80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Vibez]

Hrothdane wrote...

Vibez wrote...

Guys, what do you think about this:

http://social.biowar...ndex/13744739/1

I think we already discussed it.

Aside from far-out speculation, we really can't determine anything concrete from mysterious twitter posts.

Must have skipped that, thanks!

[DJBare]

estebanus wrote...

So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

Yeah, some of us have a bit of a problem with that, jumping the evolutionary process cannot be a good thing, we become what we are due to adversity, we grow, learn and evolve because of challenges, to suddenly go from organic to synthesis without the steps in between would be disastrous.

[SubAstris]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Basically. IT is true, because it has more evidence than any other interpretation I've seen. There is more evidence for IT than for the literal ending. That is a fact. You need to resort to plot-armour and poor writing to explain that. Not with IT though. Also, the literal interpretation requires more grasping-at-straws than IT. Much more.

Err....

Modifié par SubAstris, 19 août 2012 - 08:50 .

[plfranke]

Vibez wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

Vibez wrote...

Guys, what do you think about this:

http://social.biowar...ndex/13744739/1

I think we already discussed it.

Aside from far-out speculation, we really can't determine anything concrete from mysterious twitter posts.

Must have skipped that, thanks!

Actually, these aren't mysterious twitter posts. These are posts slapping all of the values of good story telling in the face. You guys are ignoring what is staring right at you.

Modifié par plfranke, 19 août 2012 - 08:51 .

[TJBartlemus]

Hrothdane wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 So I was looking up the definition of Leviathan and here is what I have found:

Leviathan (/lɨˈvaɪ.əθən/; Hebrew: לִוְיָתָן, Modern Livyatan[/i] Tiberian Liwyāṯān[/i] ; "twisted, coiled"), is a sea monster referred to in the Bible. In Demonology, the Leviathan is one of the seven princes of Hell and its gatekeeper (see Hellmouth). The word has become synonymous with any large sea monster or creature. In literature it refers to great whales, and in Modern Hebrew, it means simply "whale." It is described extensively in Job 41 and mentioned in Isaiah 27:1.

"... Later Jewish sources describe Leviathan as a dragon who lives over the Sources of the Deep and who, along with the male land-monster Behemoth, will be served up to the righteous at the end of time."

"The body of the Leviathan, especially his eyes, possesses great illuminating power. This was the opinion of R. Eliezer, who, in the course of a voyage in company with R. Joshua, explained to the latter, when frightened by the sudden appearance of a brilliant light, that it probably proceeded from the eyes of the Leviathan. He referred his companion to the words of Job xli. 18: "By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning" (B. B. l.c.). However, in spite of his supernatural strength, the leviathan is afraid of a small worm called "kilbit", which clings to the gills of large fish and kills them (Shab. 77b)."

"The Leviathan of the Middle Ages was used as an image of Satan, endangering both God's creatures—by attempting to eat them—and God's creation—by threatening it with upheaval in the waters of Chaos. St. Thomas Aquinas described Leviathan as the demon of envy, first in punishing the corresponding sinners. (Secunda Secundae Question 36) Leviathan became associated with, and may originally have referred to, the visual motif of the Hellmouth, a monstrous animal into whose mouth the damned disappear at the Last Judgement, found in Anglo-Saxon art from about 800, and later all over Europe."

"In Satanism, according to the author of The Satanic Bible[/i], Anton Szandor LaVey, Leviathan represents the element of Water and the direction of West." 

Just some really interesting things about the mythology around Leviathan. Most of what I quoted I believe that BioWare (mythology oriented in producing ME3) will no doubt include to some extent. Something interesting is that in most or all interpretations of Leviathan it decribes it as evil and in league with the devil, being the devil, or the gatekeeper of Hell. So I don't think that Leviathan in ME3 will be a good thing. Potentially even be a trap. 

Just material and stuff to think about. 

Actually, TJ, you misunderstand Satan's role in the Hebrew tradition. He is NOT a being of evil, in opposition to the Jewish god. He operates more like a cynical chief prosecutor, like in the Book of Job. He tests mortals and gives them trials to overcome, all in accordance with Yahweh's plan.

In other words, the Hebrew mythology connection may actually hint at Leviathan testing Shepard to see if he/she is worthy of help, or something along those lines.

