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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#11826
Hrothdane

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TJBartlemus wrote...

 So I was looking up the definition of Leviathan and here is what I have found:

Leviathan (/lɨˈvaɪ.əθən/; Hebrew: לִוְיָתָן, Modern Livyatan[/i] Tiberian Liwyāṯān[/i] ; "twisted, coiled"), is a sea monster referred to in the Bible. In Demonology, the Leviathan is one of the seven princes of Hell and its gatekeeper (see Hellmouth). The word has become synonymous with any large sea monster or creature. In literature it refers to great whales, and in Modern Hebrew, it means simply "whale." It is described extensively in Job 41 and mentioned in Isaiah 27:1.

"... Later Jewish sources describe Leviathan as a dragon who lives over the Sources of the Deep and who, along with the male land-monster Behemoth, will be served up to the righteous at the end of time."

"The body of the Leviathan, especially his eyes, possesses great illuminating power. This was the opinion of R. Eliezer, who, in the course of a voyage in company with R. Joshua, explained to the latter, when frightened by the sudden appearance of a brilliant light, that it probably proceeded from the eyes of the Leviathan. He referred his companion to the words of Job xli. 18: "By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning" (B. B. l.c.). However, in spite of his supernatural strength, the leviathan is afraid of a small worm called "kilbit", which clings to the gills of large fish and kills them (Shab. 77b)."

"The Leviathan of the Middle Ages was used as an image of Satan, endangering both God's creatures—by attempting to eat them—and God's creation—by threatening it with upheaval in the waters of Chaos. St. Thomas Aquinas described Leviathan as the demon of envy, first in punishing the corresponding sinners. (Secunda Secundae Question 36) Leviathan became associated with, and may originally have referred to, the visual motif of the Hellmouth, a monstrous animal into whose mouth the damned disappear at the Last Judgement, found in Anglo-Saxon art from about 800, and later all over Europe."

"In Satanism, according to the author of The Satanic Bible[/i], Anton Szandor LaVey, Leviathan represents the element of Water and the direction of West." 

Just some really interesting things about the mythology around Leviathan. Most of what I quoted I believe that BioWare (mythology oriented in producing ME3) will no doubt include to some extent. Something interesting is that in most or all interpretations of Leviathan it decribes it as evil and in league with the devil, being the devil, or the gatekeeper of Hell. So I don't think that Leviathan in ME3 will be a good thing. Potentially even be a trap. 

Just material and stuff to think about. :lol:


Actually, TJ, you misunderstand Satan's role in the Hebrew tradition. He is NOT a being of evil, in opposition to the Jewish god. He operates more like a cynical chief prosecutor, like in the Book of Job. He tests mortals and gives them trials to overcome, all in accordance with Yahweh's plan.

In other words, the Hebrew mythology connection may actually hint at Leviathan testing Shepard to see if he/she is worthy of help, or something along those lines.

#11827
FreddyCast

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Hey guys, I have a question. When Shepard was knocked out unconscious by the wave proceeding from Object Rho, what kind of wave was it? Electromagnetic or something?

Modifié par FreddyCast, 19 août 2012 - 08:12 .


#11828
FFZero

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FreddyCast wrote...

Hey guys, I have a question. When Shepard was knocked out unconscious by the wave proceeding from Object Rho, what kind of wave was it? Electromagnetic or something?


It’s never been stated what it was but I’m inclined to believe it was a wave of dark energy.

#11829
FreddyCast

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I was hoping that someone who knew would tell me that it was electromagnetic b/c then it would be more proof that Shepard was being attacked with indoctrination attempts on his mind, since electromagnetic fields are part of Indoctrination.

#11830
paxxton

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FreddyCast wrote...

Hey guys, I have a question. When Shepard was knocked out unconscious by the wave proceeding from Object Rho, what kind of wave was it? Electromagnetic or something?

IMO electromagnetic (suggested by the Codex entry on Indoctrination).

#11831
Hrothdane

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FreddyCast wrote...

I was hoping that someone who knew would tell me that it was electromagnetic b/c then it would be more proof that Shepard was being attacked with indoctrination attempts on his mind, since electromagnetic fields are part of Indoctrination.


