80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Jadebaby]

Does anyone see a possibility for IT to play out through refuse?

[SixG90]

magnetite wrote...

There's even some hints that say that destroy is the best option.



Reapers still exist with control or synthesis, thus you haven't defeated them.

How true.

Also, using this pic to say a thing that bugged me from March, when I first noticed that.
Why the hell are there 2 Cerberus pen drive (sort of) in the loading screen? 
(Background on top of the paper pile and plugged in the terminal)

[Skeem]

Gallifreya wrote...

 I'm convinced someone is a traitor. Someone we don't know about yet.

Glyph??

[krogen117]

HagarIshay wrote...

krogen117 wrote...
Was Saren not half organic and machine? I believe he was and i remember him specifically saying something along the lines of "we can be become as one, all the strengths of both organics and machines and none of their weakness". That sounds like synthesis to me.

And with your first statement you have just strengthened my point.

Yes, Saren is partly machine and partly organic. On that aspect, synthesis and Saren's plans were the same. But synthesis doesn't mean submtting to the Reapers (unless IT is true, of course. In that case only Shepard submitted ). Synthesis also change the synthetics, not only organics. Saren didn't plan that.

How did my first statement strengthened your point? If Shepard chose either control or synthesis, the reasons behind it were different than Saren and TIM's. That means, that Shepard still doesn't agree with them even if s/he picked this choices.

Exactly, you have just strengthened my point once again.

By choosing those choices he is choosing them for exactly the same reasons as Saren and tim. they were both lied to, the reapers twisted the truth, saren believed hole heartedly that he could unite synthetics into organics to save everyone because that is what the reapers promised. God child said the same thing.

The illusive man on the other hand 100% believed he could control them, he thought it had come from his own mind just as saren did, because that is what indoctrination does, it makes you believe the ideas come from you and your heart when what is really happening is the reapers are twisting your ideologies and beliefs against your self.

i hope i made myself clear it's a difficult topic to get out in words

Modifié par krogen117, 21 août 2012 - 11:17 .

[Ageless Face]

krogen117 wrote...
Exactly, you have just strengthened my point once again.

By choosing those choices he is choosing them for exactly the same reasons as Saren and tim. they were both lied to, the reapers twisted the truth, saren believed hole heartedly that he could unite synthetics into organics to save everyone because that is what the reapers promised. God child said the same thing.

The illusive man on the other hand 100% believed he could control them, he thought it had come from his own mind just as saren did, because that is what indoctrination does, it makes you believe the ideas come from you and your heart when what is really happening is the reapers are twisting your ideologies and beliefs against your self.

i hope i made myself clear it's a difficult topic to get out in words

No, s/he doesn't do that for the same reasons of TIM and Saren. TIM wanted to control the Reapers to dominate everyone in the galaxy. Shepard- at least my Shepard- didn't control the Reapers because s/he wanted to dominate the galaxy. The sentence of "The Illusive Man was right after all" is talking about the idea of controlling the Reapers, not of what to do with them.

Saren wanted to submit to the Reapers. Shepard doesn't wanted that. S/he chose synthesis to advance organics and synthetics without the need to submit to anyone.

Wether or not the choices are what they seem to be or just a huge lie is up to debate, but it's perfectly resenable for Shepard to choose either synthesis or control, even with him/her disagreeing with TIM and Saren.

[Kulbelbolka]

Some thoughts on Synthesis.
As we all know, Reaper is megastructure with billions of organic minds uploaded in immortal (no aging) machine bodies
So - what about those billions of organic minds? Are they just backuped copies of original mind which stored on some Reaper's hard drive or what? Game's universe gives us an answer: all this minds are living in some kind of virtual reality, in their own world.

Wanna know how I come to this? There was some very interesting side story in Cerberus News in ME2 about unknown space ship driven by AI. It would be better if you will find it and read by yourself (story begins at August 11, 2185), but here is short story: there were some ancient civilization which uploaded their minds on quantum computer. They did it because their star begin to become supernova so the only way for them to stay "alive" was upload their minds to this ship and make him fly away from their star system.