That is only one tradition and there are many interpretations of the mythology around Leviathan. So you are correct. BioWare may very well include some type of test. Being as Leviathan is underwater the name also fits cause it describes the Leviathan as a beast of the seas. And there are some cultures that relate to the Leviathan as something evil, not just as a test of the wills. Even the devil in Christian interpretation has Satan as evil and constantly testing to corrupt individuals. There are many interpretations and all are valid in my opinion.

PS. I did see your post. 

[Hrothdane]

DJBare wrote...

estebanus wrote...

So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

Yeah, some of us have a bit of a problem with that, jumping the evolutionary process cannot be a good thing, we become what we are due to adversity, we grow, learn and evolve because of challenges, to suddenly go from organic to synthesis without the steps in between would be disastrous.

Oh, that silly Jessica and her creepy love of synthesis.

I would like to say something thoughtful and respectful to synthesizers about how synthesis sucks and it becoming the canon ending would suck even harder, but all I can think of right now is:

****. THAT. ****.

[estebanus]

DJBare wrote...

estebanus wrote...

So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

Yeah, some of us have a bit of a problem with that, jumping the evolutionary process cannot be a good thing, we become what we are due to adversity, we grow, learn and evolve because of challenges, to suddenly go from organic to synthesis without the steps in between would be disastrous.

Exactly. Synthesis is only good if it occurs naturally, on the terms of organics themselves. Otherwise, they're not ready. If organic life comes to synthesis on its own terms and choices, then it is indeed a beautiful thing, because it would be everything organic life stands for: Going beyond its own limitations, creating new things to help making life a little easier.

However, forcing synthesis on organic life before they're ready is abhorrent. It'd be like giving nuclear weapons to cavemen. No matter what the Catalyst says, organic life is only ready for synthesis if they came to this decision themselves.

[MaximizedAction]

estebanus wrote...

So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

And I agree with you on that. If it occures naturally (i.e. especially without the Reapers accomplishing that) I'd also be ok with that.

edit: I mean EC-Synthesis, not pre-EC-Synthesis, because I think the EC version doesn't sell itself as the ultimate peace and the total amalgamation. As far as I understood (and remember) it, it just means that organics adopt synthetic parts thoroughly and sythetics 'get' organics.
But, if that's not what it is, then...ah well, you know...

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 19 août 2012 - 08:58 .

[FifthBeatle]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

I am currently working on something involving planet/system names and what they mean. I've found some interesting information that I think you might want to see.

More textual evidence is always a good thing.

I agree. It's also one of the seemingly unimportant details of the ME universe we haven't gone over yet. New material to speculate on is always encouraged!!! :happy:

I think that themes and names are a good thing to take a closer look at. I know Doomsday and Simon have been pushing for this for a while, and Otter has done some good work with literary references throughout the series. In fact, I posted something earlier about my thoughts on the Crucible and its name.

Names seem especially important when you consider their place in storytelling. Sometimes a name is just a name, but sometimes they carry a lot of weight. For me, the fact that the two big MacGuffins in ME3 are called the Crucible and Catalyst can't be a coicidence. 

[TJBartlemus]

DJBare wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

True but Reapers don't just use nanides for indoctrination. They also use electric impulses and infrasonic/ultrasonic sound. So both are right. (PS. In the description of indoctrination it says it turns it's victims into transmitters of the Reaper signal. )

Electronic impulses and infrasound can be used to break down the resistance of the victim because of the effect they have, being exposed to infrasound for example can lead to feelings of severe depression.

True.  It can also cause headaches. Indoctrination doesn't revolve or depend entirely on nanides though. Indoctrination at it's base is just getting an individual to agree with the Reapers plans and ideals. No nanides required. This process takes longer however....

[Hrothdane]

plfranke wrote...

Vibez wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

Vibez wrote...

Guys, what do you think about this:

http://social.biowar...ndex/13744739/1

I think we already discussed it.

Aside from far-out speculation, we really can't determine anything concrete from mysterious twitter posts.

Must have skipped that, thanks!

Actually, these aren't mysterious twitter posts. These are posts slapping all of the values of good story telling in the face. You guys are ignoring what is staring right at you.

