80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Just wondering, is there any difference between vanilla IT and IT-con besides dream theory?

[CoolioThane]

Eurgh it's annoying my broken bike only has one gear (the lowest) so going up hills is nigh on impossible and the chain is prone to 'clunk' and cause one to take a tumble... D:

[Steelcan]

CoolioThane wrote...

Eurgh it's annoying my broken bike only has one gear (the lowest) so going up hills is nigh on impossible and the chain is prone to 'clunk' and cause one to take a tumble... D:

Might need a new bike, just a suggestion

[I_eat_unicorns]

Hrothdane wrote...

Putok wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

 
Would IT people still believe in IT if Bioware said "IT is wrong" word for word?

As if the ec dlc along with priestly's posts about no more ending changes wasn't enough, but would IT supporters still believe in the IT if Bioware said it was wrong verbaitm?

I think they would. The new vid of the IT just shows how much in denial the IT supporters are at this point, and how butthurt they are over the original endings and can't accept that they won't get better. 

During the original fiasco, people poured in money, formed groups, and ranted enough to get attention like this:
http://games.yahoo.c...-173411384.html 

http://www.nbcnews.c...answered-514404 

and then we got the ec dlc. It did a good job at addressing most of the community concerns, but it didn't fix the following major things:

- why is there an option to control the reapers when we just shot the illusive man over the idea two seconds ago?
- the whole "organics vs synthetics" cliche problem introduced at the last 10 min
- why synthesis is even an option when it goes against the me universe (I guess that has to do with the previous point)
- The origin of the reapers/why the kid is the catalyst (hoping leviathan will fix this issue)

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">After pouring in all of our resources as a community to get a better ending, and the most we got was an expansion, what else could we do? B*tch about them more to get a better ending? We have nowhere as near as much of the willpower as a community to do the same thing. I know a lot of people who've played the trilogy, got upset about the original endings, and were pretty satisfied with the ec dlc. Also, I'm pretty sure Bioware wanted to apoligize through the dlc  ] [/color]

That being said, I think it's time to move the IT dream, con, puzzle, and all speculations concerning the endings to the fan creation thread. It's what they are, and people can still believe them, because that's what fans do. 

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">At this point, currently believeing that the writers "secretly intended the IT to be correct" after the release of the EC DLC is exactly equal to believing that the thing in the box at the end of 'Seven ' was a ham sandwich, or that Obi Wan Kenobi was meant to be Luke Skywalker come back from the future to guide himself. ] [/color]

You can believe anything you want if that's how you derive entertainment, and there's nothing wrong with that. But if there can be a 'truth' to the structure of a work, it's the author's intention. And me's writers do not intend the IT, or any other over-speuclated fan theory to be that end. 

Most fan theories for the endings require ANOTHER game to finish the fight against the reapers. This is just being childish, as a trilogy is meant to end at just the endings. Bioware has also said multiple times that this is the end of shepard's story, no more commander shepard, and I know people have siad "OH TEY LIE", but if they say such stuff after the work is done like the ec dlc, I think they mean it, not like lying about the games endings after it went gold to promote sales. 

Even though this community loves the mass effect universe, I still think that these fan theories need to move to the fan creation thread since they go against the established works of the series. 

I just beat the game, and I thought the whole last mission was supposed to come off as being a waking dream or hallucination. I did't realize that there was debate over it until I came on the forum earlier today. TBH I thought it was obvious that it wasn't completely "real", but that's just my opinion. I still can't decide if it was nothing but a dream, or if only some parts of it were hallucinated. I lean more towards the later.

I find it interesting that people can see the same thing, but interpret it so differently.

I had pretty much the same experience. Right after the Harbinger beam I got the intense feeling that something was up here. Waking up on the Citadel with the weird noise reinforced that.

Way to dismiss everything I wrote. How did you feel that the ending was a dream?I thought the whole anderson/tim was real. And the stupid star kid. 

[desert_beagle]

Yes Restrider. Unfortunately, if the IT is true, it could be one of the most epic bait and switch marketing gimmicks I have ever seen in the game industry next to Sword Quest for the Atari 2600.

As an example, if the IT is what was planned all along, then BioWare and EA at some point had to decide to intentionally mislead their fans and package and sell a game as complete and as an end to a trilogy of epic proportions. When in fact the game is not complete and it is not an end, and in order to get the end you have buy more DLC.

