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[TJBartlemus]

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

 I assert the endings make perfect sense and IT simply states what occurs.

I agree with this statement. 

Now, I've breezed through your long topic post that you gave the link for. And it seams to me that it is a detailed outline of the points that make the bulk of indoctrination theory's theoretical part (not proof related). 

So my question is this - hows that different from the Indoctrination Theory, and what exactly are we agrueing about then? 

It's not about being diffferent than IT. I'm saying dream interpretation of the IT is wrong. Not IT. Dream interpretation of the IT does not define IT. People call my interpretation of the IT as Con IT (as the Kid is trying to "con" you into picking Synthesis and Control)

My interpretation does not allow for Dream Interpretation. It states that everything occurs and that all endings actually occur. 

Fixed for ya. :happy:

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 26 août 2012 - 01:56 .

[Hrothdane]

The Twilight God wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

As for your original post, Twilight God, you mentioned that the evidence could go either way on whether the TIM and Anderson scene actually takes place or not. If you were to take the position that it was not real, when do you think the "unrealness" starts and ends and why?

Why would Shepard's subconscious in the Control ending involve the Citadel arms closing and the Control eruption reaching the Charon Mass Relay in the form of an energy wave as opposed to reaching it as a beam and causing severe explosions across the Citadel in the Synthesis and Destroy versions? Furthermore, if it is all a delusion why does the readiness of the allied fleets have any relevance whatsoever on what delusions Shepard perceives in the Crucible docking chamber? Why is there a high EMS necessity for Synthesis. Why does the choice to either preserve of destroy the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2 even matter in this regard with low EMS?

Hackett is narrating. Or EDI is narrating or Shepard is narrating. The Shepard one being iffy.. OK. That could just be an extention of his delusion. In my case, I believe it just a narration from the indoctrinated perspective. Same for EDI. But Hackett and EDI (indoctrinated or otherwise) are distinct people. So I take those narrations at face value. Those individuals stating that they hope or think the future will bring. Give the variations in the endings and the fleet strength being a determinant I see no reason to think it didn't happen.

There are other subtle things in the ending that also hint it's real. The EC actually left more clues

1. The way the Crucible fires. Control and Synthesis continue drawing power from it (beam), but in Destroy that cord is cut before it fires. We know from Refusal that that beam is a Citadel function, not Crucible as the Kid can turn it off.
2. Liara says "the Crucible didn't work" vs "We never got to use the Crucible"
3. Also the fact that if Shepard dallies for too long the Repaers destroy the Crucible.
4. Shepards eyes turning TIM-like on the control prongs and in the beam. If he's being tricked and it's just in his head why would he see it that way. 
5. Hackett stating "he made it" in that one cutscene.

TJ and I gave a partial answer to the EMS thing further up the page.

1. Symbolism, I gather. The beam stays on as long as Starbinger is trying to control Shepard. Cutting the cord breaks free, and he turns it off in refuse because he has broken Shepard and no longer considers him/her worth controlling, as evidenced by him suddenly pulling out the Harbinger voice and dropping the facade.
2. "The Crucible didn't work" is a little ambiguous. She could mean either it physically did not operate, or that it failed to solve the Reaper problem and that it shouldn't be tried again.
3. If Shepard waits too long, he/she dies in real life.
4. We have precedents of Benezia and others that knew they were indoctrinated. The eyes turning like TIM's could be a representation of that. Alternatively, it could be a metaphor for Shepard following TIM's wishes. Alternatively again, we as players occasionally see events that Shepard could not have seen him/herself. Shepard can't see his/her own eyes for obvious reasons, so it could be intended as a hint to the player that something is up.
5. Why does Hackett say "He/she made it" instead of "They made it" since Anderson got up as well or even just "Someone made it?" How does he know anyone made it after Coats's last report said nobody made it, and how does he know it is Shepard?

I would also like to point out that the dreams from throughout the game show that BioWare associates dreams with symbolism, so we wouldn't just be pulling a "it's symbolism!" card out of our ass.