If it isn't mysterious, why did you make a thread asking what people thought it meant?

Last I checked, Jessica Merizan didn't write the story, so her failure to understand good writing is irrelevant or at best weak circumstantial evidence.

[estebanus]

Hrothdane wrote...

DJBare wrote...

estebanus wrote...

So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

Yeah, some of us have a bit of a problem with that, jumping the evolutionary process cannot be a good thing, we become what we are due to adversity, we grow, learn and evolve because of challenges, to suddenly go from organic to synthesis without the steps in between would be disastrous.

Oh, that silly Jessica and her creepy love of synthesis.

I would like to say something thoughtful and respectful to synthesizers about how synthesis sucks and it becoming the canon ending would suck even harder, but all I can think of right now is:

****. THAT. ****.

You misunderstand. Synthesis is disgusting and abhorrent if Shepard chooses it, because life isn't ready. They didn't earn this technology. They didn't invent it themselves.

However, Synthesis is the inevitable result of the evolutionary progression of organic life. It will at some point be invented by organics, and then they'd finally be ready for it.

[estebanus]

Humanity itself has already started down the path of synthesis now, in real life. synthetic transplants is basically just another form of synthesis. Synthesis is when mankind transcends the earthly limitation of flesh and bone to become something greater. It is truly inevitable.

[TJBartlemus]

FifthBeatle wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

I am currently working on something involving planet/system names and what they mean. I've found some interesting information that I think you might want to see.

More textual evidence is always a good thing.

I agree. It's also one of the seemingly unimportant details of the ME universe we haven't gone over yet. New material to speculate on is always encouraged!!! :happy:

I think that themes and names are a good thing to take a closer look at. I know Doomsday and Simon have been pushing for this for a while, and Otter has done some good work with literary references throughout the series. In fact, I posted something earlier about my thoughts on the Crucible and its name.

Names seem especially important when you consider their place in storytelling. Sometimes a name is just a name, but sometimes they carry a lot of weight. For me, the fact that the two big MacGuffins in ME3 are called the Crucible and Catalyst can't be a coicidence. 

Eragon series on true names:

"Because the Ancient Language allows for objects to be controlled through their names, the knowledge of one's true name is a source of great power. Brom warned Eragon that if another person learned his true name, that person would be able to control him."

:innocent:

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 19 août 2012 - 09:02 .

[plfranke]

Hrothdane wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Vibez wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

Vibez wrote...

Guys, what do you think about this:

http://social.biowar...ndex/13744739/1

I think we already discussed it.

Aside from far-out speculation, we really can't determine anything concrete from mysterious twitter posts.

Must have skipped that, thanks!

Actually, these aren't mysterious twitter posts. These are posts slapping all of the values of good story telling in the face. You guys are ignoring what is staring right at you.

If it isn't mysterious, why did you make a thread asking what people thought it meant?

Last I checked, Jessica Merizan didn't write the story, so her failure to understand good writing is irrelevant or at best weak circumstantial evidence.

Something doesn't have to be mysterious for people to discuss it. Why do you continue to discuss a theory that is obviously not true?

[FreddyCast]

estebanus wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

DJBare wrote...

estebanus wrote...

So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

Yeah, some of us have a bit of a problem with that, jumping the evolutionary process cannot be a good thing, we become what we are due to adversity, we grow, learn and evolve because of challenges, to suddenly go from organic to synthesis without the steps in between would be disastrous.

Oh, that silly Jessica and her creepy love of synthesis.

I would like to say something thoughtful and respectful to synthesizers about how synthesis sucks and it becoming the canon ending would suck even harder, but all I can think of right now is:

****. THAT. ****.

You misunderstand. Synthesis is disgusting and abhorrent if Shepard chooses it, because life isn't ready. They didn't earn this technology. They didn't invent it themselves.

However, Synthesis is the inevitable result of the evolutionary progression of organic life. It will at some point be invented by organics, and then they'd finally be ready for it.

I don't think so. I'm taking Javik's side and say that synthetic "evolution" is nothing more than an upgrade. I don't see my latptop turning into a giant super computer any time soon. Synthesis is nothing more than space magic.

[Hrothdane]

estebanus wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

DJBare wrote...

estebanus wrote...

