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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#13776
byne

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Fixers0 wrote...

byne wrote...

He wasnt exactly very armored, and we dont even know if that kind of uniform has kinetic barriers on it.


He's dress uniform in the opening had kinetic barriers, so did Shepard's battledress

byne wrote...
But really, technically lots of people in the games shouldnt have died due to getting shot but did because thats how story and gameplay segregation works. Thats not exactly proof of anything.


I Directly refered to the codex, the codex is not gameplay.


Right, it is story.

#13777
spotlessvoid

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Ambrosine333 wrote...

IT naysayers, one thing we can all agree on is that Bioware is not taking sides. Trying to prove one idea is more right over another is a waste of time. Unless you're here to learn more about IT or genuinely want to provide compelling observations from the game, you being in this thread to "debate" is also a waste of everyone's time. If it's a merry go round of seeing who's got the cleverest passive aggressive response you're interested in, go start a thread somewhere else called "Indoctrination or literal?" or join one that exists and argue over there.

 

This

#13778
masster blaster

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Okay I asked Chris to come here and stop this argument, anyone who is complaining about IT is advice to leave, except Hanar. I told Chris that Hanar just wanted to explain why IT is not real as a Literalist view. And any IT that is saying GTFO is advise to stop saying this because I told Chris that this is uncalled for. So let us get back to speculations please.

#13779
byne

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masster blaster wrote...

Okay I asked Chris to come here and stop this argument, anyone who is complaining about IT is advice to leave, except Hanar. I told Chris that Hanar just wanted to explain why IT is not real as a Literalist view. And any IT that is saying GTFO is advise to stop saying this because I told Chris that this is uncalled for. So let us get back to speculations please.


Why the hell would you do that masster?

#13780
ebuchala

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MB, actually Hanar doesn't believe IT. He was really just mocking ITers yesterday when he pretended to suddenly believe.

#13781
princekai13

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Princekail13....
Greetings! I think the answer to number 5 can be answered several ways.

Bioware wanted a meta ending that "indoctrinates" Shepard as well as the player

Bioware didn't have enough development time to add the ending in full so instead left a cliff hanger

Bioware is milking this for all the MP and DLC money they can by keeping people speculating until the big reveal down the line

Bioware can't write and we're just making all this up



Can't honestly say I buy the first one.  The second I can see, easily.  I've seen what short development times can do to a good game (KOTOR2).  The third is a given, my one gripe would be "why mess with the ending?"  buying the game should give you everything you need, DLC should satisfy unsatiated wants.  Your last answer is my worst case senario.

Thanks for the reply, I hadn't even considered your second answer.

#13782
masster blaster

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demersel wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

 Look I came here to speculate not b**** about who is right, and GTFO.


Finally! 

So, the leviathan trailer. There is a reaper in it. It is on the same planet that the leviathan is. 

It is either leviathan itself, or it is just some reaper that followed shepard to find leviathan, and there will be a huge fight Leviathan vs this reaper. 

Thoughts? 


Ya I think that that's not Leviathan. I mean Leviathan is in the ocean right now as it seems, and maybe this Reaper is about to shot down Shepard, but leviathan interviens,

#13783
spotlessvoid

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masster blaster wrote...

Okay I asked Chris to come here and stop this argument, anyone who is complaining about IT is advice to leave, except Hanar. I told Chris that Hanar just wanted to explain why IT is not real as a Literalist view. And any IT that is saying GTFO is advise to stop saying this because I told Chris that this is uncalled for. So let us get back to speculations please.


what?!  just......what?

#13784
byne

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princekai13 wrote...

Can't honestly say I buy the first one.  The second I can see, easily.  I've seen what short development times can do to a good game (KOTOR2). 


Yknow, while KotOR 2 wasnt BioWare, they did want to release DLC that would fix all the problems with the game and actually make the endings make more sense, Microsoft just didnt let them.

So yknow, trying to extend development time by trying to release stuff that was intended to be in the game as DLC isnt exactly unheard of.

#13785
spotlessvoid

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ebuchala wrote...

MB, actually Hanar doesn't believe IT. He was really just mocking ITers yesterday when he pretended to suddenly believe.

Can't believe you are siding with a condescending, rude, proven troll over your own IT brethren. Really disappointed in you Blaster.