I'm all for a company wanting to make money. It is their right to do. If they don't make money they can't make more great games. However, by sticking it to a loyal fan base and giving them something that can be used to just gouge them for more is unethical.

From a literallist standpoint, the original pre-EC ending is anti-climactic, and does no justice for the rest of the series. To compare, Modern Warfare 3 had a similarly anti-climactic ending, but it was still an end. No need to speculate, no need to care about a DLC that will finish Capt. Price's story. All of MW3's DLC is based around the multiplayer aspect of the CoD series and is purely optional.

Mass Effect 3 on the other hand, while the single player DLC is optional to purchase, BioWare in their statements about the ending, leading fans along with vague statements about the IT, and being tight lipped about everything is merely a way to make drooling fans who wanted more for the money they already spent, to just spend more.

With each single player DLC announcement the speculators are going to jump all over how it will effect the IT. Look at what has already happened over Leviathan. How many on this forum are going to buy it, just because there is the slight chance that it will give some small hint that the IT is true? That is exactly what EA wants, and it is the exact kind of predatory marketing in the gaming industry that I am sick of.

I want the IT to be true. It would make the journey my Shepard went through mean something. I don't want to have to pay extra to make that journey mean something when the box of ME3 on the back says, "Take back Earth!" If the IT is true, then post breath scene you clearly at the end of the game have NOT taken back Earth, but are still at war with the Reapers, and you have no way of stopping them (until you buy this DLC).

The EC while not destroying the IT, filled in enough plot holes to make the literallists who wanted an absolute end and want to take it at face value happy. It dug more plot holes and dropped more "hints" for the IT'ers to keep them coming back for more, like a dog that's been hit too much or ain't been hit enough I can't make up my mind.

Modifié par desert_beagle, 26 août 2012 - 04:18 .

[CoolioThane]

Steelcan wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Eurgh it's annoying my broken bike only has one gear (the lowest) so going up hills is nigh on impossible and the chain is prone to 'clunk' and cause one to take a tumble... D:

Might need a new bike, just a suggestion

Do you have a spare £300 odd?

[Steelcan]

CoolioThane wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Eurgh it's annoying my broken bike only has one gear (the lowest) so going up hills is nigh on impossible and the chain is prone to 'clunk' and cause one to take a tumble... D:

Might need a new bike, just a suggestion

Do you have a spare £300 odd?

Sorry American

[D.Sharrah]

New thread on theme: http://social.biowar...845658#13845658

Check it out.

[Rifneno]

****, we're back to the "it's a marketing scheme" complaint?

[CoolioThane]

Steelcan wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Eurgh it's annoying my broken bike only has one gear (the lowest) so going up hills is nigh on impossible and the chain is prone to 'clunk' and cause one to take a tumble... D:

Might need a new bike, just a suggestion

Do you have a spare £300 odd?

Sorry American

Then I'm still in the same situation lol 

You know a lot of people are going to be pissed if there are no IT hints in leviathan. Less than two days

[CoolioThane]

Hey rif, how've you been?

[Rifneno]

CoolioThane wrote...

Hey rif, how've you been?

Good, been spending my time in multiplayer because I'm a glutton for punishment.  You?

[demersel]

CoolioThane wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Eurgh it's annoying my broken bike only has one gear (the lowest) so going up hills is nigh on impossible and the chain is prone to 'clunk' and cause one to take a tumble... D:

Might need a new bike, just a suggestion

Do you have a spare  odd?

Last week some as3hole dropped my motorcycle that was parked near my porch, smashed a mirror, and all the turn lights. Cracked the plastic hull. No i have to spend about same amount (£300) jn repairs.

Modifié par demersel, 26 août 2012 - 04:36 .

[D.Sharrah]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

 
- the whole "organics vs synthetics" cliche problem introduced at the last 10 min

http://social.biowar...845658#13845658

Check it out you may be surprised about how wrong that "point" is...

[paxxton]

Is it just me or BSN is working like **** today??!!

[I_eat_unicorns]

D.Sharrah wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

 
- the whole "organics vs synthetics" cliche problem introduced at the last 10 min

http://social.biowar...845658#13845658

Check it out you may be surprised about how wrong that "point" is...

To you. But most people agreee that the central theme of mass effect was working together with all races in a peaceful way. The reapers were sought as more than just machines if you remember the conversation with soveriegn. But the last 10 min did put the reapers as just tools to some kid, who justified the whole thing as synthetics vs organics is inevitalbe. 