So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

Yeah, some of us have a bit of a problem with that, jumping the evolutionary process cannot be a good thing, we become what we are due to adversity, we grow, learn and evolve because of challenges, to suddenly go from organic to synthesis without the steps in between would be disastrous.

Oh, that silly Jessica and her creepy love of synthesis.

I would like to say something thoughtful and respectful to synthesizers about how synthesis sucks and it becoming the canon ending would suck even harder, but all I can think of right now is:

****. THAT. ****.

You misunderstand. Synthesis is disgusting and abhorrent if Shepard chooses it, because life isn't ready. They didn't earn this technology. They didn't invent it themselves.

However, Synthesis is the inevitable result of the evolutionary progression of organic life. It will at some point be invented by organics, and then they'd finally be ready for it.

I understand perfectly. If you want to take it as a given that it is inevitable, go ahead. I don't. Maybe if the games created a logical progression that would lead me to such a conclusion I would agree, but as it is, synthesis comes out of left field.

[estebanus]

FreddyCast wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

DJBare wrote...

estebanus wrote...

So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

Yeah, some of us have a bit of a problem with that, jumping the evolutionary process cannot be a good thing, we become what we are due to adversity, we grow, learn and evolve because of challenges, to suddenly go from organic to synthesis without the steps in between would be disastrous.

Oh, that silly Jessica and her creepy love of synthesis.

I would like to say something thoughtful and respectful to synthesizers about how synthesis sucks and it becoming the canon ending would suck even harder, but all I can think of right now is:

****. THAT. ****.

You misunderstand. Synthesis is disgusting and abhorrent if Shepard chooses it, because life isn't ready. They didn't earn this technology. They didn't invent it themselves.

However, Synthesis is the inevitable result of the evolutionary progression of organic life. It will at some point be invented by organics, and then they'd finally be ready for it.

I don't think so. I'm taking Javik's side and say that synthetic "evolution" is nothing more than an upgrade. I don't see my latptop turning into a giant super computer any time soon. Synthesis is nothing more than space magic.

No, synthesis isn't when a machine becomes alive. Synthesis is when organic life decides to better itself by the implementation of synthetic implants.

What you see in the endings is indeed space magic. Because that itself is not how synthesis works.

Modifié par estebanus, 19 août 2012 - 09:08 .

[estebanus]

Hrothdane wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

DJBare wrote...

estebanus wrote...

So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

Yeah, some of us have a bit of a problem with that, jumping the evolutionary process cannot be a good thing, we become what we are due to adversity, we grow, learn and evolve because of challenges, to suddenly go from organic to synthesis without the steps in between would be disastrous.

Oh, that silly Jessica and her creepy love of synthesis.

I would like to say something thoughtful and respectful to synthesizers about how synthesis sucks and it becoming the canon ending would suck even harder, but all I can think of right now is:

****. THAT. ****.

You misunderstand. Synthesis is disgusting and abhorrent if Shepard chooses it, because life isn't ready. They didn't earn this technology. They didn't invent it themselves.

However, Synthesis is the inevitable result of the evolutionary progression of organic life. It will at some point be invented by organics, and then they'd finally be ready for it.

I understand perfectly. If you want to take it as a given that it is inevitable, go ahead. I don't. Maybe if the games created a logical progression that would lead me to such a conclusion I would agree, but as it is, synthesis comes out of left field.

Of course it is disgusting as it is! Shepard forces a choice on the galaxy that they aren't ready for! Not by a long shot.

Organic life is first ready for synthesis if they themselves were the ones to achieve it, on their own terms.

So yes, as it is, Synthesis is still a horrible option. That'snot what I disagree with. What I'm saying is, that it is only good when organic life itself achieves it!

[DJBare]

estebanus wrote...
However, forcing synthesis on organic life before they're ready is abhorrent. It'd be like giving nuclear weapons to cavemen. No matter what the Catalyst says, organic life is only ready for synthesis if they came to this decision themselves.

It cannot even be their decision, the evolutionary process takes place over 100s of 1000s of years and the changes are so subtle as to go unnoticed, mainly because we have had time to adapt to those changes.
Even if the entire galaxy were unanimous to go synthesis over night, they would have skipped the adaptation process and that's why I cannot buy into instant synthesis.