Don't you recognise it? This story has same motives with so-called "Original ending by Drew Karpyshyn" also known as "Dark Energy plot".

Let's go back to synthesis. It's all about resolving conflict between Organics and Synthetics: organic type of mind in body without physical weaknesses. Isn't it the same thing as making Reapers?

My point is that by choosing synthesis Shepard somehow assists in getting this done - prepare organics for uploading their minds in new virtual world.

And this creepy green world with microchip traceries all around that we see at the end by choosing synthesis - it's not our world, it's already reaper's virtual reality.

If you want to go deeper in this idea read Cerberus News, there are some extra details that will make more sense.

[krogen117]

HagarIshay wrote...

krogen117 wrote...
Exactly, you have just strengthened my point once again.

By choosing those choices he is choosing them for exactly the same reasons as Saren and tim. they were both lied to, the reapers twisted the truth, saren believed hole heartedly that he could unite synthetics into organics to save everyone because that is what the reapers promised. God child said the same thing.

The illusive man on the other hand 100% believed he could control them, he thought it had come from his own mind just as saren did, because that is what indoctrination does, it makes you believe the ideas come from you and your heart when what is really happening is the reapers are twisting your ideologies and beliefs against your self.

i hope i made myself clear it's a difficult topic to get out in words

No, s/he doesn't do that for the same reasons of TIM and Saren. TIM wanted to control the Reapers to dominate everyone in the galaxy. Shepard- at least my Shepard- didn't control the Reapers because s/he wanted to dominate the galaxy. The sentence of "The Illusive Man was right after all" is talking about the idea of controlling the Reapers, not of what to do with them.

Saren wanted to submit to the Reapers. Shepard doesn't wanted that. S/he chose synthesis to advance organics and synthetics without the need to submit to anyone.

Wether or not the choices are what they seem to be or just a huge lie is up to debate, but it's perfectly resenable for Shepard to choose either synthesis or control, even with him/her disagreeing with TIM and Saren.

I see what you are saying, but we are all different, therefore saren and tims' own beliefs were used against them to indoctrinate them just as they are using shepards. the reasons behind it are irellevant, it's the same method used no matter the reason, the reaper indoctrination targets their weakness: the illusive mans lust for power, to control, shepards kind spirit, to save and sarens, well he is a bit more tricky to pin down his beliefs and morals. do you see wha i am getting at?

Modifié par krogen117, 21 août 2012 - 11:50 .

[Ageless Face]

krogen117 wrote...
I see what you are saying, but we are all different, therefore saren and tims' own beliefs were used against them to indoctrinate them just as they are using shepards. the reasons behind it are irellevant, it's the same method used no matter the reason, the reaper indoctrination targets their weakness: the illusive mans lust for power, to control, shepards kind spirit, to save and sarens, well he is a bit more tricky to pin down his beliefs and morals. do you see wha i am getting at?

I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't agree. The motives are important. In control, it's AI Shep who decides what to do with the Reapers, so it's Shepard's motives that apply here, not TIM's. Synthesis doesn't submit the galaxy to the Reapers, therefore it's not what Saren wanted, but what Shepard wants.  

All I am trying to say that it can make sense that Shepard will choose either control and Synthesis, without being indoctrinated.

[estebanus]

Hagar! I haven't seen you in a while!

[ghost9191]

HagarIshay wrote...

krogen117 wrote...
I see what you are saying, but we are all different, therefore saren and tims' own beliefs were used against them to indoctrinate them just as they are using shepards. the reasons behind it are irellevant, it's the same method used no matter the reason, the reaper indoctrination targets their weakness: the illusive mans lust for power, to control, shepards kind spirit, to save and sarens, well he is a bit more tricky to pin down his beliefs and morals. do you see wha i am getting at?

I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't agree. The motives are important. In control, it's AI Shep who decides what to do with the Reapers, so it's Shepard's motives that apply here, not TIM's. Synthesis doesn't submit the galaxy to the Reapers, therefore it's not what Saren wanted, but what Shepard wants.  