Copied from the codex via Mass Effect Wiki. Possibly relevant sections are bolded.
Dr. Amanda Kenson's scientific team has cataloged three major discoveries on the artifact encased in the 157-Golgotha asteroid.
First, the large artifact is rooted into the core of the asteroid and
has a barrier that is similar to but much more powerful than a biotic
stasis field
. This gives it an unnatural resilience to alteration or
damage and even prevents state-of-the-art laser drilling from extracting
the smallest piece for analysis.
Second, the object's interior is energetically active with a quantum stasis field rivaling that of Prothean technology found in mass relays.
Like those creations, it activates in response to threat, at which
point the artifact consumes a phenomenal amount of power. Dr. Kenson's
team believes the object draws power directly from dark matter, though
how is still unknown.
The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and
information on many different spectra
. One such pulse, suspected to be
similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches into Reaper territory. Another broadcast is infrasound, consistent with frequencies that trigger feelings of awe and fear in humans, a known factor in Reaper indoctrination.
Kenson's laboratory is filled with equipment dedicated to monitoring
any signal coming from the artifact in the hopes that some clue will
prove the Reapers' undoing before it's too late.

#11832
DJBare

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Reapers do not scan the mind, they tap in directly using nanite technology, the nanites are easy to contract when coming in contact with reaper tech, the longer the nanites are in the body the more they can access thought processes and emotions. read Redemption for an explanation.

Just putting that out there, they do NOT mind read indirectly.

#11833
paxxton

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I don't think that Object Rho electrocuted Shepard just for show.

Modifié par paxxton, 19 août 2012 - 08:27 .


#11834
Simon_Says

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FreddyCast wrote...

I was hoping that someone who knew
would tell me that it was electromagnetic b/c then it would be more
proof that Shepard was being attacked with indoctrination attempts on
his mind, since electromagnetic fields are part of
Indoctrination.


It's a pulse that looks eerily similar to Crucible shockwave, blueberry variant.

An EM pulse would unfortunately be invisible unless it was ionizing the atmosphere (in which case Shepard would have been crisped), and an auditory shockwave wouldn't produce the effect seen, and if we did see that we'd have to wonder about Shep's ears.

So it could be a dark energy/mass effect wave front similar to, say, the one Jack/Samara pulls off in the Collector Base. but it's probably something even weirder. Clarke's third law and all that.

By the way, that doesn't mean those invisible factors (EMR/auditory) couldn't have also played a role.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 19 août 2012 - 08:26 .


#11835
FFZero

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FreddyCast wrote...

I was hoping that someone who knew would tell me that it was electromagnetic b/c then it would be more proof that Shepard was being attacked with indoctrination attempts on his mind, since electromagnetic fields are part of Indoctrination.


Well Object Rho does broadcast signals and information on many different spectra according to the codex, you could argue that electromagnetic waves then come into play. 

Edit: Damn it! Ninja'd by Hrothdane

Modifié par FFZero, 19 août 2012 - 08:27 .


#11836
paxxton

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DJBare wrote...

Reapers do not scan the mind, they tap in directly using nanite technology, the nanites are easy to contract when coming in contact with reaper tech, the longer the nanites are in the body the more they can access thought processes and emotions. read Redemption for an explanation.

Just putting that out there, they do NOT mind read indirectly.

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

#11837
Simon_Says

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DJBare wrote...

Reapers do not scan the mind, they tap in directly using nanite technology, the nanites are easy to contract when coming in contact with reaper tech, the longer the nanites are in the body the more they can access thought processes and emotions. read Redemption for an explanation.

Just putting that out there, they do NOT mind read indirectly.

The prothean beacon explicitly didn't use nanites. It basically used souped-up MRI to plant the vision in Shepard's brain. Naturally, this tech could also be used to observe brain function. The reapers probably have technology even better than the protheans for this task.

Mind reading at a distance. It's possible. You just need the tech and a sufficiently sophisticated Universal Theory of Mind to pull it off. Engineering problems, not theoretical.

#11838
estebanus

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Hey, guys. How's it going?

#11839
DJBare

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Simon_Says wrote...
The prothean beacon explicitly didn't use nanites. It basically used souped-up MRI to plant the vision in Shepard's brain. Naturally, this tech could also be used to observe brain function. The reapers probably have technology even better than the protheans for this task.

Mind reading at a distance. It's possible. You just need the tech and a sufficiently sophisticated Universal Theory of Mind to pull it off. Engineering problems, not theoretical.

