80611 réponses à ce sujet

[desert_beagle]

Precisely. The only way to wipe out software is to destroy the platform it is actually stored on. The only way to kill EDI is to destroy the Normandy and the physical computer banks she is stored on. She even says that the body she took over will lose effective capabilities if she gets two far from the ship. EDI can't die unless the Normandy dies, and if the Normandy dies, then everyone on it dies.

[TJBartlemus]

Had entire post full of anger, and like feelings that I was going to post but decided not to. So I will just skip it and post this instead....

http://t1.gstatic.co...AhPWBwotTYNS0C3


It's nothing that people have posted on the last couple pages....regarding which looking at the last 24 hours speculations have been going well...and the analysis of the EC and original endings difference is quite brilliant. 

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 22 août 2012 - 01:49 .

[masster blaster]

demersel wrote...

On the matter of existence of Extended Cut. 
     *Snip*

Owwwww. WTF. Jk.

Very well done, and may I say that's pretty good.

So +1

Modifié par masster blaster, 22 août 2012 - 02:01 .

[masster blaster]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Had entire post full of anger, and like feelings that I was going to post but decided not to. So I will just skip it and post this instead....

http://t1.gstatic.co...AhPWBwotTYNS0C3


It's nothing that people have posted on the last couple pages....regarding which looking at the last 24 hours speculations have been going well...and the analysis of the EC and original endings difference is quite brilliant. 

Nice Cat.

[demersel]

masster blaster wrote...

I promised to Banshee to make this post. 

[masster blaster]

demersel wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I promised to Banshee to make this post. 

You made Banshee proud for sure.

[Lokanaiya]

demersel wrote...

On the matter of existence of Extended Cut. 
I state that the fact it exists proves the IT. 

*Mega-snip*

Demersel, I'm already going back to school next week! I don't need more math!!

Seriously, those were very logical and great points. Good job. :happy:

[TJBartlemus]

 New poll regarding the WNT. Posting for those interested. PS. Let's speed up this thread guys!!!! 

http://social.biowar...87/polls/38661/

[Jadebaby]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

cydoniawarrior wrote...

JasonSic wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Does anyone see a possibility for IT to play out through refuse?

I do.

By the time EC was released, Bioware was fully aware that a lot of fans, maybe a majority, love the idea of IT and want it in ME3. Just look at this poll.

Back in 2011, before ME3 came out, Casey Hudson said something about after releasing a game, Bioware really, REALLY pays attention to fan feedback. Bioware then creates something similar to what fans want, but not exactly as fans want because it would ruin surprise.

All the dedication us Theorists have put into IT plus that poll Chris Priestly made, among other things, leads me to think that Bioware will make some sort of Indoctrination related ending to ME3.

Since Bioware wouldn't want to create exactly what IT says, they might make refuse the only option to break free of indoctrination, rather than destroy. Refuse was added in EC, long after Bioware knew about IT. This also ties into your theory, the Puzzle Theory, because even after choosing refuse and breaking indoctrination, there is no way to defeat the Reapers conventionally... yet. Leviathan and other future DLC may or may not change that, only time will tell.

I think the EC is testament to the fact that BioWare cares, I understand people were saying it was damage control and they are probably right for some part, but I know of no other company that has done something like with a game when people didn't like a certain part, with the exception of Bethesda

I think the purpose was to make the ending seem less rediculous from a literal perspective. They filled in the gaps with scenes like the evac during the beam run. I personally liked the EC because it added so much more evidence to support the theory.

SOrry it a bit delayed, but yea...

I think the main evidence for this is the Catalyst only revealing his true nature once you refuse to co-operate with him.

Furthermore, for an IT thread, let's take a look at how Indoctrination works.

No, i'm not going to copy/paste the codex entry as im sure you've all heard it a thousand times.

What I will state is that Indoctrination is a completely manipulative process. It doesn't just "force" you to bend to their will. It "influences" you to do it by playing on your beliefs and/or doubts.

Amanda Kenson was indoctrinated through guilt.
TIM was indoctrinated through a lust for power and protection.
Saren was indoctrinated through his lust for peace and harmony.

Because of how Indoctrination works, it leads me to beleive that making any of the three original choices leads to Indoctrination.

Synthesis - same as Saren, lust for peace and harmony.
Control - same as TIM, lust for power and protection.
Destroy - Lust for justice.

The destroy one is a type of manipulation I don't think we've seen before in ME.

It could be said that the three most important characters through Mass 1 to Mass 3 were Shepard, Saren and TIM.

So maybe Destroy is just Shepard's appeal to indoctrination. as TIM and Saren are to control and synthesis, respectively. In that BioWare knew that a lot of us would choose destroy because that's what Shepard's resolve had been purposed for.

Any thoughts on this?

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 22 août 2012 - 02:43 .