All I am trying to say that it can make sense that Shepard will choose either control and Synthesis, without being indoctrinated.

agree with you on control but disagree with you on synthesis

respect your opinion but you are clearly wrong

[estebanus]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

*snip*

im....im in awe right now... 
that was hilariously genius!

Seconded. The battle of... BSN?

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers.

Now we must do what needs to be done. Endure. I know I will. Will you?

Why am I not there? Waaaaaah!
You know I'd still fight with the ITers if it ever came to war!

EDIT: Aaww, I missed page 5000.

Modifié par estebanus, 21 août 2012 - 12:17 .

[Ageless Face]

estebanus wrote...

Hagar! I haven't seen you in a while!

Yeah, I didn't have much to add in here.

I lurked quite a bit, though 

[estebanus]

HagarIshay wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Hagar! I haven't seen you in a while!

Yeah, I didn't have much to add in here.

I lurked quite a bit, though 

Regardless, it's nice to see you around these parts once more!

[Drewton]

krogen117 wrote...

By choosing those choices he is choosing them for exactly the same reasons as Saren and tim. they were both lied to, the reapers twisted the truth, saren believed hole heartedly that he could unite synthetics into organics to save everyone because that is what the reapers promised. God child said the same thing.

The illusive man on the other hand 100% believed he could control them, he thought it had come from his own mind just as saren did, because that is what indoctrination does, it makes you believe the ideas come from you and your heart when what is really happening is the reapers are twisting your ideologies and beliefs against your self.

i hope i made myself clear it's a difficult topic to get out in words

INCEPTION

[pseudonymic]

Skeem wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

 I'm convinced someone is a traitor. Someone we don't know about yet.

Glyph??

liara. 

[ZerebusPrime]

pseudonymic wrote...

Skeem wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

 I'm convinced someone is a traitor. Someone we don't know about yet.

Glyph??

liara. 

Boo, the space hamster.

[TSA_383]

pseudonymic wrote...

Skeem wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

 I'm convinced someone is a traitor. Someone we don't know about yet.

Glyph??

liara. 

Liara's actually an interesting candidate to be a traitor.
I'm in two minds as to whether I think they'd actually do it - they've spent three games trying to make us connect with her character.
However, Liara being manipulated by Glyph?... Possible, not sure if likely...

plfranke wrote...

I have some speculations for you guys.
When playing through "From Ashes", Javik talks a lot of smack to
paragons. Paragon is perceived as doubt and fear. If you haven't made
renegade decisions in me3 he says he senses anxiety and fear in you,
because "the Reapers are winning". Also, at the very end of the
conversation if you take the renegade route when he says if you don't
care about killing the reapers you become a casualty, he will read you
again. You will say that the singular goal of the Normandy is destroying
the Reapers, and if you're paragon he will tell you that you're lying
and there is doubt behind your words. Sounds like foreshadowing that
"paragon" may not be the way to go.

That's an interesting take - I certainly see Javik as being something required to understand the full plot of the game once this is all done (in fact, I think we'll end up needing all the pay-DLC to see the full picture, such is EA...).
He appears to have some interesting lines in the leviathan DLC. I think I'll take him along on those missions

[Leonia]

It would certainly explain the dramatic change in Liara's personalty over the course of the trilogy and she does wear the thickest of plot armour, that has to make her important somehow.

Speaking of squads for Leviathan, what's everyone planning for the first run?

I'm going with Garrus and Vega, they seem to have some of the most interesting banter and I like seeing things "fresh" from Vega's point-of-view (and do you really think I wouldn't take Garrus on every mission?). Probably playing post-Thessia.

We should try to do as many "combinations" as possible to compare notes.

Modifié par leonia42, 21 août 2012 - 02:29 .

[FFZero]

Nice to see everyone’s spirits up after the doom and gloom from the other day. This is the reason why I stay in this thread, everyone’s positive for the most part.

leonia42 wrote...

Speaking of squads for Leviathan, what's everyone planning for the first run?

I'm going with Garrus and Vega, they seem to have some of the most interesting banter and I like seeing things "fresh" from Vega's point-of-view (and do you really think I wouldn't take Garrus on every mission?). Probably playing post-Thessia.

