80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Drewton]

So the Reapers' creators built an AI that could scan and understand a brain of a species that wouldn't come about for thousands or millions of years?

[desert_beagle]

I don't think the kid is the Catalyst at all. The Catalyst is clearly stated to be the thing needed to fire the Crucible and that is the Citidel. The star child Reaper god thing whatever you want to call it can't do any of that. He runs an Indy 500 in circular logic and then makes you activate the thing because he can't.

Problem, if this "Catalyst" lives on the Citidel and has been using the Reapers for its own purposes, then why would it need the Keepers to activate the Citidel in previous cycles? Why didn't it take control of the Citidel in ME1 to bring the Reapers through? Sovereign had to come to the Citidel in person to take control of it, and Shepard stopped it with a program from Vigil. So the star child is claiming to be AI that supports the Reapers living on the Citidel, but powerless to do anything to further is goals. I'm calling the Reaper BS card on that one, too.

[BansheeOwnage]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Gonna go off topic to answer thee second part.

During that orbital reentry Noble Six goes through in Reach he is wearing a "Reentry Kit." It is not easy to spot as it is a small attachment to his back bearing the above text only visible in cutscenes or if you have a second player playing splitscreen so he can watch your back during the mission.

What does the Kit exactly do? No clue at all, but it is a possible explanation.

As for Master Chiefs later suvrival of reentry, from what I understand it was essentially because he locked down his suit much like the "Armor Lock" power from Reach.

But in the ME series we know Shepard cant survive Orbital reentry because...well he dident, he died in ME2. Only a set of incredibly lucky conincedences kept his brain intact enough to bring him back and even then it was a project which took 2 years and a massive amount of Credits.

He would not be breathing in that rubble had he come from the Citadel.

Agreed, there is no way. There is equally no way she could be on the citadel. So there you go, IT.

If you create a theory that fixes virtually every problem you can think of with seemingly no effort and no twisting facts, I believe you may have indeed found the truth.

As for Noble six's reentry, I would assume the pack would slow him down enough to not burn up. Also, Cheif rode in on a piece of the Forerunner keyship too, and we all know that Forerunner metal is ridiculously resistant to heat. Which kind of reminds me how the citadel is made from an unknown, highly durable metal. Not concrete...

[Simon_Says]

desert_beagle wrote...

Aside from all of the other assertions and evidence pointing towards the IT, one thing that I have not seen addressed is the sheer convenience of everything after Harbinger's beam. I mean think about it. The transport beam literally takes him to a place on the Citidel with a straight shot to a control panel that opens the arms. No exploration necessary, just walk in a straight line, and here you go, open the arms and allow the one thing in the galaxy that will kill the Reapers the ability to dock. Then there is the elevator that takes him up after he passes out. First he dropped his gun before going up, then he passes out and this "magic" elevator on the Citidel (designed by Reapers) takes him exactly where he needs to go to activate the Crucible(designed by life from previous cycles). Oh and this Reaper AI that just happens to take on the form of the same child that Shepard has been seeing through out the game and practically says "I'm a Reaper AI, but believe everything I have to say, and the ONLY REALLY GOOD solutions are either to Control US or to Synthesize with US." Then Shepard is holding his gun again. and you make your choice. Even with the extended cut, I have to call the BS card on this. It makes absolutely no sense for any of these stars to just align themselves after Harbinger just made sure that nobody got to the transport beam. We KNOW from Vigil and the Prothean VI that trying to control the Reapers HAS NEVER WORKED. Everyone who has tried has failed. Synthesis is what the Reapers are already doing. They harvest organic life and synthesize it into their own organic/synthetic form to make troops or more Reapers. Of course a Reaper AI is going to push you towards those two and make you believe that by doing this you have saved everyone and that by destroying them you will kill all of your synthetic friends along with them and you will just prove his point that organics will always destroy synthetics. The Catalyst even says that TIM couldn't control them, because they already controlled him. What do you think they are trying to do with Shepard? That is what the Reapers are all about, at the end of ME2 Harbinger says, "We are your salvation through destruction."

First off, paragraphs. Use 'em.

I actually brought up the conveniance of the whole ending numerous times. A relay that sends subjects traight to a citadel control panel? Harbinger failing to kill Shepard despite decimating everything else? The Catalyst bringing Shepard to the Crucible chamber itself?

And there's more. The reapers were planning something big in London even before the events of P:Thessia. The reapers didn't go after the Citadel and assume control of the relay network despite attacking Beckensein, which is in the same cluster. The message 'Hackett' sends to Shepard just before P:Mars is actually mirrored and displays static unlike what should be exhibited (see the static from the recordings of reaper attacks in both the start of ME1 and ME3), which likely means that message was  in fact a reaper fabrication meant to guide Shepard towards the Crucible.