[demersel]

What's a WNT?

[demersel]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

cydoniawarrior wrote...

JasonSic wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Does anyone see a possibility for IT to play out through refuse?

I do.

By the time EC was released, Bioware was fully aware that a lot of fans, maybe a majority, love the idea of IT and want it in ME3. Just look at this poll.

Back in 2011, before ME3 came out, Casey Hudson said something about after releasing a game, Bioware really, REALLY pays attention to fan feedback. Bioware then creates something similar to what fans want, but not exactly as fans want because it would ruin surprise.

All the dedication us Theorists have put into IT plus that poll Chris Priestly made, among other things, leads me to think that Bioware will make some sort of Indoctrination related ending to ME3.

Since Bioware wouldn't want to create exactly what IT says, they might make refuse the only option to break free of indoctrination, rather than destroy. Refuse was added in EC, long after Bioware knew about IT. This also ties into your theory, the Puzzle Theory, because even after choosing refuse and breaking indoctrination, there is no way to defeat the Reapers conventionally... yet. Leviathan and other future DLC may or may not change that, only time will tell.

I think the EC is testament to the fact that BioWare cares, I understand people were saying it was damage control and they are probably right for some part, but I know of no other company that has done something like with a game when people didn't like a certain part, with the exception of Bethesda

I think the purpose was to make the ending seem less rediculous from a literal perspective. They filled in the gaps with scenes like the evac during the beam run. I personally liked the EC because it added so much more evidence to support the theory.

SOrry it a bit delayed, but yea...

I think the main evidence for this is the Catalyst only revealing his true nature once you refuse to co-operate with him.

Furthermore, for an IT thread, let's take a look at how Indoctrination works.

No, i'm not going to copy/paste the codex entry as im sure you've all heard it a thousand times.

What I will state is that Indoctrination is a completely manipulative process. It doesn't just "force" you to bend to their will. It "influences" you to do it by playing on your beliefs and/or doubts.

Amanda Kenson was indoctrinated through guilt.
TIM was indoctrinated through a lust for power and protection.
Saren was indoctrinated through his lust for peace and harmony.

Because of how Indoctrination works, it leads me to beleive that making any of the three original choices leads to Indoctrination.

Synthesis - same as Saren, lust for peace and harmony.
Control - same as TIM, lust for power and protection.
Destroy - Lust for justice.

The destroy one is a type of manipulation I don't think we've seen before in ME.

It could be said that the three most important characters through Mass 1 to Mass 3 were Shepard, Saren and TIM.

So maybe Destroy is just Shepard's appeal to indoctrination. as TIM and Saren are to control and synthesis, respectively. In that BioWare knew that a lot of us would choose destroy because that's what Shepard's resolve had been purposed for.

Any thoughts on this?

It is possible.
But again, why not Refuse as the option specially made for Shepard? Shepard's incomromisable nature, and stubborness is much more defining that his lust for jastice, (he can be a renegade, and doesn't care about justice), or his goal to destroy the reapers. 

[JasonSic]

WNT

Waking Nightmare Theory

[TJBartlemus]

demersel wrote...

What's a WNT?

The WNT is a theory. Specifically it is named the Waking Nightmare Theory. 

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 22 août 2012 - 02:54 .

[Jadebaby]

demersel wrote...

It is possible.
But again, why not Refuse as the option specially made for Shepard? Shepard's incomromisable nature, and stubborness is much more defining that his lust for jastice, (he can be a renegade, and doesn't care about justice), or his goal to destroy the reapers. 

Because none of the chocies are about paragon/renegade.

But I do think that the whole theme of destroying the Reapers outweighs any other personality trait Shepard carries.

If the Reapers are Gods of manipulation via Indoctrination. Then presenting someone who is out to destroy them with the option to destroy them, seems like the perfect way to indoctrinate them, don't you think?

[ebuchala]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

SOrry it a bit delayed, but yea...

I think the main evidence for this is the Catalyst only revealing his true nature once you refuse to co-operate with him.

Furthermore, for an IT thread, let's take a look at how Indoctrination works.

No, i'm not going to copy/paste the codex entry as im sure you've all heard it a thousand times.

What I will state is that Indoctrination is a completely manipulative process. It doesn't just "force" you to bend to their will. It "influences" you to do it by playing on your beliefs and/or doubts.

Amanda Kenson was indoctrinated through guilt.
TIM was indoctrinated through a lust for power and protection.
Saren was indoctrinated through his lust for peace and harmony.

Because of how Indoctrination works, it leads me to beleive that making any of the three original choices leads to Indoctrination.

Synthesis - same as Saren, lust for peace and harmony.
Control - same as TIM, lust for power and protection.
Destroy - Lust for justice.

The destroy one is a type of manipulation I don't think we've seen before in ME.