#13786
masster blaster

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byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Okay I asked Chris to come here and stop this argument, anyone who is complaining about IT is advice to leave, except Hanar. I told Chris that Hanar just wanted to explain why IT is not real as a Literalist view. And any IT that is saying GTFO is advise to stop saying this because I told Chris that this is uncalled for. So let us get back to speculations please.


Why the hell would you do that masster?


Debate went form good to bad. once people other people came into it, it got out of hand. Also saying GTFO is a bit rash, I mean not everyone is saying this, but if they want a debate, then we should give them one. As well as they should listen to us, as we should listen to them. Bottem line is that let's all take a chill pill and refocues our selfs. i was amazid with Hanar and Paxxton, and a few others, but once everyone else came, well not you byne, and a few others. It went south. Also Chris is not online right now, and the last time I sent him a pm about this simliar scene, no reply, or nothing happend.

#13787
byne

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masster blaster wrote...

Also Chris is not online right now, and the last time I sent him a pm about this simliar scene, no reply, or nothing happend.


So then how in the hell is he gonna step in and put a stop to the argument if he's not online? Did you even try thinking this through for even one second?

I'm in a bad mood. I'm going afk for a bit before I yell at someone.

#13788
masster blaster

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spotlessvoid wrote...

ebuchala wrote...

MB, actually Hanar doesn't believe IT. He was really just mocking ITers yesterday when he pretended to suddenly believe.

Can't believe you are siding with a condescending, rude, proven troll over your own IT brethren. Really disappointed in you Blaster.


Does it solve anything, no it will just go on and on until one leaves. And I do like IT, and would never side with the Literalist, I am just showing both sides, that this is getting us no where, and we were having a good debate, but once other people, that didn't follow what was happening just went all out.

#13789
spotlessvoid

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byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also Chris is not online right now, and the last time I sent him a pm about this simliar scene, no reply, or nothing happend.


So then how in the hell is he gonna step in and put a stop to the argument if he's not online? Did you even try thinking this through for even one second?

I'm in a bad mood. I'm going afk for a bit before I yell at someone.


yeah I'm done with this too

#13790
masster blaster

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Forget it.<_<

Modifié par masster blaster, 25 août 2012 - 11:28 .


#13791
ebuchala

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spotlessvoid wrote...

ebuchala wrote...

MB, actually Hanar doesn't believe IT. He was really just mocking ITers yesterday when he pretended to suddenly believe.

Can't believe you are siding with a condescending, rude, proven troll over your own IT brethren. Really disappointed in you Blaster.


Aw, don't be down on him spotless, he just got taken in my Hanar's protestations of sincerity the other day. It's a nice, if naive, perspective.

#13792
Rifneno

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Wow. I'd think I picked a bad time to poke my head back in, then I remembered this is par for the course.

#13793
masster blaster

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ebuchala wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

ebuchala wrote...

MB, actually Hanar doesn't believe IT. He was really just mocking ITers yesterday when he pretended to suddenly believe.

Can't believe you are siding with a condescending, rude, proven troll over your own IT brethren. Really disappointed in you Blaster.


Aw, don't be down on him spotless, he just got taken in my Hanar's protestations of sincerity the other day. It's a nice, if naive, perspective.


I have always done this. to all Literalist, I have always tried to say you got a point, as do we, but we are getting no where with this. Also some Literalist actually respecte me, and they see IT to, but just want some ITers to show some respecte. i always tell them they have to do the same, and some Literalist are ITers now. 

#13794
princekai13

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byne wrote...


Yknow, while KotOR 2 wasnt BioWare, they did want to release DLC that would fix all the problems with the game and actually make the endings make more sense, Microsoft just didnt let them.

So yknow, trying to extend development time by trying to release stuff that was intended to be in the game as DLC isnt exactly unheard of.



True, the one deciding factor there for me would be if it's free or not.  Take for example the extended cut, masterfully done from where I sit.  Had they charged for it, I could see a huge backlash of people saying things like "you're charging us for your screw up" or something similar.


Anyway, just to anybody happening to read this: I just saw a youtube of some bioware staff addressing the IT and from the tone, body language, laughter etc.  I'm going to side with a "no" on IT.  Later on in the video they talk about different people wrapping up different storylines.  For me, this explains some plotholes.  Most notably, the god-kid's assertion that synthetics will always kill their creators even though you solved the geth/quarian thing.  (that one always bugged me.)  I'm sure the majority of you have seen it, but just incase anyone hasn't but wants to:    They talk about IT around 16:00 or 16:30

#13795
demersel

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Also, about the literal interpretation of the endings. Let's assume, that they are what they are. And take high EMS Destroy. Bear we me. This has a point.