[D.Sharrah]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

 
- the whole "organics vs synthetics" cliche problem introduced at the last 10 min

http://social.biowar...845658#13845658

Check it out you may be surprised about how wrong that "point" is...

To you. But most people agreee that the central theme of mass effect was working together with all races in a peaceful way. The reapers were sought as more than just machines if you remember the conversation with soveriegn. But the last 10 min did put the reapers as just tools to some kid, who justified the whole thing as synthetics vs organics is inevitalbe. 

Nowhere in that thread does it suggest that Synthetics vs. Organics is the only theme...its not.  That is what is truly great about the Mass Effect universe - there are several themes that woven together with great care.  It is something that the universe has in common with other great works of literature.  Is there only one central theme to Lord of the Rings, the Harry Potter books, etc.?  No.  But to deny that the theme doesn't exist before the last ten minutes of ME 3 is just silly.

[desert_beagle]

Rifneno wrote...

****, we're back to the "it's a marketing scheme" complaint?

I would ask for proof to the contrary that it is not.  

Answer these questions:

If the Indoctrination Theory is true, then is the story of the Mass Effect Trilogy as it stands complete?

If the story of the Mass Effect Trilogy is not complete, then how do you propose that BioWare complete it?

If the story of the Mass Effect Trilogy is complete as it stands, then why does this speculatory forum exist within the campaign discussion forum and not within the fan creation forum?

Why has Chris Priestly stated that the Indoctrination Theory is still a, "...valid interpretation of the endings"?

It's simple.  If you feel the story is complete and can take the ending literally, then fine.  Leave for some other franchise, or just buy our DLC to expand on what was a shallow single player experience in ME3.  If you feel the story is not complete and believe the Indoctrination Theory, then keep buying more DLC to find out.

They even got rid of the message at the end of the original release that stated right in front of your face,  "...Keep adding to Shepard's legend thorugh DLC."  The writing is on the TV as to what this is. 

[CoolioThane]

@rif hähä gotta love masochism! Yeah I'm good thanks, football seasons back so I've been in Brighton quite a bit stoked for returning to Uni in 3 weeks

@demersel That sucks! I hate people who do stuff like that! Not leaving an apology note and personal details is just disgraceful!

@unicorns You've got to be mental to think organics v synthetics was not prominent throughout...

[D.Sharrah]

CoolioThane wrote...

@rif hähä gotta love masochism! Yeah I'm good thanks, football seasons back so I've been in Brighton quite a bit stoked for returning to Uni in 3 weeks

@demersel That sucks! I hate people who do stuff like that! Not leaving an apology note and personal details is just disgraceful!

@unicorns You've got to be mental to think organics v synthetics was not prominent throughout...

This has definetly become a pet peeve...I just can't understand how people can be so blinded with rage over the endings that they can forget such integral parts of the story...you spend almost an entire game fighting a synthetic race for crying out loud!

[I_eat_unicorns]

D.Sharrah wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

 
- the whole "organics vs synthetics" cliche problem introduced at the last 10 min

http://social.biowar...845658#13845658

Check it out you may be surprised about how wrong that "point" is...

To you. But most people agreee that the central theme of mass effect was working together with all races in a peaceful way. The reapers were sought as more than just machines if you remember the conversation with soveriegn. But the last 10 min did put the reapers as just tools to some kid, who justified the whole thing as synthetics vs organics is inevitalbe. 

Nowhere in that thread does it suggest that Synthetics vs. Organics is the only theme...its not.  That is what is truly great about the Mass Effect universe - there are several themes that woven together with great care.  It is something that the universe has in common with other great works of literature.  Is there only one central theme to Lord of the Rings, the Harry Potter books, etc.?  No.  But to deny that the theme doesn't exist before the last ten minutes of ME 3 is just silly.

What I'm saying is that to most people, it didn't feel like a prominent theme. We saw the reapers as more than just machines like I said, and the last 10 min destroys that image with poor logic that organics vs synthetics is inevitable. That was the cliche thing I meant. 

[Steelcan]

D.Sharrah wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

@rif hähä gotta love masochism! Yeah I'm good thanks, football seasons back so I've been in Brighton quite a bit stoked for returning to Uni in 3 weeks

@demersel That sucks! I hate people who do stuff like that! Not leaving an apology note and personal details is just disgraceful!

@unicorns You've got to be mental to think organics v synthetics was not prominent throughout...

This has definetly become a pet peeve...I just can't understand how people can be so blinded with rage over the endings that they can forget such integral parts of the story...you spend almost an entire game fighting a synthetic race for crying out loud!

