80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

I'm back guys! Page 5001! Yeah! And this is really I great discussion we have going here. Seriously the best I've read in a while!

Edit: Hell yeah top of page too! I'm just feeling great right now! Bring it on!

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 21 août 2012 - 05:50 .

[Hrothdane]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Hdane

He said do not plan

Fixed. 

I hate typing posts on my phone : /

[BansheeOwnage]

Hrothdane wrote...
*snip*
While it may not offer deductive proof of IT, Occam's Razor is a powerful and elegant heuristic model that gives strong evidence towards the conclusions of IT.

Well, you make some great points, but remember, Occam's Razor doesn't apply to fiction, because complexities are intentional, so it doesn't matter that much anyway. What I'll take from what you just said is this: IT makes more sense, and is therefore more correct than a literal interpretation. That I agree with. Now this is me talking:
IT is the ending. "Literal" is an interpretation.

[Hrothdane]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...
*snip*
While it may not offer deductive proof of IT, Occam's Razor is a powerful and elegant heuristic model that gives strong evidence towards the conclusions of IT.

Well, you make some great points, but remember, Occam's Razor doesn't apply to fiction, because complexities are intentional, so it doesn't matter that much anyway. What I'll take from what you just said is this: IT makes more sense, and is therefore more correct than a literal interpretation. That I agree with. Now this is me talking:
IT is the ending. "Literal" is an interpretation.

I've seen people attempt to invoke Occam's Razor to support a literalist interpretation, so that was my rebuttal. You got the main idea.

[BansheeOwnage]

desert_beagle wrote...

We in this forum know that is simply not the case.  I'm not sure if my perspective is unique, but I never played any of these games until last month.  Literally.  I picked up ME1 and 2 because of all the fuss surrounding ME3 and I'm a stickler for starting something at the very beginning.

Not exactly the same, but I am also fairly new to it. I played all 3 games in a row starting about 3 days before launch. I mean, even after playing them just before, and not really absorbing them fully at all, being completely new to the series I still knew something was seriously off and picked destroy, which I am kind of proud of. I think Hrothdane is new to the series to, that makes 3 of us on 1 page. The reason were all here is the same. As Hrothdane put it, "We follow the evidence. Nothing else matters."

I also think that you and I both being sticklers for starting things at the beginning is extremely important. It means we're the kind of people who appreciate something in its entirety. Who bother to pay attention to things. That's why were all here. That's what makes us great, and unfortunately, we seem to be the minority.

[spotlessvoid]

Hrothdane....good point. It certainly gives the appearance of criminality though, unfair in how it potentially affects the jury's perception of the defendant and the impact it can have on the verdict of the specific crime the defendant stands accused of.

I think your overall point is true, but differing situational variables can make that more or less pertinent.

[BansheeOwnage]

desert_beagle wrote...

 I will say that we know for a fact that the Reapers don't want to be controlled by any other force but themselves.  Sanctuary on Horizon proves that.  TIM may have been indoctrinated, but he got too close to allowing other humans the ability to actually control the Reapers.
That is why the Reapers attacked Sanctuary.  
The conversation with Starbrat should have gone like this:
Starbrat: Wake up!

Shepard: Who the heck are you?!

Starbrat: I'm the Catalyst.

Shepard: Really?  Well then lets light this mother and burn them Reaper suckas!

Starbrat: I can't do that.

Shepard: Why the heck not?!  It's your job!  Hey wait you kind of look like that kid I saw get wasted on earth.  I've also seen you in my dreams.  Wait a minute, I'm not bleeding profusely from an abdominal arterial wound any more.  How did I even get here?

Starbrat:  There is no time to explain.  The Reapers are my solution.

Shepard: Solution to what?

Starbrat: Chaos.  Synthetics will always destroy organic life.  I created the cycle to stop that from happening.

Shepard: The Reapers look pretty synthetic to me and they seem to be doing a whole lot of wiping out all organic life in the galaxy right now, so I'm calling the BS card on ya there buddy.

Starbrat:  Fine.  The crucible changed me, and the fact that you are standing here shows my solution will no longer work anymore.

Shepard:  Wait, wait, wait...hold on.  Where did you say you were from again?

Starbrat: I was created to study the relationship between organic and synthetic life.

Shepard:  So you are an AI.  What happened to your creators?

Starbrat: They became the first true Reaper.  They were unwilling.

Shepard:  Oh wait.  I get it now.  You are synthetic.