Not everything that works in one direction can necessarily work in reverse, you've shown you are pretty passionate about the ME universe so I have to assume you've read Redemption, the process is nanites in the body that communicate with the reapers using quantum entanglement, this means the reapers get access to thought and emotional process even while sitting out in dark space, that's your mind reading at a distance.

#11840
Vibez

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Guys, what do you think about this:

http://social.biowar...ndex/13744739/1

Modifié par Vibez, 19 août 2012 - 08:40 .


#11841
estebanus

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Vibez wrote...

Guys, what do you think about this:

http://social.biowar...ndex/13744739/1

Plfranke was already ranting about this yesterday.

#11842
Galifreya

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I am currently working on something involving planet/system names and what they mean. I've found some interesting information that I think you might want to see.

#11843
TJBartlemus

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Simon_Says wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Reapers do not scan the mind, they tap in directly using nanite technology, the nanites are easy to contract when coming in contact with reaper tech, the longer the nanites are in the body the more they can access thought processes and emotions. read Redemption for an explanation.

Just putting that out there, they do NOT mind read indirectly.

The prothean beacon explicitly didn't use nanites. It basically used souped-up MRI to plant the vision in Shepard's brain. Naturally, this tech could also be used to observe brain function. The reapers probably have technology even better than the protheans for this task.

Mind reading at a distance. It's possible. You just need the tech and a sufficiently sophisticated Universal Theory of Mind to pull it off. Engineering problems, not theoretical.


All our minds consist of are electric impulses and chemical reactions. I believe advanced tech would be able to translate that info from "reading" the mind into images like our brain does from our eyes. (So it reads the output of our brains similar to an MRI.) IT also goes both ways. If it can "read' from the mind it can also put stuff into the mind. To implant images it just sends electrical impulses that interact and mess with the chemical reactions/electric impulses in our minds and thus we see images that are not our memories.  

Prothean biology already naturally did this. When they were advanced enough they deduced what was going on and transfered that knowledge into tech to mimic the effects.

#11844
Hrothdane

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Vibez wrote...

Guys, what do you think about this:

http://social.biowar...ndex/13744739/1


I think we already discussed it.

Aside from far-out speculation, we really can't determine anything concrete from mysterious twitter posts.

#11845
Hrothdane

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Gallifreya wrote...

I am currently working on something involving planet/system names and what they mean. I've found some interesting information that I think you might want to see.


More textual evidence is always a good thing.

#11846
TJBartlemus

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DJBare wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...
The prothean beacon explicitly didn't use nanites. It basically used souped-up MRI to plant the vision in Shepard's brain. Naturally, this tech could also be used to observe brain function. The reapers probably have technology even better than the protheans for this task.

Mind reading at a distance. It's possible. You just need the tech and a sufficiently sophisticated Universal Theory of Mind to pull it off. Engineering problems, not theoretical.

Not everything that works in one direction can necessarily work in reverse, you've shown you are pretty passionate about the ME universe so I have to assume you've read Redemption, the process is nanites in the body that communicate with the reapers using quantum entanglement, this means the reapers get access to thought and emotional process even while sitting out in dark space, that's your mind reading at a distance.


True but Reapers don't just use nanides for indoctrination. They also use electric impulses and infrasonic/ultrasonic sound. So both are right. (PS. In the description of indoctrination it says it turns it's victims into transmitters of the Reaper signal. :blink:)

#11847
Hrothdane

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TJ!

Did you read my reply to your Leviathan info?

#11848
estebanus

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So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

#11849
DJBare

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TJBartlemus wrote...

True but Reapers don't just use nanides for indoctrination. They also use electric impulses and infrasonic/ultrasonic sound. So both are right. (PS. In the description of indoctrination it says it turns it's victims into transmitters of the Reaper signal. :blink:)

Electronic impulses and infrasound can be used to break down the resistance of the victim because of the effect they have, being exposed to infrasound for example can lead to feelings of severe depression.

#11850
TJBartlemus

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Hrothdane wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

I am currently working on something involving planet/system names and what they mean. I've found some interesting information that I think you might want to see.


More textual evidence is always a good thing.


I agree. It's also one of the seemingly unimportant details of the ME universe we haven't gone over yet. New material to speculate on is always encouraged!!! :happy: