80611 réponses à ce sujet

[demersel]

Codename_Code wrote...

I think the destroy option represents shepard's incredible determination, she sees it right there and the catalyst cant cover it, the kid instead keeps it calm and try to talk shepard out of it, use it to his advantage.

In refuse, Shepard talks about dying but dying free, but in this way of thinking she gives up even rejecting the indoc, her brain can take it anymore or cant escape the illusion, cant wake up, the reapers cant use her, she is free and dead.

this! Thank you. I'm to fixed on the factual evidence right now. And can't really provide some analysis.

what mean is - 
the catalyst isn't real. 
the decision chamber isn't real. 
it does nothing  to reapers and to the galaxy. 
it is all happenning inside shepards head and is really all about shepard himself. 
During all mass effect game shepard really got preoccupied by saving others at any cost. Even if it means his death. He's ready to everything, even sacrifice himsels if duty calls. It really never even occured to him to take care of himself - but the final of the game is the time when everything is just about shepard. This is just about him , his life, his mind, his identity. in the end he really needs to save himself - and it doesn't really occure to shepard to thing about what is happenning this way. 

the chamber isn't real. it does nothing to the reapers, the world or galaxy. But it is real for Shepard! It is about his life! So the options are methaphors.

futher pure speculation:
More over since it is a reaper induced coma - maybe it is even real for harbinger and the battle between them IS real. And it's outcome may have some effect on harbinger when shepard breaks free destroys reaprs in his mind and wakes up - remember - in mass effect one shepard DID kill a reaper. WITH HIS HANDGUN. whe he destroyd the husk of Saren that was posssessed by sovereign - sovereign just died. It wasn't the fleet or the normandy that killed him. It was Shepard by his own hand. 

[spotlessvoid]

 DB,  

[ebuchala]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Yea I did miss the debate sorry.

But I think refuse as it stands now is probably the worst option. Just because everyone dies. But that's only because we don't have all the dlc yet Well, I'm hoping that's why. Because in the regard that you're rejecting the Catalyst's ultimatums... It is the best ending.

I don't totally agree that it's the worst option--I really dislike both control and synthesis more. I think refuse is the saddest option at the moment because your cycle loses and, the way refuse is currently written, there seems to be an element of Shepard giving up because s/he just stands there and watches everyone die after making that pretty awesome speech. Again, not how I picture my Shepard behaving--he would've tried to get help from any or all of his squaddies over the radio (call Liara, Edi or Traynor for input on where to look for a kill switch, for instance), he would've scoured that whole area or tried to figure out how to get off the top of the citadel and back to the control room below, or any of a number of things but he probably wouldn't have just stood there and stared into space while the reapers killed everyone.

I'm hoping that dlc adds something to the refuse option for sure but I would also be on board for something that expands on the destroy/breath scene somehow, even indirectly.

[byne]

Codename_Code wrote...

I think the destroy option represents shepard's incredible determination, she sees it right there and the catalyst cant cover it, the kid instead keeps it calm and try to talk shepard out of it, use it to his advantage.

In refuse, Shepard talks about dying but dying free, but in this way of thinking she gives up even rejecting the indoc, her brain can take it anymore or cant escape the illusion, cant wake up, the reapers cant use her, she is free and dead.

For me, I see refuse as essentially just doing what TIM and Saren did.

Sure, their goals lined up with control and synthesis respectively, but in the end, they both chose to refuse to obey the Reapers and die free.

By picking refuse, unless further DLC better fleshes it out and makes survival possible through refuse, Shepard is essentially just killing herself as a way of beating indoctrination. Thats why I dont like it as much as destroy, where you break free and live to take the fight to the Reapers.

[spotlessvoid]

Byne..Yes!

[demersel]

desert_beagle wrote...

After playing through and choosing Refuse through the dialogue choices I can see how even Destroy is a manipulative option. It could absolutely be the way the Reapers chose to indoctrinate Shepard.

I honestly cannot accept that Shepard wakes up on the Citadel after the Destroy ending. BioWare is gonna have to do some heavy scientific explaining other than "reaper cable" to justify Shepard surviving a practically thermonuclear explosion right in his face. Some have claimed that the center of the Citadel doesn't explode in the EC, but I just watched it again. After it shoots the red beam to the Charon relay the whole center of the Citidel is engulfed in flames and it all blasts outward.

Then again, Shepard somehow managed to find time to change his armor from the custom armor I had him in to his default N7 stuff just before he got hit by Harbinger's beam of death too so...

He can be in london, you know. And everything might be just a before-before death-dream. ))

[demersel]

byne wrote...

Codename_Code wrote...