. And that's why destroy is the only real ending.  IT is just icing

[The Twilight God]

Hrothdane wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

As for your original post, Twilight God, you mentioned that the evidence could go either way on whether the TIM and Anderson scene actually takes place or not. If you were to take the position that it was not real, when do you think the "unrealness" starts and ends and why?

Why would Shepard's subconscious in the Control ending involve the Citadel arms closing and the Control eruption reaching the Charon Mass Relay in the form of an energy wave as opposed to reaching it as a beam and causing severe explosions across the Citadel in the Synthesis and Destroy versions? Furthermore, if it is all a delusion why does the readiness of the allied fleets have any relevance whatsoever on what delusions Shepard perceives in the Crucible docking chamber? Why is there a high EMS necessity for Synthesis. Why does the choice to either preserve of destroy the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2 even matter in this regard with low EMS?

Hackett is narrating. Or EDI is narrating or Shepard is narrating. The Shepard one being iffy.. OK. That could just be an extention of his delusion. In my case, I believe it just a narration from the indoctrinated perspective. Same for EDI. But Hackett and EDI (indoctrinated or otherwise) are distinct people. So I take those narrations at face value. Those individuals stating that they hope or think the future will bring. Give the variations in the endings and the fleet strength being a determinant I see no reason to think it didn't happen.

There are other subtle things in the ending that also hint it's real. The EC actually left more clues

1. The way the Crucible fires. Control and Synthesis continue drawing power from it (beam), but in Destroy that cord is cut before it fires. We know from Refusal that that beam is a Citadel function, not Crucible as the Kid can turn it off.
2. Liara says "the Crucible didn't work" vs "We never got to use the Crucible"
3. Also the fact that if Shepard dallies for too long the Repaers destroy the Crucible.
4. Shepards eyes turning TIM-like on the control prongs and in the beam. If he's being tricked and it's just in his head why would he see it that way. 
5. Hackett stating "he made it" in that one cutscene.

TJ and I gave a partial answer to the EMS thing further up the page.

1. Symbolism, I gather. The beam stays on as long as Starbinger is trying to control Shepard. Cutting the cord breaks free, and he turns it off in refuse because he has broken Shepard and no longer considers him/her worth controlling, as evidenced by him suddenly pulling out the Harbinger voice and dropping the facade.
2. "The Crucible didn't work" is a little ambiguous. She could mean either it physically did not operate, or that it failed to solve the Reaper problem and that it shouldn't be tried again.
3. If Shepard waits too long, he/she dies in real life.
4. We have precedents of Benezia and others that knew they were indoctrinated. The eyes turning like TIM's could be a representation of that. Alternatively, it could be a metaphor for Shepard following TIM's wishes. Alternatively again, we as players occasionally see events that Shepard could not have seen him/herself. Shepard can't see his/her own eyes for obvious reasons, so it could be intended as a hint to the player that something is up.
5. Why does Hackett say "He/she made it" instead of "They made it" since Anderson got up as well or even just "Someone made it?" How does he know anyone made it after Coats's last report said nobody made it, and how does he know it is Shepard?

I would also like to point out that the dreams from throughout the game show that BioWare associates dreams with symbolism, so we wouldn't just be pulling a "it's symbolism!" card out of our ass.

You are entitled to believe what you will. However, I have seen no evidence that it is a dream to even begin trying to come up with explainations for what anything means within the context of a dream. Of course I see everything in the chamber has happening and these little pieces fit into the puzzle. It makes since to have occurred in reality. To assume it's a dream requires me to to skip a step and leap over to the next conclusion. But I have no reason to doubt the reality of the situation.

As to #5, this is something I used myself in favor of Anderson and TIM possibly being a hallucination. However, a hallucination is not a dream. I simply have seen no compelling evidence that Shepard is laying on the ground in front of the Conduit. Why does Shepard need to dream about Hackett stating that he made it? I think this was added into the EC specifically to debunk Dream Theory. 

[CoolioThane]

Well what about coats for one twilight?

[Lokanaiya]

TTG, what about the the white screen translations? Like when Harbinger knocks Shepard out with his laser, when you take the beam to the Citadel, when the platform lifts you up to the decision chamber, and when the tube is exploding after you pick Destroy. As the Geth consensus mission and the dreams prove, these are exscusively used for transitions *within* and *out of* dreams. Why would they occur in reality then?

Also, you never answered my post last night.