Shepard shoots the tube.
Tube explodes, explosion engulfs shepard.
The crucible starts to charge.
Hackett gives the retreat order.
Joker doesn't want to go, but he is told, there is no other choice.
The fleet flees.
Crucible produces a pulse
Pulse destroys reapers in orbit.
Pulse reaches earth and kills reapers and reaper ground forces there.
Citadel produces a concentraded beam and the BLOWS up.
Beam reaches the mass relay and is retranslated. Relay is falling apart.
Reapers are destroyed by the retranslated beam all across the galaxy.
The beam is retranslated across the galaxy.
Normandy tries to outrun the beam, but fails.
Normandy is crashed on the jungle planet. Joker and some teammates come out.

Slide show starts, Hackett is narrating.
We are shown fleet flying past an inactive and dameged mass relay.
Slide show starts - we see london being rebuild.
we see citadel in pieces.
we see some more places, like tuchanka in dfifferent stages of being rebuilt and repopulated
We see london completely rebuilt and the beam operational.
We see citadel completely rebuilt in orbit of earth and connected to earth by the beam.
We see momarial scene on the normandy. It end before shepards name is placed on the wall - the LI is just holding it.
We see Nornandy, completely repaired, take off and fly away into sunset (sunrise),
Fade to black.
Music stops.

We see some rubble, pan to a body with N7 dogtags and in burned N7 armor - a person which we assume is shepard takes a breath.
Snap-cut to black, roll credits.


Now. My questions are.
1 - If what we see is whgat is really happenning, How can shepard take a breath ofter all this time (presomably it took from years to decades to rebuild everything.)
2 - If everything in the ending is literal, and shepard is on the citadel, how did he survive the explosion that tore the station to pieces, and originated from his exact location?
3 - If everything is literal, and shepard is on the citadel, how is he not discovered when the citadel is being rebuilt?


And also not related to the above, but interesting non the less:
4 - If everything is literal, how can shepard see the exact things that are going to happen, before making a choice, when he ask the catalyst to firther explain what each choice will do?

By the power of the method, called Proof of Contradiction

I declare, that at least everything, that is happening between the making of the choice and the breath scene is a dream in every ending.
If that is a dream - then everything else in the ending is also a dream. The exact point where the dream starts is very difficult to deternine, but it is somewhere after you kill the reaper destroyer with the missiles (tha last traditional gameplay segment).

Modifié par demersel, 26 août 2012 - 12:04 .


#13796
ebuchala

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Masster, I hate to say it but I really think he's playing you. But it's all a moot point now, I suppose.

Back to IT stuff--I'm curious about the section CleverNoob covered in his video regarding seeing the control room from the other side of the walkway when you come out of the hall of bodies after the beam transport. Since I've only been involved here on this thread (Mark III) was the disappearing Anderson discussed on any of the other threads? Does anyone have any thoughts or input on it?

#13797
demersel

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Fixers0 wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...
Maybe the lack of kinetic shielding should be a clue that that scene isn't entirely real B).


demersel wrote...

But he did. And that means....?


It shows the writers don't give a **** about lore any more .


How did you come up with that conclusion?  Not to mention that there are countless cases in all three games, when you shoot people with a pistol in a cut scene - and they die. (sometimes they are even dressed in full armor, like the eclipse asari merc in ME2 thane recruitment mission)

Modifié par demersel, 25 août 2012 - 11:49 .


#13798
masster blaster

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smokingotter1 wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

*Selective snip* Comments in blue. I always like to remember when I'm immersed in a story that the characters are not only speaking to each other but throught the character to the audience.

Okay on Thessia Tim says " They are just trying to Control US. Think about it. If they wanted all organic life Destroyed, they could do it..." At this part of the game I was open to control a bit. I mean if the reapers were fighting Cerberus on sancturary Cerberus must be on to something. Little disappointed that there was no way to let Miranda's Dad live. I know he was a monster, but given the stakes...(mmm steak) I would have been open to working with him, with him dead I didn't believe there was a chance in hell Cerberus could control anything.

then TIM says " I know them Shepard. I know how they think." One thing the writers of Mass Effect hit us on the head over and over again is that the reaper motives are unknowable. This is a warning sign of indoctrination and why you should always be wary of the starchild. If the geth with all their fancy microchips cannot fathom what the reapers mind is like after interfacing with one how is a starchild going to explain in a minute the entire reaper mindset? More likely the mind rationalizes serving the reapers, one way or another.

Then TIM says: "And I can say the same to you. Wasting your time, on a war that can not be won."

But then Shepard says " At LEAST I am fighting."

dam makes you wonder if Destroy you are still fighting. "This is very true, indoctrination changes the way you think and act in ways you may or may not be able to explain. If the decision chamber is an overlay of reality what exactly is Shepard shooting at? The conduit beam dies when Shepard chooses destroy, could it be possible that if Shepard will not willingly open his mind to indoctrination that the reapers will compel Shepard to sabotage the conduit beam thus making sure no one makes it to the citadel?

But then TIM says " Never question my ability to fight. I've been fighting the Reapers longer than you can imagine." [color=rgb(0, 0, 128)">"The writers are also refering to TIM ]It's a miracle TIM [/color]has lasted so long before going full bore indoctrinated.

But then TIM says later[b] " Shepard there are choices coming that you're not equipped to make."
TIM is currently 100% correct, ME3 ends in a cliffhanger with Shepard still in London in a bunch of rubble with Harbinger still around. Not a very good position to be in. Shepard does not have the tools to win the battle against the reapers...yet. *cough* DLC.



You know, people complain about your giant walls of text, masster, but I like how you always pull evidence directly from the source.

This dialogue definitely has some interesting elements. The foreshadowing about the "choices you are not equipped to make" might be a hint that TIM knows about the Starbrat.


Ya TIM is out of the question.

#13799
masster blaster

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masster blaster wrote...

Holy S***. I found a good renegade option for the Conversation with TIM, on Thessia, and Cronus station, and the Citadel.



okay this sums up everything I was trying to say about Renegade Shepard.

Okay on Thessia Tim says " They are just trying to Control US. Think about it. If they wanted all organic life Destroyed, they could do it..."
then TIM says " I know them Shepard. I know how they think."

Well of course you do your Indoctrinated. That's why you can think like they do.

Then my personal favorite Shepard: " The Reapers have it right. Your Indoctrinated.Your doing just what they want."

Then TIM says: "And I can say the same to you. Wasting your time, on a war that can not be won."

But then Shepard says " At LEAST I am fighting."

dam makes you wonder if Destroy you are still fighting.

But then TIM says " Never question my ability to fight. I've been fighting the Reapers longer than you can imagine."

Oh so he has been fighting the Reapers, but you only can now that if you read the comic book, about how TIM got his eyes, and Cerberus stated.
But then TIM says later " Shepard there are choices coming that you're not equipped to make."

major foreshadowing, and Equipped to make, but what does he mean equipped to make?

But then Shepard says " At least I'll be making them as a human being, your just some Reaper puppet."

okay next is Cronus station okay nothing major here, but Shepard asked TIM, about how many did you kill to get to where you are at, but TIM says " You wouldn't listen to me"


Okay this is the last Conversation we have with TIM, he tells Shepard that He needs Shepard to believe, but for what, and then later Shepard tells TIM that that the power has clouded him, and the TIM tells SHEPARD " Are YOU going to Control the Reapers." That's right.He tells Shepard are you going to Control the Reapers. Then TIM goes rage quite when Shepard tells Tim you are weak, and selfish, but it's funny because TIM says " I am the Pinnacle of our species

Harbinger "we are the principle of Evolution."

I did this because Renegade Shepard always get's on TIMs bad side, and TIM revels much more information, unlike Paragon Shepard. So the diffrence is that Renegade Shepard shows tahtZTIm is Indoctrinated, and Shepard might be going under Indoctrination. But Paragon Shepard always questions if you can does hits, then help me. But renegade Shepard is like if you can do it, then do it.

I think that's why Bioware asked have you played through ALL possible out comes yet, since renegade revels much more about the endings, but Paragon is always trying to get TIm on his/her side, but without questioning, that TIM is Indoctrinated.

Edit:Please if you have something to say say it please.
I worked about an hour on this so please let me know if you like it, or not.


Well here is the reall thing,

#13800
spotlessvoid

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Keep in mind that they would never confirm IT in a public forum. If it was intentional, it would be an in game reveal Princekail

I think people are interpreting PAX wrong. 1. They don't deny IT
2. The "dedicated" comment: Mike's laugh was a nervous laugh in response to theaudience laughing