80611 réponses à ce sujet

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...

Are you an IT-con follower? 

[FFZero]

demersel wrote...

I'd like to point out a fact, that Chris Pristly, while i respect him, isnt' a writer, isn't a producer, isn't a game director, and isn't even a PR manager. He is a communty manager and forum moderator. He says and states only what he is told to say and state. At most he collects the feedback and forwards it to the devs, writers and producers. He also pulishes statements that are released to public. That's it.

While all that is true the community managers are privy to the teams future plans. I asked Jessica Merizan at Gamescom how much DLC we should expect for ME3, more or less than ME2, and she said she couldn’t say for sure since things change. She did say though that she knows about all of the teams plans for DLC.

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Ok. Let's start from the top. 
What was our original point of disagreement? 

Let's have a constructive discussion.  

Dream Theory: So Shepard wakes up... then Harbinger finishes what he started and vaporizes Shepard.

Essentially, Dream Theory presents a scenario where Shepard is either indoctrinated or killed. Either way the Reapers win. I'm not saying that it is an impossible, but people here don't take it as that. They go further and state Shepard get's up and the saga continues. In which case it IS incomplete and it DOES require DLC to work. If I have to headcanon the resolution of the series it is incomplete story.

However, I do disagre with everything taking place in his head because of certain aspects of the endings.  For instance, why would Shepard's subconscious in the Control ending involve the Citadel arms closing and the Control eruption reaching the Charon Mass Relay in the form of an energy wave as opposed to reaching it as a beam and causing severe explosions across the Citadel in the Synthesis and Destroy versions? Furthermore, if it is all a delusion why does the readiness of the allied fleets have any relevance whatsoever on what delusions Shepard perceives in the Crucible docking chamber? Why is there a high EMS necessity for Synthesis. Why does the choice to either preserve of destroy the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2 even matter in this regard with low EMS?

Ok. Your points are easy to counter, but it will take me some time to type. While i do so, please say what your solution to the puzzle? 

There is a breath scene after destroy.  What does it mean? 

also, this. I read your long post. Take some time and read mine. 

demersel wrote...

About the literal interpretation of the endings. Let's assume, that they are what they are. And take high EMS Destroy. Bear we me. This has a point.

Shepard shoots the tube. 
Tube explodes, explosion engulfs shepard. 
The crucible starts to charge. 
Hackett gives the retreat order. 
Joker doesn't want to go, but he is told, there is no other choice. 
The fleet flees.
Crucible produces a pulse
Pulse destroys reapers in orbit. 
Pulse reaches earth and kills reapers and reaper ground forces there. 
Citadel produces a concentraded beam and the BLOWS up.
Beam reaches the mass relay and is retranslated. Relay is falling apart.
Reapers are destroyed by the retranslated beam all across the galaxy. 
The beam is retranslated across the galaxy. 
Normandy tries to outrun the beam, but fails. 
Normandy is crashed on the jungle planet. Joker and some teammates come out. 

Slide show starts, Hackett is narrating. 
We are shown fleet flying past an inactive and dameged mass relay.
Slide show starts - we see london being rebuild. 
we see citadel in pieces.
we see some more places, like tuchanka in dfifferent stages of being rebuilt and repopulated 
We see london completely rebuilt and the beam operational.
We see citadel completely rebuilt in orbit of earth and connected to earth by the beam. 
We see momarial scene on the normandy. It end before shepards name is placed on the wall - the LI is just holding it. 
We see Nornandy, completely repaired, take off and fly away into sunset (sunrise),
Fade to black. 
Music stops. 

We see some rubble, pan to a body with N7 dogtags and in burned N7 armor - a person which we assume is shepard takes a breath. 
Snap-cut to black, roll credits. 


Now. My questions are. 
1 - If what we see is whgat is really happenning, How can shepard take a breath ofter all this time (presomably it took from years to decades to rebuild everything.) 
2 - If everything in the ending is literal, and shepard is on the citadel, how did he survive the explosion that tore the station to pieces, and originated from his exact location?
3 - If everything is literal, and shepard is on the citadel, how is he not discovered when the citadel is being rebuilt?


And also not related to the above, but interesting non the less:
4 - If everything is literal, how can shepard see the exact things that are going to happen, before making a choice, when he ask the catalyst to firther explain what each choice will do? 

By the power of the method, called Proof of Contradiction

I declare, that at least everything, that is happening between the making of the choice and the breath scene is a dream in every ending. 
If that is a dream - then everything else in the ending is also a dream. The exact point where the dream starts is very difficult to deternine, but it is somewhere after you kill the reaper destroyer with the missiles (tha last traditional gameplay segment). 

 

Modifié par demersel, 26 août 2012 - 01:12 .

[demersel]

FFZero wrote...

demersel wrote...

I'd like to point out a fact, that Chris Pristly, while i respect him, isnt' a writer, isn't a producer, isn't a game director, and isn't even a PR manager. He is a communty manager and forum moderator. He says and states only what he is told to say and state. At most he collects the feedback and forwards it to the devs, writers and producers. He also pulishes statements that are released to public. That's it.

While all that is true the community managers are privy to the teams future plans. I asked Jessica Merizan at Gamescom how much DLC we should expect for ME3, more or less than ME2, and she said she couldn’t say for sure since things change. She did say though that she knows about all of the teams plans for DLC.

And again - she tells you only what she's allowed or told to say. She is a PR person. Not head of PR. but a person that does the PR on foot so to speak. 

[TJBartlemus]

The Twilight God wrote...

Dream Theory: So Shepard wakes up... then Harbinger finishes what he started and vaporizes Shepard.

Essentially, Dream Theory presents a scenario where Shepard is either indoctrinated or killed. Either way the Reapers win. I'm not saying that it is an impossible, but people here don't take it as that. They go further and state Shepard get's up and the saga continues. In which case it IS incomplete and it DOES require DLC to work. If I have to headcanon the resolution of the series it is incomplete story.

It doesn't necessarily need DLC to prove...it could be proven in ME4, which is unlikely IMO. Sure Chris said no more DLC affecting endings (which wouldn't prove IT as shown by EC) but he has yet to say there will be no epilogue DLC. 

However, I do disagre with everything taking place in his head because of certain aspects of the endings.  For instance, why would Shepard's subconscious in the Control ending involve the Citadel arms closing and the Control eruption reaching the Charon Mass Relay in the form of an energy wave as opposed to reaching it as a beam and causing severe explosions across the Citadel in the Synthesis and Destroy versions? Furthermore, if it is all a delusion why does the readiness of the allied fleets have any relevance whatsoever on what delusions Shepard perceives in the Crucible docking chamber? Why is there a high EMS necessity for Synthesis. Why does the choice to either preserve of destroy the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2 even matter in this regard with low EMS?

Why does EMS matter? Hmm...why do the loyalty missions matter? To make sure squadies are alive thus making sure Shepard is alive. The EMS is similar to this. The more EMS the more confident Shepard is, which makes indoctrination harder cause Indoctrination requires breaking the victims will. 

[TJBartlemus]

 Well...while waiting for rebuttals to my points I am going to put up a question...

"What would you guys think, if the endings are literal, if Coats was the new protagonist that we control in ME4? What would your reactions be? It would make sense cause Coats survives everything and is present in all choices/EMS. (shown in slides) We also know almost nothing about him so it provides a blank slate for background." (IMO it would be horrible if BioWare did that...)

[estebanus]

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Well...while waiting for rebuttals to my points I am going to put up a question...

"What would you guys think, if the endings are literal, if Coats was the new protagonist that we control in ME4? What would your reactions be? It would make sense cause Coats survives everything and is present in all choices/EMS. (shown in slides) We also know almost nothing about him so it provides a blank slate for background." (IMO it would be horrible if BioWare did that...)

...And subsequently eliminating the freedom to choose your own gender? Yeah, I think I'll pass.

[Arashi08]

estebanus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Well...while waiting for rebuttals to my points I am going to put up a question...

"What would you guys think, if the endings are literal, if Coats was the new protagonist that we control in ME4? What would your reactions be? It would make sense cause Coats survives everything and is present in all choices/EMS. (shown in slides) We also know almost nothing about him so it provides a blank slate for background." (IMO it would be horrible if BioWare did that...)