It could be said that the three most important characters through Mass 1 to Mass 3 were Shepard, Saren and TIM.

So maybe Destroy is just Shepard's appeal to indoctrination. as TIM and Saren are to control and synthesis, respectively. In that BioWare knew that a lot of us would choose destroy because that's what Shepard's resolve had been purposed for.

Any thoughts on this?

Heheh. You might've missed the rather wordy debate demersel and I had a few pages back (in the 501 to 504 range) over the Refuse option versus the Destroy option. This is a great perspective on that debate. I was arguing that I'm starting to think better of the refuse option simply because it's the only option not sanctioned by the starbrat and I have no reason to believe anything the starbrat says, even if some of what it says is true. It manipulates and probably leaves out pertinent information and it's a reaper. Demersel is convinced that destroy is the only right option at this point mainly because of the breath scene if you have high enough EMS but also because it's the only option that he believes will destroy the reapers.

I was focusing on the fact that the starbrat is completely untrustworthy and, if I'd been able to play my Shepard in character, he would've told the starbrat to take a long walk out of a short airlock and then he would've FOUND the off switch/plug/control panel for the catalyst and destroyed it to get rid of the brat. After which he would've figured out a different way to destroy the reapers.

I like your perspective a lot and I definitely think BW would've considered the fact that many, if not most, of the players would correlate the 3 options with the Saren, TIM and Shepard and chosen Destroy just based on that. Really, the more I discuss the 4 options, the more I'm inclined to choose Refuse over Destroy.

[EpyonX3]

TJBartlemus wrote...

demersel wrote...

What's a WNT?

The WNT is a theory. Specifically it is named the Waking Nightmare Theory. 

So we now have another variation of IT or is it one of those Paxxton/Epyon theories?

[Jadebaby]

EpyonX3 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

demersel wrote...

What's a WNT?

The WNT is a theory. Specifically it is named the Waking Nightmare Theory. 

So we now have another variation of IT or is it one of those Paxxton/Epyon theories?

WNT has been around for a while. The only reason I'm skeptical on it now is because the breathe scene happens on the Citadel. It's been confirmed it's not rebar but reaper cable.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Jade... wth are you doing here?

[Jadebaby]

ebuchala wrote...

Heheh. You might've missed the rather wordy debate demersel and I had a few pages back (in the 501 to 504 range) over the Refuse option versus the Destroy option. This is a great perspective on that debate. I was arguing that I'm starting to think better of the refuse option simply because it's the only option not sanctioned by the starbrat and I have no reason to believe anything the starbrat says, even if some of what it says is true. It manipulates and probably leaves out pertinent information and it's a reaper. Demersel is convinced that destroy is the only right option at this point mainly because of the breath scene if you have high enough EMS but also because it's the only option that he believes will destroy the reapers.

I was focusing on the fact that the starbrat is completely untrustworthy and, if I'd been able to play my Shepard in character, he would've told the starbrat to take a long walk out of a short airlock and then he would've FOUND the off switch/plug/control panel for the catalyst and destroyed it to get rid of the brat. After which he would've figured out a different way to destroy the reapers.

I like your perspective a lot and I definitely think BW would've considered the fact that many, if not most, of the players would correlate the 3 options with the Saren, TIM and Shepard and chosen Destroy just based on that. Really, the more I discuss the 4 options, the more I'm inclined to choose Refuse over Destroy.

Yea I did miss the debate sorry.

But I think refuse as it stands now is probably the worst option. Just because everyone dies. But that's only because we don't have all the dlc yet Well, I'm hoping that's why. Because in the regard that you're rejecting the Catalyst's ultimatums... It is the best ending.

[Jadebaby]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Jade... wth are you doing here?

I had a theory that PT and IT could coincide somehow so wanted to get the IT experts opinion on it.

I don't think it's been as successful as I'd hoped... Much like the refuse option in-game currently.

[spotlessvoid]

Whats the Rejectors?

[demersel]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

demersel wrote...

It is possible.
But again, why not Refuse as the option specially made for Shepard? Shepard's incomromisable nature, and stubborness is much more defining that his lust for jastice, (he can be a renegade, and doesn't care about justice), or his goal to destroy the reapers. 

Because none of the chocies are about paragon/renegade.

But I do think that the whole theme of destroying the Reapers outweighs any other personality trait Shepard carries.

If the Reapers are Gods of manipulation via Indoctrination. Then presenting someone who is out to destroy them with the option to destroy them, seems like the perfect way to indoctrinate them, don't you think?

You like this concept. I get it. You also like the EC. (since it makes this concept possible). 
I don't like the EC. I think that it is god awfully stupion in everypossible way. I can't really bear to watch normandy pickup scene. double facepalm. If i had three hands - tripple facepalm. I don't like that in the EC you actually can talk with the catalyst, like demand some explanation from him. Talking to this thing is madness. Making speaches to it - double madness. 

