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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#13601
StElmo

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The Twilight God wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Blind faith? Is there any other kind? Posted Image I think that's pretty much what faith is; hope without reason to hope. Maybe. Some stuff to think about.


If I ask you to help me mow my lawn each Saturday and each Saturday you do, then I have faith that you will the next weekend. People have faith in the weatherman, faith in the speedy police response, faith in medicine.

Blind faith is faith which isn't based upon anything. I believe in unicorns. I've never seen one. Nobody else has ever seen one to my knowledge, but I choose to believe it regardless.


Isn't faith belief without evidence? isn't blind faith belief against the evidence? Like walking off a cliff thinking you will float?

PS: ON TOP OF THE PAGE!

PPPS: to stay on topic... errr... because mass effect indoctrination.

Modifié par StElmo, 25 août 2012 - 06:49 .


#13602
BansheeOwnage

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Norlond wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Norlond wrote...
Nah, I mean a REAL hybrid, not some big reaper abomination, imagine Wrex and Garrus as one person, it would be the Chuck Norris Liam Neeson of ME :lol:


Fixed, because Chuck Norris isnt that great.


Okay, he's acceptable ;)

btw, I'm an atheist too

Liam Neeson hell yeah! Posted Image Seriously Liam Neeson is awesome! He led the A-team, trained Obi-wan Kenobi, and trained Batman. Beat that! [End/whatever-that-was here] Posted Image

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 25 août 2012 - 06:49 .


#13603
jojon2se

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BansheeOwnage wrote...
Can I get a link to that picture in full size?


I did some more googling and have updated the post with a sharper (although not much bigger) version - can't seem to access the original source mentioned on the picture itself.


EDIT: ...and yes, demersel: I'll admit that part is a touch hyperbolic and oversimplifying, but will maintain that it really pretty much is what it all comes down to, as far as religions of today and as promoted by their institutes, go.

Modifié par jojon2se, 25 août 2012 - 07:05 .


#13604
The Twilight God

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demersel wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

jojon2se wrote...

Posted Image


Actually I find this picture a bit rude. I'm not religious, but i spent my share of time studying history and phyloshophy of world religions. (that was included in my first major, I specialised on Islam, and did My thesis on a role and influence of Syriac Orthodox Church on the society of Islamic Caliphate of Abbasides in the 11-13th centuries)
That's really not what the religion and faith is. I think it's inconsiderate and offencive. 



Exactly what part do you disagree with?


the faith part. 


Yes, but what about it do you disagree with?

#13605
Norlond

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IT is like M-Theory, it has sh*tloads of subtheories

Modifié par Norlond, 25 août 2012 - 06:49 .


#13606
demersel

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TJBartlemus wrote...

 Sup guys!!! Once again congrats to Hellish and Turbo!!! Regarding to Julians video and thread I am not impressed. Also I came across this IT con / IT dream nonsense. That needs to be dealt with. Every time I see it I just have to facepalm.

http://social.biowar...ndex/13821253/2


What;s an IT-con? Is it like Comic-con, but only for IT-supporters? 

Seriously, what is it? And, please, don't give some link, just explain in one sentence. 

#13607
BansheeOwnage

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The Twilight God wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Blind faith? Is there any other kind? Posted Image I think that's pretty much what faith is; hope without reason to hope. Maybe. Some stuff to think about.


If I ask you to help me mow my lawn each Saturday and each Saturday you do, then I have faith that you will the next weekend. People have faith in the weatherman, faith in the speedy police response, faith in medicine.

Blind faith is faith which isn't based upon anything. I believe in unicorns. I've never seen one. Nobody else has ever seen one to my knowledge, but I choose to believe it regardless.

You seem to be confusing "faith" with "trust" and "confidence".

#13608
StElmo

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demersel wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Sup guys!!! Once again congrats to Hellish and Turbo!!! Regarding to Julians video and thread I am not impressed. Also I came across this IT con / IT dream nonsense. That needs to be dealt with. Every time I see it I just have to facepalm.

http://social.biowar...ndex/13821253/2


What;s an IT-con? Is it like Comic-con, but only for IT-supporters? 

Seriously, what is it? And, please, don't give some link, just explain in one sentence. 


IT -CON interprets the endings as having happened, but having been altered by indoctrination on shepard.

So he DOES go into the citadel he DOES talk to TIM he DOES meet the catalyst. But the wierder bits are due to indoctrination.

The problem is it leaves shep on the citadel to die, it also makes the RGB endings canon and other stuff. I think....

Makes more sense for IT to be a dream type thingo.

Modifié par StElmo, 25 août 2012 - 06:52 .


#13609
Norlond

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demersel wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Sup guys!!! Once again congrats to Hellish and Turbo!!! Regarding to Julians video and thread I am not impressed. Also I came across this IT con / IT dream nonsense. That needs to be dealt with. Every time I see it I just have to facepalm.

http://social.biowar...ndex/13821253/2


What;s an IT-con? Is it like Comic-con, but only for IT-supporters? 

Seriously, what is it? And, please, don't give some link, just explain in one sentence. 


If I'm not mistaken IT-con says that only the catalyst isn't real, but everything else is

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

*edit* :ph34r:ed by Elmo

Modifié par Norlond, 25 août 2012 - 06:52 .


#13610
BansheeOwnage

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jojon2se wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Can I get a link to that picture in full size?


I did some more googling and have updated the post with a sharper (although not much bigger) version - can't seem to access the original source mentioned on the picture itself.

Okay, thanks. Posted Image

#13611
BansheeOwnage

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Can we get back to dicussing somethin important now? Thanks.

Eryri wrote...

De-lurking for a moment. Just wanted to say, I really enjoyed your video Hellish! Thanks to you and TurboJ for making it. It's really great work! 

On another topic, somethng has been bugging me about one of the Catalyst's (many) bizarre lines.

Has anyone speculated on how the Catalyst can claim to be both the Reaper's creator, and simultaneously the embodyment of their "collective conciousness"? Wouldn't the second claim imply that the reapers continuously create him, as the gestalt sum of their minds - which contradicts the first claim?

Seems a bit "chicken and egg" to me. If he predates the reapers then obviously there wouldn't have been any reapers around to comprise his collective. Does each new reaper he creates get added to him? Wouldn't a new reaper coming online, made of a new species, change him, even just by giving him more raw processing power? Thereby making the name "Catalyst", with its connotations of immutability even more inappropriate?

Sorry if I'm not making much sense, I can't really put what I'm trying to say into words.


I understand exactly what you're saying, and totally agree. The "catalyst" brings up so many contradictions I find it extremely hardto believe it wasn't intentional. I mean, come on, he basically is the personification of a contradiction!

#13612
Hrothdane

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demersel wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Sup guys!!! Once again congrats to Hellish and Turbo!!! Regarding to Julians video and thread I am not impressed. Also I came across this IT con / IT dream nonsense. That needs to be dealt with. Every time I see it I just have to facepalm.

http://social.biowar...ndex/13821253/2


What;s an IT-con? Is it like Comic-con, but only for IT-supporters? 

Seriously, what is it? And, please, don't give some link, just explain in one sentence. 


Everything post Harbinger beam actually happens, but the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Choosing non-destroy means they succeeded because the Crucible's true function is destroy and the other options are made up to trick Shepard.

#13613
BansheeOwnage

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paxxton wrote...

That war is too big for a single game. It didn't receive enough treatment in ME3.

Your actually right now that I think about it. You spend the majority of the game fighting Cerberus, not the reapers.

ME1: Geth heretics = primary enemy, reapers secondary
ME2: Collectors = primary enemy, reapers secondary
ME3: Cerberus = primary enemy, reapers secondary

Oh and keep in mind what I've brought up before: They're all indoctrinated. Even a lot of the minor enemies like thorian creepers or random scientists are indoctrinated. Reaper troops are indoctrinated. The main enemy of the series is indoctrination. It makes perfect sense to fight it in the last battle of the game. Beating indoctrination is impossible? Well Shepard has built a career off performing the impossible, like most heroes.

Oh and here's another thing: A couple of people, like Hackett and Liara, say the reapers can't be beaten conventionally. SO WHAT? Some people also said the reapers didn't exist, certain things were "inevitable" and you can't go through the Omega-4 relay. The point of the hero is to beat the impossible odds; to do what everyone else thought you couldn't do. In this case, beat the reapers conventionally.

Thoughts?

#13614
The Twilight God

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TJBartlemus wrote...

 Sup guys!!! Once again congrats to Hellish and Turbo!!! Regarding to Julians video and thread I am not impressed. Also I came across this IT con / IT dream nonsense. That needs to be dealt with. Every time I see it I just have to facepalm.

http://social.biowar...ndex/13821253/2




StElmo wrote...

What is the point of IT Con, IT ties up the plot holes, having shepard awake means RGB still happens and thats really bad for the plot holes. Same with the catalyst existence etc.


I'd love for you both to point out any holes in my theory. The last part's "conclusion" section is a summar if it's too long to read.

http://social.biowar...ndex/13419372/1


Here is my problem with dreams or hallucinations.

Dream: So Shepard wakes up... then Harbinger finishes what he started and vaporizes Shepard.

Waking Dream (endings delusional): 

All of the pertinent events of each ending play out in the same general manner. For instance, regardless of the ending you choose Admiral Hackett gives an order to fall back to the rendezvous point and the same brief scene between Joker and a squad mate at the helm play out identically in all endings. Regardless of the ending you choose the energy wave erupts from the epicenter under the same battlefield conditions in orbit (i.e. Allied Fleet and Reaper vessels situated in the same exact positions). Regardless of the ending you choose the ground forces fighting on Earth are shown in the exact same neighborhood moving in the exact same fashion. The exact same advancing Cannibal is shot by the exact same resistance soldier. The exact same reaper destroyer lands and the exact same dreadnaughts are in the distance. The Normandy is forced to land or crash land on the same identical jungle world in which you state is a delusion in the context of Control and Synthesis. The crew is depicted exiting the Normandy in the same exact manner in Control and Destroy.

Would it not be sensible to conclude that either all endings are equally delusional or they all play out in reality?

However, certain aspects of the differences between endings are worth noting because they would indicate that it is not a hallucination. For instance, why would Shepard's subconscious in the Control ending involve the Citadel arms closing and the Control eruption reaching the Charon Mass Relay in the form of an energy wave as opposed to reaching it as a beam and causing severe explosions across the Citadel in the Synthesis and Destroy versions? There are no clues leading up to the Control decision to account for why Shepard would envision its outcome playing out in a different fashion than Synthesis or Destroy. Furthermore, if it is all a delusion why does the readiness of the allied fleets have any relevance whatsoever on what delusions Shepard perceives in the Crucible docking chamber? Why is there a high EMS necessity for Synthesis. Why does the choice to either preserve of destroy the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2 even matter in this regard with low EMS? 
  

Modifié par The Twilight God, 25 août 2012 - 07:24 .


#13615
Dwailing

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Ah, I just reinstalled Star Trek Voyager Elite Force and Star Wars Republic Commando and I'm taking a serious nostalgia trip.  Anyway, any new speculations, or are we just holding out until Leviathan gets here?

Modifié par Dwailing, 25 août 2012 - 07:00 .


#13616
BansheeOwnage

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Dwailing wrote...

Ah, I just reinstalled Star Trek Voyager Elite Force and Star Wars Republic Commando and I'm taking a serious nostalgia trip this week.  Anyway, any new speculations, or are we just holding out until Leviathan gets here?

Hey Dwailing! I'm not sure when the last time you were here was, so maybe. But mostly waiting for Leviathan. Did you see my thing about EDI? Or why Leviathan can't really disprove IT?

#13617
demersel

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Hrothdane wrote...

demersel wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Sup guys!!! Once again congrats to Hellish and Turbo!!! Regarding to Julians video and thread I am not impressed. Also I came across this IT con / IT dream nonsense. That needs to be dealt with. Every time I see it I just have to facepalm.

http://social.biowar...ndex/13821253/2


What;s an IT-con? Is it like Comic-con, but only for IT-supporters? 

Seriously, what is it? And, please, don't give some link, just explain in one sentence. 


Everything post Harbinger beam actually happens, but the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Choosing non-destroy means they succeeded because the Crucible's true function is destroy and the other options are made up to trick Shepard.


Well, that may be. Extremely unlikely, there are ton's of evidence against it, but it is possible.
I think it grew out of notion that the rebars in the breath scene were proven to be reaper cables, and thus everyone claims it takes place on citadel. That is simply wrong. It may be in fact reaper cables, but there are plently of those in London (the thing that emits the beam is clearly reaper built, and thus have reaper cables in it.  
I think that WNT is much more likely.
I mean that everything you see is a dream, BUT you're also performing some actions at the time, so while you shoot the tube in destroy in your dream in reality you could also shoot something that blows up, snapping you out of the illusion.)
 

#13618
Hrothdane

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Twilight God:

When I get back home after lunch, I'll post a response. I'm not going to try writing something that long on my phone.

#13619
Norlond

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Personally, I think WNT is more believable than IT-con

#13620
The Twilight God

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Blind faith? Is there any other kind? Posted Image I think that's pretty much what faith is; hope without reason to hope. Maybe. Some stuff to think about.


If I ask you to help me mow my lawn each Saturday and each Saturday you do, then I have faith that you will the next weekend. People have faith in the weatherman, faith in the speedy police response, faith in medicine.

Blind faith is faith which isn't based upon anything. I believe in unicorns. I've never seen one. Nobody else has ever seen one to my knowledge, but I choose to believe it regardless.

You seem to be confusing "faith" with "trust" and "confidence".


Trust is a synonym for faith.

The word "faith", although usually attached to religious discourse, is not restricted to a religious context. 

#13621
StElmo

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demersel wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

demersel wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Sup guys!!! Once again congrats to Hellish and Turbo!!! Regarding to Julians video and thread I am not impressed. Also I came across this IT con / IT dream nonsense. That needs to be dealt with. Every time I see it I just have to facepalm.

http://social.biowar...ndex/13821253/2


What;s an IT-con? Is it like Comic-con, but only for IT-supporters? 

Seriously, what is it? And, please, don't give some link, just explain in one sentence. 


Everything post Harbinger beam actually happens, but the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Choosing non-destroy means they succeeded because the Crucible's true function is destroy and the other options are made up to trick Shepard.


Well, that may be. Extremely unlikely, there are ton's of evidence against it, but it is possible.
I think it grew out of notion that the rebars in the breath scene were proven to be reaper cables, and thus everyone claims it takes place on citadel. That is simply wrong. It may be in fact reaper cables, but there are plently of those in London (the thing that emits the beam is clearly reaper built, and thus have reaper cables in it.  
I think that WNT is much more likely.
I mean that everything you see is a dream, BUT you're also performing some actions at the time, so while you shoot the tube in destroy in your dream in reality you could also shoot something that blows up, snapping you out of the illusion.)
 


Michael Gamble called it rebar.

#13622
Dwailing

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Ah, I just reinstalled Star Trek Voyager Elite Force and Star Wars Republic Commando and I'm taking a serious nostalgia trip this week.  Anyway, any new speculations, or are we just holding out until Leviathan gets here?

Hey Dwailing! I'm not sure when the last time you were here was, so maybe. But mostly waiting for Leviathan. Did you see my thing about EDI? Or why Leviathan can't really disprove IT?


I missed both, unfortunately.  Could you please give me a brief summary of each?

#13623
StElmo

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Norlond wrote...

Personally, I think WNT is more believable than IT-con


Can I guess the acronim? Waking Nightmare Theory?

Yeah I like that, thats cool.

#13624
The Twilight God

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Norlond wrote...

demersel wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Sup guys!!! Once again congrats to Hellish and Turbo!!! Regarding to Julians video and thread I am not impressed. Also I came across this IT con / IT dream nonsense. That needs to be dealt with. Every time I see it I just have to facepalm.

http://social.biowar...ndex/13821253/2


What;s an IT-con? Is it like Comic-con, but only for IT-supporters? 

Seriously, what is it? And, please, don't give some link, just explain in one sentence. 


If I'm not mistaken IT-con says that only the catalyst isn't real, but everything else is

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

*edit* :ph34r:ed by Elmo


Nothing is that simple.

The starkid is either an AI on the Citadel or Harbinger prjecting itself to Shepard. It is real as far as it is something genuinely communicating with Shepard.

Also, rather or not the conversation with TIM and anderson actually takes place is up in the air. I believe it does, but there is evidence for and against it.

#13625
Norlond

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StElmo wrote...

Norlond wrote...

Personally, I think WNT is more believable than IT-con


Can I guess the acronim? Waking Nightmare Theory?

Yeah I like that, thats cool.


You guessed right ^_^