I think the destroy option represents shepard's incredible determination, she sees it right there and the catalyst cant cover it, the kid instead keeps it calm and try to talk shepard out of it, use it to his advantage.

In refuse, Shepard talks about dying but dying free, but in this way of thinking she gives up even rejecting the indoc, her brain can take it anymore or cant escape the illusion, cant wake up, the reapers cant use her, she is free and dead.

For me, I see refuse as essentially just doing what TIM and Saren did.

Sure, their goals lined up with control and synthesis respectively, but in the end, they both chose to refuse to obey the Reapers and die free.

By picking refuse, unless further DLC better fleshes it out and makes survival possible through refuse, Shepard is essentially just killing herself as a way of beating indoctrination. Thats why I dont like it as much as destroy, where you break free and live to take the fight to the Reapers.

This! Refuse - is making a speach and blowing your brains out. 
+1

[JasonSic]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

WNT has been around for a while. The only reason I'm skeptical on it now is because the breathe scene happens on the Citadel. It's been confirmed it's not rebar but reaper cable.

I gotta see the source on this.

[spotlessvoid]

Jasinsic....yeah, PROOF!

Where's gunslinger_ruiz when you need him!

[desert_beagle]

demersel wrote...

Codename_Code wrote...

I think the destroy option represents shepard's incredible determination, she sees it right there and the catalyst cant cover it, the kid instead keeps it calm and try to talk shepard out of it, use it to his advantage.

In refuse, Shepard talks about dying but dying free, but in this way of thinking she gives up even rejecting the indoc, her brain can take it anymore or cant escape the illusion, cant wake up, the reapers cant use her, she is free and dead.

this! Thank you. I'm to fixed on the factual evidence right now. And can't really provide some analysis.

what mean is - 
the catalyst isn't real. 
the decision chamber isn't real. 
it does nothing  to reapers and to the galaxy. 
it is all happenning inside shepards head and is really all about shepard himself. 
During all mass effect game shepard really got preoccupied by saving others at any cost. Even if it means his death. He's ready to everything, even sacrifice himsels if duty calls. It really never even occured to him to take care of himself - but the final of the game is the time when everything is just about shepard. This is just about him , his life, his mind, his identity. in the end he really needs to save himself - and it doesn't really occure to shepard to thing about what is happenning this way. 

the chamber isn't real. it does nothing to the reapers, the world or galaxy. But it is real for Shepard! It is about his life! So the options are methaphors.

futher pure speculation:
More over since it is a reaper induced coma - maybe it is even real for harbinger and the battle between them IS real. And it's outcome may have some effect on harbinger when shepard breaks free destroys reaprs in his mind and wakes up - remember - in mass effect one shepard DID kill a reaper. WITH HIS HANDGUN. whe he destroyd the husk of Saren that was posssessed by sovereign - sovereign just died. It wasn't the fleet or the normandy that killed him. It was Shepard by his own hand. 

"What is real?  How do you define real?  If real is what you can touch or smell or see then real is simply electrical impulses interpreted by your brain."
                                                              -Morpheus in The Matrix

"If we kill him, he will just wake up.  But pain?  Pain is in the mind, and judging by the decor I would say we are in your mind Arthur."
                              -Mal's projection in Inception

Soveriegn as in independent entity put its mind into controlling the Saren husk directly.  The codex mentions that when it was destroyed by Shepard, the result was an overload to Sovereign's core which brought down its kinetic barriers and weapons.  Sovereign tried to flee, but no longer able to defend itself, the Alliance and more specifically the Normandy's warp torpedo finished off what was left of the shell.

I do think that Sovereign's mind was effectively destroyed by Shepard when we killed Saren in ME1.  So your theory here about being connected to Harbinger the same way is a great piece of speculation.
 

[byne]

JasonSic wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

WNT has been around for a while. The only reason I'm skeptical on it now is because the breathe scene happens on the Citadel. It's been confirmed it's not rebar but reaper cable.

I gotta see the source on this.

Even if that were true, how does that prove it takes place on the Citadel?

Was there no Reaper tech anywhere in London?

[ebuchala]

byne wrote...

For me, I see refuse as essentially just doing what TIM and Saren did.

Sure, their goals lined up with control and synthesis respectively, but in the end, they both chose to refuse to obey the Reapers and die free.

By picking refuse, unless further DLC better fleshes it out and makes survival possible through refuse, Shepard is essentially just killing herself as a way of beating indoctrination. Thats why I dont like it as much as destroy, where you break free and live to take the fight to the Reapers.

Ooh, now this is a good perspective on this. However, the downside is that if Saren and TIM hadn't "refused" to obey the reapers and committed suicide, they would've remained indoctrinated. So how does that relate to Shepard's decision between the two options? Wouldn't that correlate to Shepard not refusing to be indoctrinated and, therefore, becoming indoctrinated when he chooses destroy?

And why couldn't this apply to the refuse ending, as well, without Shep dying? Meaning, if this is all in his head, then perhaps choosing refuse would be similar to Saren and TIM committing suicide but since it's not happening in real life, Shepard's refusal/"dying free" in his head is what wakes him up. Am I being coherent at all?

[byne]

ebuchala wrote...

byne wrote...

For me, I see refuse as essentially just doing what TIM and Saren did.

Sure, their goals lined up with control and synthesis respectively, but in the end, they both chose to refuse to obey the Reapers and die free.

By picking refuse, unless further DLC better fleshes it out and makes survival possible through refuse, Shepard is essentially just killing herself as a way of beating indoctrination. Thats why I dont like it as much as destroy, where you break free and live to take the fight to the Reapers.

Ooh, now this is a good perspective on this. However, the downside is that if Saren and TIM hadn't "refused" to obey the reapers and committed suicide, they would've remained indoctrinated. So how does that relate to Shepard's decision between the two options? Wouldn't that correlate to Shepard not refusing to be indoctrinated and, therefore, becoming indoctrinated when he chooses destroy?

And why couldn't this apply to the refuse ending, as well, without Shep dying? Meaning, if this is all in his head, then perhaps choosing refuse would be similar to Saren and TIM committing suicide but since it's not happening in real life, Shepard's refusal/"dying free" in his head is what wakes him up. Am I being coherent at all?

For the first part, you could say that by refusing to be distracted and keeping her resolve, Shep breaks free of Reaper influence in destroy.

For the second part, that'd be all well and good if Shep got the breath scene in refuse, but she doesnt. Like I said, I might be more open to refuse if future DLC expands on it or adds a breath scene or something to it.

[demersel]

ebuchala wrote...

byne wrote...

For me, I see refuse as essentially just doing what TIM and Saren did.

Sure, their goals lined up with control and synthesis respectively, but in the end, they both chose to refuse to obey the Reapers and die free.

By picking refuse, unless further DLC better fleshes it out and makes survival possible through refuse, Shepard is essentially just killing herself as a way of beating indoctrination. Thats why I dont like it as much as destroy, where you break free and live to take the fight to the Reapers.

Ooh, now this is a good perspective on this. However, the downside is that if Saren and TIM hadn't "refused" to obey the reapers and committed suicide, they would've remained indoctrinated. So how does that relate to Shepard's decision between the two options? Wouldn't that correlate to Shepard not refusing to be indoctrinated and, therefore, becoming indoctrinated when he chooses destroy?

And why couldn't this apply to the refuse ending, as well, without Shep dying? Meaning, if this is all in his head, then perhaps choosing refuse would be similar to Saren and TIM committing suicide but since it's not happening in real life, Shepard's refusal/"dying free" in his head is what wakes him up. Am I being coherent at all?

You just really like the idea of refuse. )))

[spotlessvoid]

Ebuchala...great point. Perhaps destroy is how you beat indoctrination, instead of just refusing to be a puppet any longer

[ebuchala]

desert_beagle wrote...

Soveriegn as in independent entity put its mind into controlling the Saren husk directly.  The codex mentions that when it was destroyed by Shepard, the result was an overload to Sovereign's core which brought down its kinetic barriers and weapons.  Sovereign tried to flee, but no longer able to defend itself, the Alliance and more specifically the Normandy's warp torpedo finished off what was left of the shell.

I do think that Sovereign's mind was effectively destroyed by Shepard when we killed Saren in ME1.  So your theory here about being connected to Harbinger the same way is a great piece of speculation.
 

Whoa! That's a trippy thought. So maybe Shepard "committing suicide" is what would bring Harbinger down. Maybe Shepard's death is necessary for Harby to die.

Ok, here's a horrible thought--
Shepard's breath scene after the Destroy option is chosen is actually Harbinger waking him up as a husk and the final dlc is fighting Husk-Shepard to finish off the reapers. So BW would've been completely truthful in saying that this is the end of Shepard's story. 

[desert_beagle]

Now this piece of speculation ignores the fact that we kill Collectors who are under the direct control of Harbinger in ME2, and that doesn't seem to phase him.

The only thing I have to support that is that he takes control of them through another proxy which is the Collector General, whom Harbinger leaves just before the Collector General is destroyed on the Collector base. Why would he, if he wasn't vulnerable through the General, leave before it was destroyed?

Sovereign on the other hand had no other choice at that point but to fight Shepard one on one on the Citadel.

[ebuchala]

demersel wrote...

You just really like the idea of refuse. )))

Honestly, I'm not really sure what I like other than more dlc that adds to IT. I do know that I DON"T like control or synthesis but the other two are a bit of a toss-up for me at the moment. I think Banshee was accurate, however, that a breath scene after refusal would be too obvious so I don't think it's something they would ever do, but I am hoping they add more to that ending to give us insight into the immediate consequences of it.

Also, I've been enjoying the debate so I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate here since most IT'ers are firmly in the destroy camp.

[byne]

ebuchala wrote...

desert_beagle wrote...

Soveriegn as in independent entity put its mind into controlling the Saren husk directly.  The codex mentions that when it was destroyed by Shepard, the result was an overload to Sovereign's core which brought down its kinetic barriers and weapons.  Sovereign tried to flee, but no longer able to defend itself, the Alliance and more specifically the Normandy's warp torpedo finished off what was left of the shell.

I do think that Sovereign's mind was effectively destroyed by Shepard when we killed Saren in ME1.  So your theory here about being connected to Harbinger the same way is a great piece of speculation.
 

Whoa! That's a trippy thought. So maybe Shepard "committing suicide" is what would bring Harbinger down. Maybe Shepard's death is necessary for Harby to die.

Ok, here's a horrible thought--
Shepard's breath scene after the Destroy option is chosen is actually Harbinger waking him up as a husk and the final dlc is fighting Husk-Shepard to finish off the reapers. So BW would've been completely truthful in saying that this is the end of Shepard's story. 

My Shepard promised Liara lots of little blue children.

Her story isnt over until that happens.

When she makes a promise, she keeps it.

Plus, like half the galaxy has promised her drinks at this point. No way she's missing out on all that booze.

[demersel]

ebuchala wrote...

Whoa! That's a trippy thought. So maybe Shepard "committing suicide" is what would bring Harbinger down. Maybe Shepard's death is necessary for Harby to die.

Ok, here's a horrible thought--
Shepard's breath scene after the Destroy option is chosen is actually Harbinger waking him up as a husk and the final dlc is fighting Husk-Shepard to finish off the reapers. So BW would've been completely truthful in saying that this is the end of Shepard's story. 

Are you a troll?  You start to look like one.

[ebuchala]

desert_beagle wrote...

Now this piece of speculation ignores the fact that we kill Collectors who are under the direct control of Harbinger in ME2, and that doesn't seem to phase him.

The only thing I have to support that is that he takes control of them through another proxy which is the Collector General, whom Harbinger leaves just before the Collector General is destroyed on the Collector base. Why would he, if he wasn't vulnerable through the General, leave before it was destroyed?

Sovereign on the other hand had no other choice at that point but to fight Shepard one on one on the Citadel.

You know I just replayed the suicide mission recently and was thinking the same thing when Harby releases the Collector General. Well, I started out wondering how horrified the CG must have been when he was suddenly released only to find himself at death's door and no escape. Then wondered why Harby would have to do that if it didn't cause him any harm and came to the same conclusion--that remaining in control of the CG when it explodes in a fiery ball of fiery stuff must cause Harby damage somehow.

However, as you mentioned, it never seems to phase him when you kill one of the controlled collectors so maybe having the CG as a buffer makes it possible for Harby to avoid damage when he's controlling one of the lesser collectors.

[Jadebaby]

JasonSic wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

WNT has been around for a while. The only reason I'm skeptical on it now is because the breathe scene happens on the Citadel. It's been confirmed it's not rebar but reaper cable.

I gotta see the source on this.

Compare it to the Rebar in London MP map and Priority Earth, then compare it to this...

http://www.youtube.c...FkTEAM-8#t=301s

I don't like it either, but it is what it is.

[Billyg3453]

Can someone explain this new distinction between "IT-Dream" and "IT-Con". I must have missed the split when it happened.

[byne]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

JasonSic wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

WNT has been around for a while. The only reason I'm skeptical on it now is because the breathe scene happens on the Citadel. It's been confirmed it's not rebar but reaper cable.

I gotta see the source on this.

Compare it to the Rebar in London MP map and Priority Earth, then compare it to this...

http://www.youtube.c...FkTEAM-8#t=301s

I don't like it either, but it is what it is.

It also looks like the cables you see all over the game. Why that somehow proves you're on the Citadel I dont get. It could just as easily prove you're on board the geth dreadnought, since those cables are all over the place there.

[desert_beagle]

Except the rest of the stuff is quite visibly CONCRETE. Not metal or plastic like the parts of the Citadel and Crucible are supposedly made out of. Remember, where Shepard passes out/gets hit with the beam is surrounded by Reaper tech, and they were in control of that area around the transport beam for a while, so it makes sense that there would be some form of "Reaper cable" lying around the area.