We should try to do as many "combinations" as possible to compare notes.

I’m debating between taking Garrus and Tali (Team Dextro FTW!) or Garrus and Vega. Garrus will always be in my squad, it's been that way for me since ME1. He's also my main LI and I want to see if LI's get different dialogue at various points in the DLC, which seems likely if some of the lines from the leak are true. I’m probably going to play it post-Rannoch.

Modifié par FFZero, 21 août 2012 - 03:14 .

[Gwyphon]

leonia42 wrote...

It would certainly explain the dramatic change in Liara's personalty over the course of the trilogy and she does wear the thickest of plot armour, that has to make her important somehow.

Speaking of squads for Leviathan, what's everyone planning for the first run?

I'm going with Garrus and Vega, they seem to have some of the most interesting banter and I like seeing things "fresh" from Vega's point-of-view (and do you really think I wouldn't take Garrus on every mission?). Probably playing post-Thessia.

We should try to do as many "combinations" as possible to compare notes.

Garrus and Liara, though it's hard for me to leave Tali behind

[Leonia]

I'm really curious as to what thoughts Javik and Liara will have regarding Leviathan, hopefully someone can report back on any interesting developments from them.

[cydoniawarrior]

leonia42 wrote...

I'm really curious as to what thoughts Javik and Liara will have regarding Leviathan, hopefully someone can report back on any interesting developments from them.

I somehow think Javik will want to kill it, if it is a reaper, which I asume it is

[FFZero]

cydoniawarrior wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I'm really curious as to what thoughts Javik and Liara will have regarding Leviathan, hopefully someone can report back on any interesting developments from them.

I somehow think Javik will want to kill it, if it is a reaper, which I asume it is

^ This. I fully expect him to say something along the lines “We’re going to need a bigger airlock...”

[MaximizedAction]

mrs.N7 wrote...

magnetite wrote...

There's even some hints that say that destroy is the best option.



Reapers still exist with control or synthesis, thus you haven't defeated them.

How true.

Also, using this pic to say a thing that bugged me from March, when I first noticed that.
Why the hell are there 2 Cerberus pen drive (sort of) in the loading screen? 
(Background on top of the paper pile and plugged in the terminal)

There are also Cerberus crewmembers on the start menue (behind the galaxy map, so look out for them before it loads).

That loading screen message demonstrates to me very well, how, once you learn...what you learn from the Guardian, the game seems to retcon itself in terms of what the 'correct choice' is:
Throughout ME1, ME2 and most of ME3 you and everyone else who is not indoc'd persues to destroy the Reapers, not matter what -- hence the loading screen.
However after the choice you learn that apparently, persuing Destroy is ignorant and stems from lack of insight -- hence, after you've done that, the final datapad message talks about defeating the Reaper threat.

[Arashi08]

Gallifreya wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Another thing: How did Cerberus find out? They got there even faster. Only thing I can think of is that the reapers told both parties.

You're forgetting about Dr Eva.

"Every war has it's traitors."

That quote was even in the demo. I think it's a really important line. In the demo, it even takes place right after you leave Earth...after seeing Starbinger get smoked.

It could be referring to Hackett, Shepard (at the end), the Leviathan (traitor to the Reapers), Udina (obviously, this is possibly a red herring to throw us off of the trail of a bigger traitor), any of your crew. I'm convinced someone is a traitor. Someone we don't know about yet. I think Leviathan is going to make Shepard question that. I can almost hear it asking Shepard about it in that deep Reaper growl.

My bet is definitely Hackett.

Ok I'm assuming you mean that you think Hackett is indoctrinated.  Can you please explain HOW he could be indoctrinated when there is never any indication in the lore that he was in direct contact with any reapers or reaper artifacts?  He's in space most of the time aboard his own ship, and since Reapers use infrasound to indoctrinate and soundwaves can't travel through the vacuum of space, I can't imagine how Hackett could be indoctrinated. 

imo it just seems like grasping at emergency induction ports whenever people point to Hackett being indoctrinated.  I think there are much better candidates for being indoctrinated in ME3 that people overlook.