[Galifreya]

It's going to take a day or two to compile completely, but the planet names the game goes out of it's way to tell you the meaning of are interesting on their own.

At the moment I'm looking at something called "dreamtime mythology". Thee is an entire system named after gods/goddesses in that particular mythology.

[FreddyCast]

estebanus wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

DJBare wrote...

estebanus wrote...

So, as you all may know, Jessica Merizan said at GamesCom that if they'd make a sequel to Mass Effect, Synthesis will have already occured, either because of Shepard, or because of it occuring naturally.
This actually makes me pretty happy, and this is actually a good thing, but only if it wasn't Shepard who chose it. I'll make a thread about this idea tomorrow, because I'm going to bed soon.

Yeah, some of us have a bit of a problem with that, jumping the evolutionary process cannot be a good thing, we become what we are due to adversity, we grow, learn and evolve because of challenges, to suddenly go from organic to synthesis without the steps in between would be disastrous.

Oh, that silly Jessica and her creepy love of synthesis.

I would like to say something thoughtful and respectful to synthesizers about how synthesis sucks and it becoming the canon ending would suck even harder, but all I can think of right now is:

****. THAT. ****.

You misunderstand. Synthesis is disgusting and abhorrent if Shepard chooses it, because life isn't ready. They didn't earn this technology. They didn't invent it themselves.

However, Synthesis is the inevitable result of the evolutionary progression of organic life. It will at some point be invented by organics, and then they'd finally be ready for it.

I don't think so. I'm taking Javik's side and say that synthetic "evolution" is nothing more than an upgrade. I don't see my latptop turning into a giant super computer any time soon. Synthesis is nothing more than space magic.

No, synthesis isn't when a machine becomes alive. Synthesis is when organic life decides to better itself by the implementation of synthetic implants.

But that's not the "inevitable result of the evolutionary progression of life". Implementation of synthetic implants are only for when it needs to replace organoc functions that have failed for some reason. It's for the betterment of those who cannot live a normal life.

[Hrothdane]

Estabanus,

You are not listening to what I was saying. I'm saying even IF the galaxy made synthesis happen on its own, I would not feel satisfied with it because I don't think there is enough evidence to conclusively say it is inevitable, and the story itself was not building to such a conclusion.

[Simon_Says]

DJBare wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...
The prothean beacon explicitly didn't use nanites. It basically used souped-up MRI to plant the vision in Shepard's brain. Naturally, this tech could also be used to observe brain function. The reapers probably have technology even better than the protheans for this task.

Mind reading at a distance. It's possible. You just need the tech and a sufficiently sophisticated Universal Theory of Mind to pull it off. Engineering problems, not theoretical.

Not everything that works in one direction can necessarily work in reverse, you've shown you are pretty passionate about the ME universe so I have to assume you've read Redemption, the process is nanites in the body that communicate with the reapers using quantum entanglement, this means the reapers get access to thought and emotional process even while sitting out in dark space, that's your mind reading at a distance.

I haven't read any of the novels actually. Just played the games and read some of the comics. But I'm more or less aware of what happened to Paul Grayson. The problem is that as far as I'm aware that process more resembled huskification than indoctrination: hijacking the nervous system rather than psychological readjustment. I'll go find it though and take a gander.

Nanotechnological infection is a vector for indoctrination, I agree. But I think that it's just one method out of many.

By the way, interesting reading.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 19 août 2012 - 09:15 .

[estebanus]

DJBare wrote...

estebanus wrote...
However, forcing synthesis on organic life before they're ready is abhorrent. It'd be like giving nuclear weapons to cavemen. No matter what the Catalyst says, organic life is only ready for synthesis if they came to this decision themselves.

It cannot even be their decision, the evolutionary process takes place over 100s of 1000s of years and the changes are so subtle as to go unnoticed, mainly because we have had time to adapt to those changes.
Even if the entire galaxy were unanimous to go synthesis over night, they would have skipped the adaptation process and that's why I cannot buy into instant synthesis.

That's what I'm saying! It will take centuries. Millenia, perhaps. But when organic life finally has achieved Synthesis by itself, then they're ready. Synthesis is not something that can occur from one day to the other.

They have to discover Synthesis by themselves. They can't get it from someone else, otherwise they're not ready.