Liara was in close proximity of Glyph for months. We don't know what glyph really is or where it came from. It's just been there, serving Shadow Broker after Shadow Broker for who knows how long, keeping the balance and would have been in a perfect position to control the intel the Shadow Broker themself knows. Suddenly it gives Liara information of a find in the martian archives at a most convenient moment, towards a supposed superweapon.

The Catalyst describes the Crucible as basically a giant battery. Ergo it should actually be the Citadel that's the actual source of SPACE MAGIC and the Crucible just provides the juice for it. Except if this is the case why would the reapers actually want to prevent its creation or activation, if it could cause the Synthesis they apparently desire? Or in a more general sense, the reapers knew of the Crucible. They must have been able to understand what it can do. What's to say they don't know how to use it for thier own ends, or that they weren't willing to do so?

The answer is simple. The reapers are allowing the cycle to build the Crucible so that they can use it for thier own ends. Namely, to draw the entire military might of the galaxy into one killzone so that they can be decimated by overwhelming firepower or pacified through indoctrination. If the Crucible is a weapon (physical or mental) then the reapers will turn it against the cycle. If the Crucible is a dud the cycle will have wasted time and resources on a dud instead of building warships. And the reapers wouldn't even have needed to put in any real effort, the cycle was glad enough to do the job for them.

By hammering its military might and converting it leaders, the reapers can finally pacify the council cycle and convince them to allow the harvest without resistance. It's a brilliant plan actually.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 19 août 2012 - 05:40 .

[ozzydude66]

Drewton: They would have to upgrade the scaner every cycle but it make me happy even if it isn't %100.

Modifié par ozzydude66, 19 août 2012 - 05:41 .

[Drewton]

ozzydude66 wrote...

Drewton: They would have to ubgrade the scaner every cycle but it make me happy even if it isn't %100.

Who would upgrade the scanner? The Reapers? Why would they upgrade something that could help destroy or control them?

[Rosewind]

lol! I just had a brain fart.... looked at the title and was like OMG mark iii since when.... oh wait ....

[BansheeOwnage]

desert_beagle wrote...

I don't think the kid is the Catalyst at all. The Catalyst is clearly stated to be the thing needed to fire the Crucible and that is the Citidel. The star child Reaper god thing whatever you want to call it can't do any of that. He runs an Indy 500 in circular logic and then makes you activate the thing because he can't.

Problem, if this "Catalyst" lives on the Citidel and has been using the Reapers for its own purposes, then why would it need the Keepers to activate the Citidel in previous cycles? Why didn't it take control of the Citidel in ME1 to bring the Reapers through? Sovereign had to come to the Citidel in person to take control of it, and Shepard stopped it with a program from Vigil. So the star child is claiming to be AI that supports the Reapers living on the Citidel, but powerless to do anything to further is goals. I'm calling the Reaper BS card on that one, too.

Congratulations, you have successfully realized that with the current endings, the entirety of the rest of the series is rendered pointless. That's why I find them so hard to believe.

[BansheeOwnage]

Rosewind wrote...

lol! I just had a brain fart.... looked at the title and was like OMG mark iii since when.... oh wait ....

Hey Rose! Nice job. Actually, I kind of had one too. I just realized last night that your picture is from LOTSB.

[Drewton]

Simon_Says wrote...

The answer is simple. The reapers are allowing the cycle to build the Crucible so that they can use it for thier own ends. Namely, to draw the entire military might of the galaxy into one killzone so that they can be decimated by overwhelming firepower or pacified through indoctrination. If the Crucible is a weapon (physical or mental) then the reapers will turn it against the cycle. If the Crucible is a dud the cycle will have wasted time and resources on a dud instead of building warships. And the reapers wouldn't even have needed to put in any real effort, the cycle was glad enough to do the job for them.

By hammering its military might and converting it leaders, the reapers can finally pacify the council cycle and convince them to allow the harvest without resistance. It's a brilliant plan actually.

Wow, that is brilliant. Best explanation of the Crucible I've heard.

Modifié par Drewton, 19 août 2012 - 05:43 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

desert_beagle wrote...

I don't think the kid is the Catalyst at all. The Catalyst is clearly stated to be the thing needed to fire the Crucible and that is the Citidel. The star child Reaper god thing whatever you want to call it can't do any of that. He runs an Indy 500 in circular logic and then makes you activate the thing because he can't.

Problem, if this "Catalyst" lives on the Citidel and has been using the Reapers for its own purposes, then why would it need the Keepers to activate the Citidel in previous cycles? Why didn't it take control of the Citidel in ME1 to bring the Reapers through? Sovereign had to come to the Citidel in person to take control of it, and Shepard stopped it with a program from Vigil. So the star child is claiming to be AI that supports the Reapers living on the Citidel, but powerless to do anything to further is goals. I'm calling the Reaper BS card on that one, too.

Here is another fun little bit from Vigil. He  tells you how the Prothean Sciencetists altered the signal emanating from the Citadel itself which was controlling the Keepers...

The Catalyst claims to be the Citadel...

Why couldnt he alter the Signal?

...or are we seriusly going to the extremes of the Catalyst beeing the Citadel but not beeing able to control it or anything related to the Citadel in any way? He cant open the Relay? Control the Arms? Control the other Relays? He cant even control the signals emanating from himself?

Really horrible design if they dident give their own leader control of any of his bodies functions...

Oh wait we actually see in EC how he can control at least some of the Citadel as he shuts down the beam to the Crucible...

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 19 août 2012 - 05:48 .

[ozzydude66]

Drewton: The upgrade would be to prevent that. It's a counter measure for if any race can build a weapon. Notice the child trys to make synthesis seem so great.

Modifié par ozzydude66, 19 août 2012 - 05:45 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Drewton wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

The answer is simple. The reapers are allowing the cycle to build the Crucible so that they can use it for thier own ends. Namely, to draw the entire military might of the galaxy into one killzone so that they can be decimated by overwhelming firepower or pacified through indoctrination. If the Crucible is a weapon (physical or mental) then the reapers will turn it against the cycle. If the Crucible is a dud the cycle will have wasted time and resources on a dud instead of building warships. And the reapers wouldn't even have needed to put in any real effort, the cycle was glad enough to do the job for them.

By hammering its military might and converting it leaders, the reapers can finally pacify the council cycle and convince them to allow the harvest without resistance. It's a brilliant plan actually.

Wow, that is brilliant. Best explanation of the Crucible I've heard.

Crucible = trap. We've "known" that for ages.

[Rosewind]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

lol! I just had a brain fart.... looked at the title and was like OMG mark iii since when.... oh wait ....

Hey Rose! Nice job. Actually, I kind of had one too. I just realized last night that your picture is from LOTSB.

*Face palm* Come on Banshee I even told you it was ><

[BansheeOwnage]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Really horrible design if they dident give their own leader control of any of his bodies functions...

Oh wait we actually see in EC how he can control at least some of the Citadel as he shuts down the beam to the Crucible...

Good point. Further evidence that his existence renders the whole series pointless.

[ozzydude66]

Simon_Says: That is a great idea you got there.

[BansheeOwnage]

Rosewind wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

lol! I just had a brain fart.... looked at the title and was like OMG mark iii since when.... oh wait ....

Hey Rose! Nice job. Actually, I kind of had one too. I just realized last night that your picture is from LOTSB.

*Face palm* Come on Banshee I even told you it was ><

I know. That's why it's so bad.  On a completely different topic, did you know I ran into some people who were wondering if Miranda has a speech inpediment. That's even worse more ignorant than people thinking she's British! Sometimes I wonder if Americans have heard of Australia...

[BansheeOwnage]

Simon_Says wrote...

Hey Simon, I didn't know you were Canadian. So am I!

[desert_beagle]

Simon_Says wrote...

First off, paragraphs. Use 'em.

I actually brought up the conveniance of the whole ending numerous times. A relay that sends subjects traight to a citadel control panel? Harbinger failing to kill Shepard despite decimating everything else? The Catalyst bringing Shepard to the Crucible chamber itself?

And there's more. The reapers were planning something big in London even before the events of P:Thessia. The reapers didn't go after the Citadel and assume control of the relay network despite attacking Beckensein, which is in the same cluster. The message 'Hackett' sends to Shepard just before P:Mars is actually mirrored and displays static unlike what should be exhibited (see the static from the recordings of reaper attacks in both the start of ME1 and ME3), which likely means that message was  in fact a reaper fabrication meant to guide Shepard towards the Crucible.

Liara was in close proximity of Glyph for months. We don't know what glyph really is or where it came from. It's just been there, serving Shadow Broker after Shadow Broker for who knows how long, keeping the balance and would have been in a perfect position to control the intel the Shadow Broker themself knows. Suddenly it gives Liara information of a find in the martian archives at a most convenient moment, towards a supposed superweapon.

The Catalyst describes the Crucible as basically a giant battery. Ergo it should actually be the Citadel that's the actual source of SPACE MAGIC and the Crucible just provides the juice for it. Except if this is the case why would the reapers actually want to prevent its creation or activation, if it could cause the Synthesis they apparently desire? Or in a more general sense, the reapers knew of the Crucible. They must have been able to understand what it can do. What's to say they don't know how to use it for thier own ends, or that they weren't willing to do so?