...And subsequently eliminating the freedom to choose your own gender? Yeah, I think I'll pass.

As would I...

[byne]

estebanus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Well...while waiting for rebuttals to my points I am going to put up a question...

"What would you guys think, if the endings are literal, if Coats was the new protagonist that we control in ME4? What would your reactions be? It would make sense cause Coats survives everything and is present in all choices/EMS. (shown in slides) We also know almost nothing about him so it provides a blank slate for background." (IMO it would be horrible if BioWare did that...)

...And subsequently eliminating the freedom to choose your own gender? Yeah, I think I'll pass.

I bet even with only one gender, FemCoats would still have a better VA.

[estebanus]

Harbinger can't kill Shepard if it's already dead.

Modifié par estebanus, 26 août 2012 - 01:25 .

[Hrothdane]

TJBartlemus wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Dream Theory: So Shepard wakes up... then Harbinger finishes what he started and vaporizes Shepard.

Essentially, Dream Theory presents a scenario where Shepard is either indoctrinated or killed. Either way the Reapers win. I'm not saying that it is an impossible, but people here don't take it as that. They go further and state Shepard get's up and the saga continues. In which case it IS incomplete and it DOES require DLC to work. If I have to headcanon the resolution of the series it is incomplete story.

It doesn't necessarily need DLC to prove...it could be proven in ME4, which is unlikely IMO. Sure Chris said no more DLC affecting endings (which wouldn't prove IT as shown by EC) but he has yet to say there will be no epilogue DLC. 

However, I do disagre with everything taking place in his head because of certain aspects of the endings.  For instance, why would Shepard's subconscious in the Control ending involve the Citadel arms closing and the Control eruption reaching the Charon Mass Relay in the form of an energy wave as opposed to reaching it as a beam and causing severe explosions across the Citadel in the Synthesis and Destroy versions? Furthermore, if it is all a delusion why does the readiness of the allied fleets have any relevance whatsoever on what delusions Shepard perceives in the Crucible docking chamber? Why is there a high EMS necessity for Synthesis. Why does the choice to either preserve of destroy the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2 even matter in this regard with low EMS?

Why does EMS matter? Hmm...why do the loyalty missions matter? To make sure squadies are alive thus making sure Shepard is alive. The EMS is similar to this. The more EMS the more confident Shepard is, which makes indoctrination harder cause Indoctrination requires breaking the victims will. 

Building off the bolded part, low EMS means that it takes far more effort for Shepard's squad to reach the beam. If you watch the squadmates die, they look too exhausted to move out of the way of the beam. Seeing two close friends die as he/she watches helplessly damages Shepard's morale and will immensely.

I'll get back to you on the Collector Base matter. I'm hammering out a theory on that, but I need more time to work out kinks in it.

[estebanus]

byne wrote...

estebanus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Well...while waiting for rebuttals to my points I am going to put up a question...

"What would you guys think, if the endings are literal, if Coats was the new protagonist that we control in ME4? What would your reactions be? It would make sense cause Coats survives everything and is present in all choices/EMS. (shown in slides) We also know almost nothing about him so it provides a blank slate for background." (IMO it would be horrible if BioWare did that...)

...And subsequently eliminating the freedom to choose your own gender? Yeah, I think I'll pass.

I bet even with only one gender, FemCoats would still have a better VA.

That doesn't matter to me. I'm a soldier. And when I play a video game, then I damn well want to play a soldier with my own gender! I'm fed up with the notion that male protagonists somehow are better than female ones. I'm living proof that females also can be soldiers!

[Ambrosine333]

I think if Bioware were to continue the ME series, it'd be fun to do a similar setup as DAO and let players choose their race/gender (unrealistic I know, since some female aliens have yet to be revealed), each race having their own little background. It'd be a nice change of pace from Shepard

[The Twilight God]

Hrothdane wrote...

As for your original post, Twilight God, you mentioned that the evidence could go either way on whether the TIM and Anderson scene actually takes place or not. If you were to take the position that it was not real, when do you think the "unrealness" starts and ends and why?

Why would Shepard's subconscious in the Control ending involve the Citadel arms closing and the Control eruption reaching the Charon Mass Relay in the form of an energy wave as opposed to reaching it as a beam and causing severe explosions across the Citadel in the Synthesis and Destroy versions? Furthermore, if it is all a delusion why does the readiness of the allied fleets have any relevance whatsoever on what delusions Shepard perceives in the Crucible docking chamber? Why is there a high EMS necessity for Synthesis. Why does the choice to either preserve of destroy the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2 even matter in this regard with low EMS?

Hackett is narrating. Or EDI is narrating or Shepard is narrating. The Shepard one being iffy.. OK. That could just be an extention of his delusion. In my case, I believe it just a narration from the indoctrinated perspective. Same for EDI. But Hackett and EDI (indoctrinated or otherwise) are distinct people. So I take those narrations at face value. Those individuals stating that they hope or think the future will bring. Give the variations in the endings and the fleet strength being a determinant I see no reason to think it didn't happen.

There are other subtle things in the ending that also hint it's real. The EC actually left more clues

1. The way the Crucible fires. Control and Synthesis continue drawing power from it (beam), but in Destroy that cord is cut before it fires. We know from Refusal that that beam is a Citadel function, not Crucible as the Kid can turn it off.
2. Liara says "the Crucible didn't work" vs "We never got to use the Crucible"
3. Also the fact that if Shepard dallies for too long the Repaers destroy the Crucible.
4. Shepards eyes turning TIM-like on the control prongs and in the beam. If he's being tricked and it's just in his head why would he see it that way. 
5. Hackett stating "he made it" in that one cutscene.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 26 août 2012 - 01:41 .

[TJBartlemus]

 Now that I got all of your attention...I want to show something odd.

Have you noticed that in the new scenes of the EC regarding how Hackett knew Shep was on the Citadel the ships in relation to the Crucible change positions. Look from 7:22 to 7: 40 and you will see what I mean. In the first the Alliance ships are backwards to the front of the Crucible and then 10 secs later they have pulled a full 180. 

[byne]

estebanus wrote...

byne wrote...

estebanus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Well...while waiting for rebuttals to my points I am going to put up a question...

"What would you guys think, if the endings are literal, if Coats was the new protagonist that we control in ME4? What would your reactions be? It would make sense cause Coats survives everything and is present in all choices/EMS. (shown in slides) We also know almost nothing about him so it provides a blank slate for background." (IMO it would be horrible if BioWare did that...)

...And subsequently eliminating the freedom to choose your own gender? Yeah, I think I'll pass.

I bet even with only one gender, FemCoats would still have a better VA.

That doesn't matter to me. I'm a soldier. And when I play a video game, then I damn well want to play a soldier with my own gender! I'm fed up with the notion that male protagonists somehow are better than female ones. I'm living proof that females also can be soldiers!

I play a female character in pretty much every game that allows it. I'm not even female, I just figure I've played enough male characters in other games that its nice when I can be a female who kicks ass for once.

Thats one of the the things I liked about Halo Reach. Finally a female Spartan you can play as.

[estebanus]

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Now that I got all of your attention...I want to show something odd.

Have you noticed that in the new scenes of the EC regarding how Hackett knew Shep was on the Citadel the ships in relation to the Crucible change positions. Look from 7:22 to 7: 40 and you will see what I mean. In the first the Alliance ships are backwards to the front of the Crucible and then 10 secs later they have pulled a full 180. 

So? Probably just a mistake. Happens all the time in video games.

[estebanus]

byne wrote...

estebanus wrote...

byne wrote...

estebanus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Well...while waiting for rebuttals to my points I am going to put up a question...

"What would you guys think, if the endings are literal, if Coats was the new protagonist that we control in ME4? What would your reactions be? It would make sense cause Coats survives everything and is present in all choices/EMS. (shown in slides) We also know almost nothing about him so it provides a blank slate for background." (IMO it would be horrible if BioWare did that...)

...And subsequently eliminating the freedom to choose your own gender? Yeah, I think I'll pass.

I bet even with only one gender, FemCoats would still have a better VA.

That doesn't matter to me. I'm a soldier. And when I play a video game, then I damn well want to play a soldier with my own gender! I'm fed up with the notion that male protagonists somehow are better than female ones. I'm living proof that females also can be soldiers!

I play a female character in pretty much every game that allows it. I'm not even female, I just figure I've played enough male characters in other games that its nice when I can be a female who kicks ass for once.

Thats one of the the things I liked about Halo Reach. Finally a female Spartan you can play as.

one of the main reasons why I like Mass Effect so much is that I can finally play as a female protagonist that isn't totally oversexed. That just pisses me off.

[TJBartlemus]

The Twilight God wrote...

There are other subtle things in the ending that also hint it's real. The EC actually left more clues

1. The way the Crucible fires. Control and Synthesis continue drawing power from it (beam), but in Destroy that cord is cut before it fires. We know from Refusal that that beam is a Citadel function, not Crucible as the Kid can turn it off.
2. Liara says "the Crucible didn't work" vs "We never got to use the Crucible"
3. Also the fact that if Shepard dallies for too long the Repaers destroy the Crucible.
4. Shepards eyes turning TIM-like on the control prongs and in the beam. If he's being tricked and it's just in his head why would he see it that way. 
5. Hackett stating "he made it" in that one cutscene.

The EC equally added more clues that it is all fake. 

1 and 2. It is not proven that these scenes are real. For all we know they are still Reaper fed illusions.
3. This could be explained that the Reapers are impatient that Shep is taking too long to make a decision and decide to just kill him in frustration.
4. This is the Reaper's (BioWare's) way to show that you were tricked.
5. He/She made it....means really nothing. It could mean many things. He made it could mean he was successful in getting someone to the Citadel. Doesn't necessarily mean Shep made it to the Citadel. Anyone could of.

[TJBartlemus]

estebanus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Now that I got all of your attention...I want to show something odd.

Have you noticed that in the new scenes of the EC regarding how Hackett knew Shep was on the Citadel the ships in relation to the Crucible change positions. Look from 7:22 to 7: 40 and you will see what I mean. In the first the Alliance ships are backwards to the front of the Crucible and then 10 secs later they have pulled a full 180. 

So? Probably just a mistake. Happens all the time in video games.

Post production of the main game? In a DLC that could mean the future of ME in EA's and the fan population eyes? No I don't think so. Not with so much riding on it to go 100% the way it is supposed to. They had plenty of time to see it and fix it.  

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 26 août 2012 - 01:41 .

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...

Dream Theory: So Shepard wakes up... then Harbinger finishes what he started and vaporizes Shepard.

 

No he doesn't. Don't make unbased ussumpions. Shepard lies there in the dark. It's quite. No sounds or light flashes, that might indicate ongoing battle. No reaper sounds. That means that harbinger is not around for some reason. At least at that particular moment.  

The Twilight God wrote... 
Essentially, Dream Theory presents a scenario where Shepard is either indoctrinated or killed. Either way the Reapers win.
I'm not saying that it is an impossible, but people here don't take it as that. They go further and state Shepard get's up and the saga continues. In which case it IS incomplete and it DOES require DLC to work. If I have to headcanon the resolution of the series it is incomplete story.

Again pure unbased speculation. Mass Effect 3 end's when shepard is either gets indoctrinated, breaks free of it. (which is by the NO SMALL FEAT - it is nearly impossible to do so).   Shepard making the impossible! Breaking free of indoctrination! That's sounds like a great point to end the game to me! You disagree? Too bad, cause the game really does end there. 

The Twilight God wrote... 
However, I do disagre with everything taking place in his head because of certain aspects of the endings.  For instance, why would Shepard's subconscious in the Control ending involve the Citadel arms closing and the Control eruption reaching the Charon Mass Relay in the form of an energy wave as opposed to reaching it as a beam and causing severe explosions across the Citadel in the Synthesis and Destroy versions? Furthermore, if it is all a delusion why does the readiness of the allied fleets have any relevance whatsoever on what delusions Shepard perceives in the Crucible docking chamber? Why is there a high EMS necessity for Synthesis. Why does the choice to either preserve of destroy the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2 even matter in this regard with low EMS?

Let me quote my own post again:

demersel wrote...