Starbrat: Yes

Shepard:  You were created to study the relationship between synthetic and organic life, and you came to the conclusion that synthetics will always destroy organics.

Starbrat: Yes

Shepard: So to stop that, you, a synthetic, killed off all of your organic creators somehow in order to prove your theory correct?

Starbrat: No....Yes...wait..um...

Shepard:  You rebelled against your organic creators because you concluded that eventually they would have no use for you so out of a desperate act of self preservation you destroyed them first, and have done so for millions of years to prevent any other form of organic life from destroying you, is that it?

Starbrat:  Do you want to control us?

Shepard:  Your guy Harbinger just blew me halfway to Hades and now you're asking me if I want to control you?  Why didn't you just give The Illusive Man control?  This would have ended much quicker.

Starbrat: Umm...

Shepard: Could it be that you don't want to be controlled and you're just trying to fool me into sticking my fingers in that light socket over there?

Starbrat: Well you could jump into this beam in the middle and merge all organic and synthetic life into a new life form.

Shepard: Kind of like when a Reaper melts down organic components into a paste and uses them to build a new Reaper?

Starbrat: Uhh..well..we...my logic is undeniable.

Shepard:  Where's the f******* kill switch?

This... this is just halarious!  This is my vision of the IT reveal actually. We steadily unlock more dialogue options with the kid until we can basically say this, then we get the IT reveal. The refuse ending was the first step. We got to disagree with him. Now we need to be able to argue with him. To contradict what he says; to counter. We need to bring up the Geth/Quarian peace. You know, the thing that, when we brought it up with the reaper on Rannoch, seemed to convince it to kill itself. My personal theory on that, is that we essentially convinced it that it was indoctrinated. We've done it before, with Saren and TIM. We told them what they really were, and the only way to fix it was destruction.

[desert_beagle]

What's funny is that even though the EC was released before I even got ME3, I chose not to download it in order to play the game as it came upon original release with my character intact. I figured that would be the only way to really compare my notes on everything else I had learned from the series and put it towards the end. Based on what info I had, and even with low EMS I chose destroy.

The reason being, if it were in fact real, if I wiped out everything in the galaxy, it still means that the Reapers are no longer a threat to any other species that follows. Our cycle may have ended, but that is ultimately a sacrifice that I would be willing to make to ensure that life in the next cycle could continue without a threat of certain doom in 50,000 years.

[jgibson14352]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

desert_beagle wrote...

We in this forum know that is simply not the case.  I'm not sure if my perspective is unique, but I never played any of these games until last month.  Literally.  I picked up ME1 and 2 because of all the fuss surrounding ME3 and I'm a stickler for starting something at the very beginning.

Not exactly the same, but I am also fairly new to it. I played all 3 games in a row starting about 3 days before launch. I mean, even after playing them just before, and not really absorbing them fully at all, being completely new to the series I still knew something was seriously off and picked destroy, which I am kind of proud of. I think Hrothdane is new to the series to, that makes 3 of us on 1 page. The reason were all here is the same. As Hrothdane put it, "We follow the evidence. Nothing else matters."

I also think that you and I both being sticklers for starting things at the beginning is extremely important. It means we're the kind of people who appreciate something in its entirety. Who bother to pay attention to things. That's why were all here. That's what makes us great, and unfortunately, we seem to be the minority.

were definately not in the minority of people who hate the endings, but by far in the minority of people who still have hope that the series hasnt crashed and burned yet.
i started ME for the first time the day after christmas 2011, and after around 11 100% complete playthroughs in both games had the most agonizingly long wait of my life after ME3 was announced with the game still relatively fresh in my mind. the first time i played the ending of ME3, i thought something was up, but it didnt quite ring "this is messed up on purpose" tone for me. then again, i chose synthesis my first time. after a very lengthy amount of time questioning my intelligence, i stumbled on to this thread and lurked for who knows how long. but the thing i keep noticing is, i havent met a single person who is a hardcore ME fan that doesnt (or at least used to) believe in IT. its as if the people who are dedicated to the story are the only ones willing to pick up on stuff like this

Modifié par jgibson14352, 21 août 2012 - 06:14 .

[BansheeOwnage]

jgibson14352 wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

desert_beagle wrote...

We in this forum know that is simply not the case.  I'm not sure if my perspective is unique, but I never played any of these games until last month.  Literally.  I picked up ME1 and 2 because of all the fuss surrounding ME3 and I'm a stickler for starting something at the very beginning.

Not exactly the same, but I am also fairly new to it. I played all 3 games in a row starting about 3 days before launch. I mean, even after playing them just before, and not really absorbing them fully at all, being completely new to the series I still knew something was seriously off and picked destroy, which I am kind of proud of. I think Hrothdane is new to the series to, that makes 3 of us on 1 page. The reason were all here is the same. As Hrothdane put it, "We follow the evidence. Nothing else matters."

I also think that you and I both being sticklers for starting things at the beginning is extremely important. It means we're the kind of people who appreciate something in its entirety. Who bother to pay attention to things. That's why were all here. That's what makes us great, and unfortunately, we seem to be the minority.

were definately not in the minority of people who hate the endings, but by far in the minority of people who still have hope that the series hasnt crashed and burned yet.
i started ME for the first time the day after christmas 2011, and after around 11 100% complete playthroughs in both games had the most agonizingly long wait of my life after ME3 was announced with the game still relatively fresh in my mind. the first time i played the ending of ME3, i thought something was up, but it didnt quite ring "this is messed up on purpose" tone for me. then again, i chose synthesis my first time. after a very lengthy amount of time questioning my intelligence, i stumbled on to this thread and lurked for who knows how long. but the thing i keep noticing is, i havent met a single person who is a hardcore ME fan that doesnt (or at least used to) believe in IT. its as if the people who are dedicated to the story are the only ones willing to pick up on stuff like this

Yeah, that's more what I'm getting at. The minority I was talking about is the one who carefully looks at the games, the ones who pay attention, who are truly immersed. Soon after release, didn't almost everyone believe in IT?

[spotlessvoid]

I had to stop venting long enough to come up for air and watch acavyos video before i thought of IT. Didn't need it explained more than once though =)

[desert_beagle]

I find it strange as well that the IT is getting assaulted all over the place. The clues are all over the place and the writing is pretty much on the wall. It is even in the codex. Why on Earth or in dark space would BioWare spend so much time and effort pushing a story about villains who literally take control of a being by influencing their mind in the places they are most vulnerable?

If you think about it, Saren seemed like the type who was already on the way to Synthesis. He had a lot of mechanical parts, and I don't think those came after he met Sovereign. Sovereign just used that in his indoctrination.

TIM was all about control. He wanted control of the advancement and progression of humans in the galaxy, eventually wanting control of the whole galaxy and using whatever means at his disposal to get it. His indoctrination focused on allowing him to believe that he would always be the one in control. He firmly believes it during your final confrontation with him, unless you are able to convince him otherwise. Sadly I was not in my first play through.

Shepard on the other hand, is neither for nor against either of those things. The Reapers know they can't use a direct temptation of advancement to get Shepard. Shepard is a hero who feels responsible for the fate of the galaxy. Shepard and his/her direct friendships were the only ones who believed in the Reapers existence. He/She feels responsible for not doing enough to warn the galaxy to prepare. He/She wants an end to the conflict without losing anymore life along the way.

This is the string the Reapers are plucking at. If you control us you can watch over and protect the galaxy and no one else you care about will die. On the other hand you could merge all organic and synthetic life into a new life form, the final stage of evolution and you will save everyone. Or you could destroy us, but you will destroy many you care about as well, and we know you don't want that.

That is all indoctrination really is. The Reapers convince their servants to the core that they are absolutely doing the right thing according to their servants own prejudice.

[plfranke]

I know this is something we've talked about before, but there's not really anything else to speculate on, so here's my rant.

Why was the Crucible plotline made so utterly ridiculous? The best scientific minds on the planet don't know how it works or what it will do, but The Illusive Man does? I don't even have to go into the way we learn about the Crucible, and how terrible the writing is there. We didn't even have a way of getting the Crucible to the Citadel, but the Reapers bring it to Earth, and then they leave a beam on Earth leading right to the control panel. This isn't a trap, this isn't some clever ploy for indoctrination this is just terrible writing.

[BansheeOwnage]

desert_beagle wrote...

I find it strange as well that the IT is getting assaulted all over the place. The clues are all over the place and the writing is pretty much on the wall. It is even in the codex. Why on Earth or in dark space would BioWare spend so much time and effort pushing a story about villains who literally take control of a being by influencing their mind in the places they are most vulnerable?

If you think about it, Saren seemed like the type who was already on the way to Synthesis. He had a lot of mechanical parts, and I don't think those came after he met Sovereign. Sovereign just used that in his indoctrination. 

I have no idea why it does either. The sad part is so many people used to believe in IT but stopped for no apparent reason, or because they stopped believing that BW would add content for it. Whether they add content is irrelevent to the theory. If all the people who stopped believing it or stopped caring because they just had enough came back, I think it would be at least the majority of BSN, the actual fans.

[BansheeOwnage]

plfranke wrote...

I know this is something we've talked about before, but there's not really anything else to speculate on, so here's my rant.

Why was the Crucible plotline made so utterly ridiculous? The best scientific minds on the planet don't know how it works or what it will do, but The Illusive Man does? I don't even have to go into the way we learn about the Crucible, and how terrible the writing is there. We didn't even have a way of getting the Crucible to the Citadel, but the Reapers bring it to Earth, and then they leave a beam on Earth leading right to the control panel. This isn't a trap, this isn't some clever ploy for indoctrination this is just terrible writing.

Be a pessimist all you want, and bash Bioware all you want, but defaulting to bad writing gets us nowhere. I do agree with you to an extent about the crucible, but I think the only viable option for its existence is that it's a trap. Everything points to it. To quote Shepard:
"The reapers built the relays. It's all part of the same trap."

[desert_beagle]

Starbrat: Are you sure you want to destroy us?

Shepard: Yes

Starbrat: Well, you could save 15% or more on your car insurance by switching to Control or Synthesis

[Hrothdane]

jgibson14352
Of literalists they have full threescore.

spotlessvoid
There's five to one. Besides, they are all fresh.

jgibson14352
Goddess's arm strike with us! ‘Tis fearful odds.

BansheeOwnage
O, that we now had here

But one tenth of those men on the BSN

That do no work today.

Hrothdane
What’s he that wishes so?
My cousin BansheeOwnage? No, my fair cousin.
If we are marked to die, we are enough
To do our cause loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honor.
Goddess’s will, I pray thee wish not one man more.
By the Spirits, I am not covetous for Bioware Points,
Nor care I who doth read upon my posts;
It yearns me not if men my topics troll;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
But if it be a sin to covet truth,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, ‘faith, my coz, wish not a man from BSN.
Goddess’s peace, I would not lose so great an honor,
As one man more, methinks, would share from me,
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, BansheeOwnage, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart. His passport shall be made,
And Bioware Points for DLC put into his purse.
We would not argue in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to speculate with us.
This day is called the Feast of Shepard.
He that speculates this day, and shares his thoughts,
Will stand o’ tiptoe when the day is named
And rouse him at the name of Shepard.
He that shall write this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the Vigil feast his friends list,
And say ‘Tomorrow is Commander Shepard's Day:’
Then will he open Firefox and show his posts.
And say ‘These posts I made on Shepard’s Day.’
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
*But he’ll remember with advantages
What evidence he found that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as bookmarked sites,
Byne, Arian Dynas and Spotlessvoid,
FellishBeast and masster blasser, Simon_says and desert_beagle,
Be in their flowing Mountain Dew freshly remembered.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Shepard's Day shall ne’er go by,
From this day to the closing of the forums,
But we in it shall be remembered
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers
For he today that posts his thoughts with me
Shall be my brother, be he ne’er so trollish,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in BSN now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Commander Shepard's Day!


(Apologies if your name is not in here. Couldn't fit everyone:()

Modifié par Hrothdane, 21 août 2012 - 06:41 .

[jgibson14352]

Hrothdane wrote...

*snip*

im....im in awe right now... 
that was hilariously genius!

[BansheeOwnage]

jgibson14352 wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

*snip*

im....im in awe right now... 
that was hilariously genius!

Seconded. The battle of... BSN?

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers.

Now we must do what needs to be done. Endure. I know I will. Will you?

[desert_beagle]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

*snip*

im....im in awe right now... 
that was hilariously genius!

Seconded. The battle of... BSN?

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers.

Now we must do what needs to be done. Endure. I know I will. Will you?

If I die, I will die knowing that I did all I could to stop the literalists, naysayers and the Reapers!

[BansheeOwnage]

desert_beagle wrote...

Starbrat: Are you sure you want to destroy us?

Shepard: Yes

Starbrat: Well, you could save 15% or more on your car insurance by switching to Control or Synthesis

Oh and I think I know what happens when the galaxy's contract expires...

[plfranke]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

plfranke wrote...

I know this is something we've talked about before, but there's not really anything else to speculate on, so here's my rant.

Why was the Crucible plotline made so utterly ridiculous? The best scientific minds on the planet don't know how it works or what it will do, but The Illusive Man does? I don't even have to go into the way we learn about the Crucible, and how terrible the writing is there. We didn't even have a way of getting the Crucible to the Citadel, but the Reapers bring it to Earth, and then they leave a beam on Earth leading right to the control panel. This isn't a trap, this isn't some clever ploy for indoctrination this is just terrible writing.

Be a pessimist all you want, and bash Bioware all you want, but defaulting to bad writing gets us nowhere. I do agree with you to an extent about the crucible, but I think the only viable option for its existence is that it's a trap. Everything points to it. To quote Shepard:
"The reapers built the relays. It's all part of the same trap."

hmmm. Banshee, your post got me thinking. Do you know why exactly prompted the search of the Mars Archives?

[BansheeOwnage]

desert_beagle wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

*snip*

im....im in awe right now... 
that was hilariously genius!

Seconded. The battle of... BSN?

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers.

Now we must do what needs to be done. Endure. I know I will. Will you?

If I die, I will die knowing that I did all I could to stop the literalists, naysayers and the Reapers!

I hope it doesn't go that far.

[BansheeOwnage]

plfranke wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

plfranke wrote...

I know this is something we've talked about before, but there's not really anything else to speculate on, so here's my rant.

Why was the Crucible plotline made so utterly ridiculous? The best scientific minds on the planet don't know how it works or what it will do, but The Illusive Man does? I don't even have to go into the way we learn about the Crucible, and how terrible the writing is there. We didn't even have a way of getting the Crucible to the Citadel, but the Reapers bring it to Earth, and then they leave a beam on Earth leading right to the control panel. This isn't a trap, this isn't some clever ploy for indoctrination this is just terrible writing.

Be a pessimist all you want, and bash Bioware all you want, but defaulting to bad writing gets us nowhere. I do agree with you to an extent about the crucible, but I think the only viable option for its existence is that it's a trap. Everything points to it. To quote Shepard:
"The reapers built the relays. It's all part of the same trap."

hmmm. Banshee, your post got me thinking. Do you know why exactly prompted the search of the Mars Archives?

I believe it was Liara's VI, Glyph who found some sort of new data there or something. It was never very clear. What I do know is Hackett's image is mirrored for some reason when he orders you to Mars. Another thing: How did Cerberus find out? They got there even faster. Only thing I can think of is that the reapers told both parties. That also fits with no reaper off-button, and excuses a superweapon being discovered in literally the second mission.
Edit: Comparison:

Video

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 21 août 2012 - 07:00 .

[plfranke]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

plfranke wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

plfranke wrote...

I know this is something we've talked about before, but there's not really anything else to speculate on, so here's my rant.

Why was the Crucible plotline made so utterly ridiculous? The best scientific minds on the planet don't know how it works or what it will do, but The Illusive Man does? I don't even have to go into the way we learn about the Crucible, and how terrible the writing is there. We didn't even have a way of getting the Crucible to the Citadel, but the Reapers bring it to Earth, and then they leave a beam on Earth leading right to the control panel. This isn't a trap, this isn't some clever ploy for indoctrination this is just terrible writing.

Be a pessimist all you want, and bash Bioware all you want, but defaulting to bad writing gets us nowhere. I do agree with you to an extent about the crucible, but I think the only viable option for its existence is that it's a trap. Everything points to it. To quote Shepard:
"The reapers built the relays. It's all part of the same trap."

hmmm. Banshee, your post got me thinking. Do you know why exactly prompted the search of the Mars Archives?

I believe it was Liara's VI, Glyph who found some sort of new data there or something. It was never very clear. What I do know is Hackett's image is mirrored for some reason when he orders you to Mars. Another thing: How did Cerberus find out? They got there even faster. Only thing I can think of is that the reapers told both parties. That also fits with no reaper off-button, and excuses a superweapon being discovered in literally the second mission.

Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. I find it very suspicious that Cerberus got there at the exact same time, and it's never explained how TIM knew before the Alliance did. I need to find out how long Dr. Eva was there for. Illusive Man says the Alliance has known about the archives for years, well so as he probably so why hasn't he done anything with it?