucible sends out a huge signal to control the Reapers. I agree the Catalyst itself controlling the Reapers doesn't make much sense.

Modifié par Drewton, 17 août 2012 - 08:28 .

[spotlessvoid]

Additionally, they thought the AI was shackled but it turned on them? The Reapers already rebelled, like a rabid dog, it's time to put then down. Why program an AI with anything but a destroy all Reapers command

[Drewton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Additionally, they thought the AI was shackled but it turned on them? The Reapers already rebelled, like a rabid dog, it's time to put then down. Why program an AI with anything but a destroy all Reapers command

The literal versions of the entire endings are so ridiculous I've never put much thought into them. 

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Drewton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

At the end in the literal sense, TIM uses rapid indoctrination to get Shep to shoot Anderson

The only precedent for this from what i know is Paul Grayson, but he was full of Reaper implants and from what have heard he not exactly in complete control of his own mind either. Shepard and Anderson on the other hand seem to be purely controlled through their body without any reaper implants to faciliate it and with no effect on their mind...

On a slightly different train of thought, how do we know Shepard has no Reaper implants?

We dont, in fact Miranda even mentions working with Black Boxes on the Lazaus Project, so there is a good chance Shepard has Reaper tech in him.

But in the very same conversation if I am not mistaken Miranda also says that no control mechanism was worked into Shepard, by order of TIM.

Also either way Anderson dont have any Reaper implants, unless he is even deeper in the Indoctrination than we thought, but if that is the case it opens the big question of why Anderson and TIM dident double team Shepard in that scene...

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 17 août 2012 - 08:33 .

[spotlessvoid]

Drewton...fair enough =)

Re no Shep implants....I thought that's why they had Miranda mention it a thousand times

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Drewton...fair enough =)

Re no Shep implants....I thought that's why they had Miranda mention it a thousand times

No Control Chip is what she says, but she also mentions working with Black Boxes.

Also Shep has several implants by ME2 and ME3, it was required to rebuild him and we know he has them because he can perform things humans should not be able to do, like using the M-300 Claymore Shotgun (ME2 version breaks a humans arm on the recoil.)

The question is if there is Reaper Tech and of that we cant be certain.

[spotlessvoid]

Also, if the catalyst truly controls the Reapers, who needs the crucible?

"Sure, I could just tell them to stop, but I'd rather kill off edi and the geth by making you send out the destructo beam"
Or why not
"You chose control,very wise Shepard. So first turn this key, then pop the clutch....actually forgert it, it'll just be easier if you die in the process..."

Synthesis:

"Super ultra collectible Joker circuit board hat is usually 800,000,000 Microsoft points, but it's free to you with synthesis. Common Shep, it's got little lights (batteries not included)"

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 17 août 2012 - 09:04 .

[spotlessvoid]

But I was just trying to propel us into Mark 4!

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 17 août 2012 - 09:07 .

[spotlessvoid]

=P

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 17 août 2012 - 09:06 .

[Schachmatt123]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

The question is if there is Reaper Tech and of that we cant be certain.

Wouldn't had Dr. Chakwas found any reaper tech during her examination after she was hired in the beginning of ME3?

Not sure if Dr. Michel examined Shepard if you choose her to be the normandys new doctor though...

Modifié par Schachmatt, 17 août 2012 - 09:16 .

[Simon_Says]

Spotless, there's an edit button. We'd all be grateful if you used that instead of triple posting.

Actually let me demonstrate with an edit in this very post.

@ Drew. As long as it can provide the depth and cohesion to a ending lacking in either, Indoctrination Theory will adapt to do so.

I haven't actually been paying to the spoilers in an effort to, well, y'know, avoid spoilers so I'm still in the dark regarding what you're concerned over. But are you seriously going to trust what the Leviathan says? I mean, we don't trust what the Catalyst says, for good reason. We don't trust what TIM says, for good reason. We didn't trust Saren, for good reason.

Good rule of thumb: If you don't know with certainty if you can trust something or not, don't.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 17 août 2012 - 09:06 .

[Leonia]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Also, you're comparing the power of inanimate objects.

If the Leviathans know how to program the catalyst to control the Reapers, then it follows they understand the mechanism by which that occurs (they should, they created the things in this hypothesis) and therefore should know how to do so without needing a fully independent AI to do so.

Thinking about this does my head in, it's a bit of a paradox isn't it.. or a chicken-before-the-egg sort of situation.

[spotlessvoid]

@leonia

Not exactly since I'm not really arguing which came first. Since it's a provable argument if one knows the proper details, it isn't a paradox. It would be a logical fallacy. A plot hole

[Simon_Says]

I think I once expressed an idea that the Catalyst is actually a copy of a 'master indoctrination program' that was implanted in Shepard's mind by the protoreaper or by Object Rho.

The program dictates reaper behaviour. It's a representation and summary of all reaper intelligences. It can and is the voice of a larger indoctrination network that the Citadel is a part of. But since it's in Shepard's head it can't actually connect and assume direct control of the reapers.

Does that make any sense? To me it seemed to before I actually put it down in words...

Modifié par Simon_Says, 17 août 2012 - 09:17 .

[Leonia]

spotlessvoid wrote...

@leonia

Not exactly since I'm not really arguing which came first. Since it's a provable argument if one knows the proper details, it isn't a paradox. It would be a logical fallacy. A plot hole

That's what I meant, sorry it's late and I've been listening to morons using text speak in public chat channels in a game I am playing. My IQ may have been lowered by this experience.

[demersel]

leonia42 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Also, you're comparing the power of inanimate objects.

If the Leviathans know how to program the catalyst to control the Reapers, then it follows they understand the mechanism by which that occurs (they should, they created the things in this hypothesis) and therefore should know how to do so without needing a fully independent AI to do so.

Thinking about this does my head in, it's a bit of a paradox isn't it.. or a chicken-before-the-egg sort of situation.

No it's not. It's very simple actually. 

The human way of conduct, when faced with complex moral and logic dilemma is..... to kill it with fire!!! 

When you meet the catalyst - nod while he's speaking, and then shoot the tube, to kill it and the reapers with fire! If it's real - the catalyst and the reapers will be dead - problem fixed once and for all, regardless of moral and logical complications.  If it's not real, and it is all a dream, by choosing destroy  - you'll wake up, and THEN can kill all the reapers with fire, for real this time!  It's a Win\\Win!

note: not a troll post, i'm serious. 

[spotlessvoid]

The only part I'd leave out is that it dictates Reaper behavior. The rest of the idea, that the catalyst code was embedded in Sheps brain prior to reaching the citadel is certainly plausible

[Leonia]

Because I was totally talking about the ending choices by mentioning a paradox.

I meant that if the creators didn't understand what they were creating then it presents all sorts of problems.