The answer is simple. The reapers are allowing the cycle to build the Crucible so that they can use it for thier own ends. Namely, to draw the entire military might of the galaxy into one killzone so that they can be decimated by overwhelming firepower or pacified through indoctrination. If the Crucible is a weapon (physical or mental) then the reapers will turn it against the cycle. If the Crucible is a dud the cycle will have wasted time and resources on a dud instead of building warships. And the reapers wouldn't even have needed to put in any real effort, the cycle was glad enough to do the job for them.

By hammering its military might and converting it leaders, the reapers can finally pacify the council cycle and convince them to allow the harvest without resistance. It's a brilliant plan actually.

Sorry about the no paragraphs thing.  I forget when I type fast.  I see where you are coming from here though, and it is a question I have had as well.  No one really knows where the Crucible actually began being designed and we all know how willing Reapers are to provide solid answers for anything.

"You are organic, your minds will never understand, our logic is undeniable, we will succeed, blah blah blah..."  That is pretty much all Shepard has ever been able to get out of them.

Quick side note, Harbinger's death ray.  When "fighting" the Reaper destroyer on Rannoch if you get hit by its beam once, just once, or are caught in its blast radius, it is an instant death.  So what, Harbinger's beam needs an oil filter change or what?.  You never actually see the beam hit Shepard.  Think about it.  Do you?  Shepard grabs his head and hunches over as it is coming towards him, and then the screen whites out.  I'm just saying.   

Modifié par desert_beagle, 19 août 2012 - 05:52 .

[BansheeOwnage]

ozzydude66 wrote...

Bansheeownage: The codex says the reapers have more advenced Tech so yes they could have Scan Tech.

Yeah, well that could also mean they have a time machine, but time travel makes even less sense that reading minds. It doesn't even matter anyway, the codex saying "they have advanced tech" doesn't mean there is a premise for mind-reading in ME. At all.

[Rosewind]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

lol! I just had a brain fart.... looked at the title and was like OMG mark iii since when.... oh wait ....

Hey Rose! Nice job. Actually, I kind of had one too. I just realized last night that your picture is from LOTSB.

*Face palm* Come on Banshee I even told you it was ><

I know. That's why it's so bad.  On a completely different topic, did you know I ran into some people who were wondering if Miranda has a speech inpediment. That's even worse more ignorant than people thinking she's British! Sometimes I wonder if Americans have heard of Australia...

Tell me about it .... I always get asked if I am english but thats probly cause I talk properly lol and do not use slang

[BansheeOwnage]

desert_beagle wrote...

Quick side note, Harbinger's death ray.  When "fighting" the Reaper destroyer on Rannoch if you get hit by its beam once, just once, or are caught in its blast radius, it is an instant death.  So what, Harbinger's beam needs an oil filter change or what?.  You never actually see the beam hit Shepard.  Think about it.  Do you?  Shepard grabs his head and hunches over as it is coming towards him, and then the screen whites out.  I'm just saying.   

Yeah, it is kind of hard to beat a stream of molten metal travelling at relativistic speeds using only your face.

Also, to add to your point, Harbinger bullseyes all of the vehicles and soldiers around you, but conveniently misses Shepard on multiple occasions. Suggestive?

[Codename_Code]

Drewton wrote...

desert_beagle wrote...

What do you think they are trying to do with Shepard? That is what the Reapers are all about, at the end of ME2 Harbinger says, "We are your salvation through destruction."

"We will bring your species into harmony with our own."

"Your species will be raised to a new existance."

SYNTHESIS

I think they want shepard to be the mind of their new reaper. Maybe harbinger and sovereign an the other reapers personalities are just the shepards from the previous cycles.

[desert_beagle]

Codename_Code wrote...

Drewton wrote...

desert_beagle wrote...

What do you think they are trying to do with Shepard? That is what the Reapers are all about, at the end of ME2 Harbinger says, "We are your salvation through destruction."

"We will bring your species into harmony with our own."

"Your species will be raised to a new existance."

SYNTHESIS

I think they want shepard to be the mind of their new reaper. Maybe harbinger and sovereign an the other reapers personalities are just the shepards from the previous cycles.

Bingo!  It makes sense to me.  Star child god Reaper punk thing even says that Shepard will die, but his/her essence, memories, and energy would be used to "create a new future" or something like that.  Sounds like the brain form of a Reaper to me.  

Maybe BioWare just painted themselves into a very sticky creative corner with the desparity of the story they were telling, and really had no way out other than what we have.  Devil's advocate there.

[CoolioThane]

Indoctrination is proven to exist, mind-reading is not. End