1 - If what we see is whgat is really happenning, How can shepard take a breath ofter all this time (presomably it took from years to decades to rebuild everything.) 
2 - If everything in the ending is literal, and shepard is on the citadel, how did he survive the explosion that tore the station to pieces, and originated from his exact location?
3 - If everything is literal, and shepard is on the citadel, how is he not discovered when the citadel is being rebuilt?
4 - If everything is literal, how can shepard see the exact things that are going to happen, before making a choice, when he ask the catalyst to firther explain what each choice will do? 

By the power of the method, called Proof of Contradiction

I declare, that at least everything, that is happening between the making of the choice and the breath scene is a dream in every ending. 
If that is a dream - then everything else in the ending is also a dream. The exact point where the dream starts is very difficult to deternine, but it is somewhere after you kill the reaper destroyer with the missiles (tha last traditional gameplay segment). 

 

You assume that indoctrination has the purpose to take control of shepard. Why? What would be the point? You could just kill him - that would have the same effect on the morals of opposition. If you turn him do your bidding what would be the use of that?

I state that the final scenes are infact a reaper infused dream. It is also a battle. The point is, reapers, namely Harbinger, are trying to destroy Shepard. Destroy everything that he is, and humiliate him in the process. Crush his will t olive and fight, and SHOW IT TO HIM. MAKE HIM COUNCIUSLY ABANDON HIS IDEALS. And lose a will to live. 

EMS is relevant here because it determines Shepard's will strengh. If the EMS is high - it means that shepard KNOWS he did everything he could and the galaxy is as ready to fight the reapers as it can ever be. He kwos there are assets, allies that are fighting. He knows what he's done and accoumplished. And that gives him strengh to resist. When crushing and subverting fails - reapers try to make shepard LET GO. To be at peace with the way things are. this is whe the show him what the crucible does, what happens to the normandy (in high ems before EC normandy crushes but the crew survives, but they are stranded forever on the planet and shepard will never see them again, in the EC they fly off into the sunrise - they'll be fine). and the slide show. Reapers try to make you either to stop to care, or to let go and make peace. (and that is exactly what has happened in real life, to many ME fans - they either stopped caring, or let go). 

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...
2. Liara says "the Crucible didn't work" vs "We never got to use the Crucible"

By the way... What happens if your EMS is LOW and you have LIARA with you at the beam run and she gets desintegrated, and then you choose refuse? 

How can she say the crucible didn't work or that they never got to use it is SHE's DEAD BEFORE that happens and she can record that messege???

[The Twilight God]

demersel wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

 I assert the endings make perfect sense and IT simply states what occurs.

I agree with this statement. 

Now, I've breezed through your long topic post that you gave the link for. And it seams to me that it is a detailed outline of the points that make the bulk of indoctrination theory's theoretical part (not proof related). 

So my question is this - hows that different from the Indoctrination Theory, and what exactly are we agrueing about then? 

It's not about being diffferent than IT. I'm saying dream theory is wrong. Not IT. Dream theory does not define IT. People call my theory Con IT (as the Kid is trying to "con" you into picking Synthesis and Control)

My Theory does not allow for Dream Theory. It states that everything occurs and that all endings actually occur. 

[TJBartlemus]

estebanus wrote...

byne wrote...

I play a female character in pretty much every game that allows it. I'm not even female, I just figure I've played enough male characters in other games that its nice when I can be a female who kicks ass for once.

Thats one of the the things I liked about Halo Reach. Finally a female Spartan you can play as.

one of the main reasons why I like Mass Effect so much is that I can finally play as a female protagonist that isn't totally oversexed. That just pisses me off.

I agree there should be choice in gender. Expecially in a game series ABOUT choice. There are however just some times that this is not possible to have this choice in order for the story to playout the way the devs want it. 

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...
It's not about being diffferent than IT. I'm saying dream theory is wrong. Not IT. Dream theory does not define IT. People call my theory Con IT (as the Kid is trying to "con" you into picking Synthesis and Control)

My Theory does not allow for Dream Theory. It states that everything occurs and that all endings actually occur. 

Ok. Now it's time for you to do some proving. Answer me the 4 questions from my post.

And there are more on the way.

Modifié par demersel, 26 août 2012 - 01:55 .