I may sound like stubborn indoctrinated person, but i don't like refuse. I don't view it as an ultimate uncompromised option. To me it looks, it looks lead in, playng on the desire of the player, as shepard at making a stand on principal, and making noble jestures. Yeah! look at me! I'm refusing to comply to you and even make a choice! 

Why I think it is not the  wake up option.
1st - it wasn't in the original game. As I proved with logic in my huge post about the EC - everything that's in it is optional, and thus have zero relevance. More over. If it wasn't in the original game, and it is somehow the really true option (which, again, is posssible) - that means that the original game was shipped with NO WIN OPTION. It means, that whetever you do, whatever you belive, for the first six months after launch there is NO PASSIBLE TO WIN THE GAME. (And there still isn't and god knows how much it would take for it to appear). 
No this is exactly the argument most people had against the IT in the firts month - "So if according to IT if chose anything but destroy - i lost, just by chosing it, bioware woulln't dare to do that."  But really this goes eve beyond the  this - people spend hundreds of hours on this game. And by implying that refuse is trule the one right choice, you imply that EVERYONE WAS FORCED TO CHOOSE WRONG cause for the first few months the wasn't even an option availible to choose right!  If implementing the IT - Bioware already made unprecedented risk with storytelling. But if IT is true AND the true option is refuse - it's not even storytelling - it's just fraud. 

Also no breath scene after refuse, and breath scene really started the whole IT train. 

So, as of now, if we assume that Indoctrination is true, the correct break free ending is Destroy, because only destroy has the breath scene at current moment. 

As i wrote much much earlier in this thread

Before EC Destroy was the option for two kinds of people - those who wanted to destroy, and those who didn't like  other options. 
Now, after the EC only people who want to chose destroy chose it. 
Those who didn't like the options now have refuse - they make a speach and feel good about themselves. The a comfortable with this decision because they firced their own terms on the catalyst. And proud of it.
If i use your logic - proudness sounds as trait repears could exploit in a character. 

Destroy was your mission from the start. By chosing it no matter what you keep your focus on your mission and your mind clear.   At one point when you've just recruited Javik he asks you "Do you want to destroy the reapers at any cost?" And even if you answer yes he says "I do not belive you, commander. I don't feel the resolve in you."   In my game it happened i think because "yes" in this conversation is a renegade option, and my Shepard was more paragon. 
There is no way to be sure that options do what he says they do. They can all be a trap. So the tube may not actually destroy the reapers. But that applies only to the literal interpretation. 

If it is all a dream - all options are a lie, the crucible isn't real, it doesn't do anything. It is a test of will and resolve.  If you still chose destroy no matter what the catalyst says - you break free. You deviate - by choosing control and synthesis - you become indoctrinated, and lose your identity and die. (remember - according to IT you are wounded heavily, it may not be about indoctrination, but about will to live and fight - it's like reaper induced coma, while you're bleading - if you don't wake up - you die of bloodloss, or just your brain dies. Final taunt by the reapers. They not just shoot you dead, but they crush your spirit and your mind, the destroy your hope and your belief in your friends. That is what the original ending achieved for real - people stopped caring about mass effect, they turned away from it and just left. the ending is not about taking control of shepard. But about destroying everithing shepard is and stands for just as a final taunt before he dies. You can't climb out of coma by denial - this is exactly what happems in refusal - shepard just stays there in the decision chamber)

[demersel]

ebuchala wrote...

That's not why i thing destroy is right option. That was just the evidence that i can provide to support my belief. 
Read my previous post. 

[Codename_Code]

I think the destroy option represents shepard's incredible determination, she sees it right there and the catalyst cant cover it, the kid instead keeps it calm and try to talk shepard out of it, use it to his advantage.

In refuse, Shepard talks about dying but dying free, but in this way of thinking she gives up even rejecting the indoc, her brain can take it anymore or cant escape the illusion, cant wake up, the reapers cant use her, she is free and dead.

[desert_beagle]

After playing through and choosing Refuse through the dialogue choices I can see how even Destroy is a manipulative option. It could absolutely be the way the Reapers chose to indoctrinate Shepard.

I honestly cannot accept that Shepard wakes up on the Citadel after the Destroy ending. BioWare is gonna have to do some heavy scientific explaining other than "reaper cable" to justify Shepard surviving a practically thermonuclear explosion right in his face. Some have claimed that the center of the Citadel doesn't explode in the EC, but I just watched it again. After it shoots the red beam to the Charon relay the whole center of the Citidel is engulfed in flames and it all blasts outward.

Then again, Shepard somehow managed to find time to change his armor from the custom armor I had him in to his default N7 stuff just before he got hit by Harbinger's beam of death too so...