[demersel]

If everything is happening -

1-  how does shepard survive harbingers beam?
2 - why doesn't harbinger shoots the normandy down?
3 - how can Coats be in all the slideshows if he's dead on the citadel? (everything is happening, right )
4 - How come Anderson is ahead of Shepard, while narrating the same thing shepard see, at the moment that he sees them, and then magically appears at the console?
5 - How come TIM is on the citadel, and he's the only person alive there?
6 - What killed all those men in the hallway? (that one keeper?)
7 - How does Shepards radio still work?
8 - Why is the ammo unlimited? As appoused to (you lose cause you've ran out of ammo?)
9 - Why is Shepard wounded in the same spot Anderson was shot, and the camera makes a point of showing us this?
10 - How does Hackett contact shepard?
11 - Why doesn't shepard call for back up after the citadel is opened?
12 - Why doesn't hackett send back up as soon as it is opened? 
13 - How came Shepard is able to stand up when catalyst wakes him up?
14 - How can the catalyst show shepard excact footage of what will happen after the choice, if asked for more details?
15 - How's Synthesis even possible, how does it work? 
16 - How come in the slide show, we see the beam from earth connected to the citadel (at the bottom, exactly where the crucible should have gone before? if the beam is visible how come we don't see it before crucible docs?) And it goes to the presidium ring - how could it do so while the citadel was closed? 
17 - Why is on of the two soldiers, that is present in every cinematic is the same soldier, that lies dead by the stone, when marauder shields appear? 
18 - How come they didn't find shepard while rebuilding the citadel in high EMS destroy? 
19 - How come Shepard takes a breath only after everything that was in the slide show was shown (and those events span for decades)? 

Modifié par demersel, 26 août 2012 - 02:17 .

[Steelcan]

Has OP put in clevernoob's EC documentary yet?

[byne]

Steelcan wrote...

Has OP put in clevernoob's EC documentary yet?

Havent watched it yet, and I generally like to watch videos before adding them to the OP. Will watch it either tonight or tomorrow and add it then.

[The Twilight God]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Can't find the link twilight God...here's the quote though


from Chris Priestly "I answered this. There will be no more new endings. I used the "quotes" as we consider the Extended Cut the ending, the finale, the stop whatever you want to call it of the ending of Mass Effect 3. We do not plan to make new endings, give more closure to the endings, adding or subtracting to or from the endings, etc. We are done with the endings.

New (or should I say real) endings only effect Dream Theory.  This isn't what we and hanar were even discussing even if the hanar would like to pretend it was so.
 
I assert it all happens. However, things do not play out in the end how the players is tricked into thinking into assuming it would. That goes for Destroy as well. Only Refuse is upfront about the situation.

[demersel]

Also ,how come in control it takes control only of reapers, and not all synthetic life, but in destroy it destroys all synthetic life, cause it can't differentiate?

[D.Sharrah]

anyone remember off the top of their head when a conflict btween organics and synthetics was first mentioned? Was it the mention of the Morning War in ME 1 or was there something in Ascencion (the book did come out first, right?)...

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...
New (or should I say real) endings only effect Dream Theory.  This isn't what we and hanar were even discussing even if the hanar would like to pretend it was so.
 
I assert it all happens. However, things do not play out in the end how the players is tricked into thinking into assuming it would. That goes for Destroy as well. Only Refuse is upfront about the situation.

Ok. How's that different from
Essentially, Dream Theory presents a scenario where Shepard is either indoctrinated or killed. Either way the Reapers win. I'm not saying that it is an impossible, but people here don't take it as that. They go further and state Shepard get's up and the saga continues. In which case it IS incomplete and it DOES require DLC to work. If I have to headcanon the resolution of the series it is incomplete story. 

?

[The Twilight God]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Also Twilight God...I have to disagree on the interpretation of Control. Control turns Shepard into an AI. (Am I wrong?) Sure what we are is shaped by our memories. This is shown in game in the Legion VI. This doesn't necessarily mean that an AI that has Shepard's memories is Shepard. Let's take an example. Dr. Halsey and Cortana. Cortana is an AI that has been copied from Dr. Halsey, but both have totally different personalities and both make different decisions.

There is also another thing. The Shepard that we control is composed of 2 things. Character Shep and Player Shep. Player Shep is essensially us who play the game. Character Shep is Shepard in the game that experiances everything and what he/she is reflects Player Sheps decisions. Well in Control we remove the Player Shep aspect of Shepard and Character Shep takes reign. It can make decisions on it's own without us and probably wouldn't choose what we Player Shep would of chosen.

Pretty much to sum it up my point is that after choosing control, "Shepard" isn't the Shepard we know anymore.

That's your own personal specualtion. If we are to assume Control is true and Shepard is actually in control then the Catalyst is telling the truth. He says, "your thoughts, and even your memories, will continue." What is Shepard if not his thoughts and memories? Again, the nature of consciousness is speculatory.

You're welcome to headcanon control however you like. Just like others headcanon their Shepard making a cylon body and reuniting with the crew.

[byne]

The Twilight God wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Also Twilight God...I have to disagree on the interpretation of Control. Control turns Shepard into an AI. (Am I wrong?) Sure what we are is shaped by our memories. This is shown in game in the Legion VI. This doesn't necessarily mean that an AI that has Shepard's memories is Shepard. Let's take an example. Dr. Halsey and Cortana. Cortana is an AI that has been copied from Dr. Halsey, but both have totally different personalities and both make different decisions.

There is also another thing. The Shepard that we control is composed of 2 things. Character Shep and Player Shep. Player Shep is essensially us who play the game. Character Shep is Shepard in the game that experiances everything and what he/she is reflects Player Sheps decisions. Well in Control we remove the Player Shep aspect of Shepard and Character Shep takes reign. It can make decisions on it's own without us and probably wouldn't choose what we Player Shep would of chosen.

Pretty much to sum it up my point is that after choosing control, "Shepard" isn't the Shepard we know anymore.

That's your own personal specualtion. If we are to assume Control is true and Shepard is actually in control then the Catalyst is telling the truth. He says, "your thoughts, and even your memories, will continue." What is Shepard if not his thoughts and memories? Again, the nature of consciousness is speculatory.

You're welcome to headcanon control however you like. Just like others headcanon their Shepard making a cylon body and reuniting with the crew.

Catalyst Shepard doesnt seem to see herself as being the same person as Shepard, though.

[D.Sharrah]

Secondly, can anyone point me to a place to find a list of all the instances of conflict between organics and synthetics throughout all of the lore?

[Steelcan]

byne wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Has OP put in clevernoob's EC documentary yet?

Havent watched it yet, and I generally like to watch videos before adding them to the OP. Will watch it either tonight or tomorrow and add it then.

Its kind of rambling and some of the points he makes are frankly quite foolish, but he still raises some excellent points in the video.

[Arashi08]

I actually haven't played the endings with EC, but I was wondering if shepard after the control ending does Shepard AI always say the exact same thing regardless of Shepard's Paragon/Renegade status? And if she doesn't, does that mean that she isn't the same Shepard that she was because it seems like her personality becomes aligned with the Reapers' motives and goals?

Just wondering.

[plfranke]

Byne do you really have to refer to Shepard as "her" and "she" constantly? Can't you just say Shepard? I personally don't see Shepard as a girl, but I don't go around saying "he this" and "him that".

[Gwyphon]

Steelcan wrote...

byne wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Has OP put in clevernoob's EC documentary yet?

Havent watched it yet, and I generally like to watch videos before adding them to the OP. Will watch it either tonight or tomorrow and add it then.

Its kind of rambling and some of the points he makes are frankly quite foolish, but he still raises some excellent points in the video.

Yeah the last 20 minutes were pretty hard to watch. He kind of goes all revolutionary out of no where...

Modifié par Gwyphon, 26 août 2012 - 03:01 .

[Steelcan]

plfranke wrote...

Byne do you really have to refer to Shepard as "her" and "she" constantly? Can't you just say Shepard? I personally don't see Shepard as a girl, but I don't go around saying "he this" and "him that".

Thank you

[Steelcan]

Gwyphon wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

byne wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Has OP put in clevernoob's EC documentary yet?

Havent watched it yet, and I generally like to watch videos before adding them to the OP. Will watch it either tonight or tomorrow and add it then.

Its kind of rambling and some of the points he makes are frankly quite foolish, but he still raises some excellent points in the video.

Some of the Coates stuff also seemed kind of pointless, and largely irrelevant

Yeah the last 20 minutes were pretty hard to watch. He kind of goes all revolutionary out of no where...

Modifié par Steelcan, 26 août 2012 - 03:08 .

[byne]

plfranke wrote...

Byne do you really have to refer to Shepard as "her" and "she" constantly? Can't you just say Shepard? I personally don't see Shepard as a girl, but I don't go around saying "he this" and "him that".

I dont have to, but I like to.

Using a gender neutral word like 'they' or just saying 'Shepard' all the time would seem weird, and I cant stand MaleShep, so I say 'her' and 'she.'

[Steelcan]

Ugh, still having scrolling problems ^. I said, some of the Coates stuff is largely irrelevant, as is the part where Anderson only appears once you cross a certain threshold

[Ambrosine333]

demersel wrote...

Also ,how come in control it takes control only of reapers, and not all synthetic life, but in destroy it destroys all synthetic life, cause it can't differentiate?

Because reaper brat is a douche.

But seriously, I question the catalyst not being able to tell the difference between reapers and other synthetics because destroying the geth and  EDI would be a big motivator to NOT choose that option, the only option that outright destroys the reapers. He's looking out for himself in other words. (You can also take it as "If you destroy us, we're taking your friend and the entire race you fought to protect with us.")

So it could be the Catalyst CAN tell the difference, and like usual, Starchild is lying.

[shepdog77]

byne wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Byne do you really have to refer to Shepard as "her" and "she" constantly? Can't you just say Shepard? I personally don't see Shepard as a girl, but I don't go around saying "he this" and "him that".

I dont have to, but I like to.

Using a gender neutral word like 'they' or just saying 'Shepard' all the time would seem weird, and I cant stand MaleShep, so I say 'her' and 'she.'

Sexist

[byne]

shepdog77 wrote...

byne wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Byne do you really have to refer to Shepard as "her" and "she" constantly? Can't you just say Shepard? I personally don't see Shepard as a girl, but I don't go around saying "he this" and "him that".

I dont have to, but I like to.

Using a gender neutral word like 'they' or just saying 'Shepard' all the time would seem weird, and I cant stand MaleShep, so I say 'her' and 'she.'

Sexist

Can I be sexist against my own gender?

[Dwailing]

byne wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Byne do you really have to refer to Shepard as "her" and "she" constantly? Can't you just say Shepard? I personally don't see Shepard as a girl, but I don't go around saying "he this" and "him that".

I dont have to, but I like to.

Using a gender neutral word like 'they' or just saying 'Shepard' all the time would seem weird, and I cant stand MaleShep, so I say 'her' and 'she.'

Don't worry, it all balances out in the end since I ALWAYS refer to Shepard as a guy.  I do occasionally say s/he or him/her, but the great majority of the time, it's he and him.  Plus, I've started a fan fiction from an IT perspective that uses BroShep, so... yeah.

[Arashi08]

plfranke wrote...

Byne do you really have to refer to Shepard as "her" and "she" constantly? Can't you just say Shepard? I personally don't see Shepard as a girl, but I don't go around saying "he this" and "him that".

I know this was directed at Byne but I wanted to respond too since I also refer to Shepars as "she".

Personally, if you want to refer to Shepard as "he" because your Shepard is male, then that's fine by me, I can't speak for Byne but I personally wouldn't care.  I see Shepard as female, that's my canon Shepard, if you see Shepard as male then you have every right to refer to Shepard as "he."  Honestly I refer to Shepard as she because that's how I see shepard, but also because it is less tedious than writing the name Shepard all the time, and I always manage to type it wrong when I try to do the whole "s/he" thing.  I honestly find that tedious too. 

When I talk about Shepard I usually refer to MY Shepard, since that's the Shepard I've played as, and therefore is also the hypothetical Shepard going through the scenarios the thread proposes.  That's the beauty of Shepard; she, or he, is in some way, a part of the player.  At least that's how I've always seen it.