80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Lokanaiya]

And TTG, if Bioware wanted to disprove the dream theory, why have they (a) not just come out and said it? ( Defended the theory from people who wanted to move this thread to the Fan Creations board? and © Added more hints in the EC that it isn't real?

[TJBartlemus]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Now that I got all of your attention...I want to show something odd.

Have you noticed that in the new scenes of the EC regarding how Hackett knew Shep was on the Citadel the ships in relation to the Crucible change positions. Look from 7:22 to 7: 40 and you will see what I mean. In the first the Alliance ships are backwards to the front of the Crucible and then 10 secs later they have pulled a full 180. 

They are in the same position... They are facing forward and you see the the Crucible from the front. Then they are still facing forward as toy see the Crucible from behind. In both times they are moving in the same direction and facing the face direction as the crucible.

Looks like TJ was right to me....

I do believe I am right. In the first one it shows the Alliance ships pointed to the back end of the Crucible travelling towards the Citadel. Then a couple scenes later it shows all the Alliance ships on both sides pointed to the front of the Crucible travelling to the Citadel. I am 100% certain they pulled a 180. 

Regarding the destroy choice on how Shepard survives there are somethings that are 100% fact that proves he couldn't survive.

1- He is in space between the surface of the Citadel (which has no atmosphere as shown in ME1 where Shep had to have a full space suit.) and the Crucible. The BioWare dev team claims that that portion is surrounded by a "forcefield" that has atmosphere in it so Shep is alive. (which without would be 100% in space) Seeing as the Destroy beam destroys all synthetic tech. I can be certain this forcefeild (we have no idea where it came from) wouldn't be functional after being affected and Shepard would be exposed to space which would kill him. As he is on the surface of the Citadel there would be nothing to seal off as a fail safe. 

[BansheeOwnage]

What's happening?

[jgibson14352]

where did we hear there was a force field?

Modifié par jgibson14352, 26 août 2012 - 05:55 .

[BansheeOwnage]

demersel wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Hey guys, I was playing through the Rio map on MP last night and noticed something odd: that T78 (or whatever one means infrasound) sign is present in a couple of places on the extraction zone side with an arrow pointing down. Just something to speculate on.

More evidence to the idea that there is going to be a singleplayer mission set in RIO, and it will involve a secret underground facility, that the Rio level is enterance for. 

Ooo I have some more evidence for that.  Seriously. It's awesome!

[CoolioThane]

More evidence banshee?!?

[Hrothdane]

The Twilight God wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

As for your original post, Twilight God, you mentioned that the evidence could go either way on whether the TIM and Anderson scene actually takes place or not. If you were to take the position that it was not real, when do you think the "unrealness" starts and ends and why?

Why would Shepard's subconscious in the Control ending involve the Citadel arms closing and the Control eruption reaching the Charon Mass Relay in the form of an energy wave as opposed to reaching it as a beam and causing severe explosions across the Citadel in the Synthesis and Destroy versions? Furthermore, if it is all a delusion why does the readiness of the allied fleets have any relevance whatsoever on what delusions Shepard perceives in the Crucible docking chamber? Why is there a high EMS necessity for Synthesis. Why does the choice to either preserve of destroy the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2 even matter in this regard with low EMS?

Hackett is narrating. Or EDI is narrating or Shepard is narrating. The Shepard one being iffy.. OK. That could just be an extention of his delusion. In my case, I believe it just a narration from the indoctrinated perspective. Same for EDI. But Hackett and EDI (indoctrinated or otherwise) are distinct people. So I take those narrations at face value. Those individuals stating that they hope or think the future will bring. Give the variations in the endings and the fleet strength being a determinant I see no reason to think it didn't happen.

There are other subtle things in the ending that also hint it's real. The EC actually left more clues

1. The way the Crucible fires. Control and Synthesis continue drawing power from it (beam), but in Destroy that cord is cut before it fires. We know from Refusal that that beam is a Citadel function, not Crucible as the Kid can turn it off.
2. Liara says "the Crucible didn't work" vs "We never got to use the Crucible"
3. Also the fact that if Shepard dallies for too long the Repaers destroy the Crucible.
4. Shepards eyes turning TIM-like on the control prongs and in the beam. If he's being tricked and it's just in his head why would he see it that way. 
5. Hackett stating "he made it" in that one cutscene.

TJ and I gave a partial answer to the EMS thing further up the page.

1. Symbolism, I gather. The beam stays on as long as Starbinger is trying to control Shepard. Cutting the cord breaks free, and he turns it off in refuse because he has broken Shepard and no longer considers him/her worth controlling, as evidenced by him suddenly pulling out the Harbinger voice and dropping the facade.
2. "The Crucible didn't work" is a little ambiguous. She could mean either it physically did not operate, or that it failed to solve the Reaper problem and that it shouldn't be tried again.
3. If Shepard waits too long, he/she dies in real life.
4. We have precedents of Benezia and others that knew they were indoctrinated. The eyes turning like TIM's could be a representation of that. Alternatively, it could be a metaphor for Shepard following TIM's wishes. Alternatively again, we as players occasionally see events that Shepard could not have seen him/herself. Shepard can't see his/her own eyes for obvious reasons, so it could be intended as a hint to the player that something is up.
5. Why does Hackett say "He/she made it" instead of "They made it" since Anderson got up as well or even just "Someone made it?" How does he know anyone made it after Coats's last report said nobody made it, and how does he know it is Shepard?

I would also like to point out that the dreams from throughout the game show that BioWare associates dreams with symbolism, so we wouldn't just be pulling a "it's symbolism!" card out of our ass.

You are entitled to believe what you will. However, I have seen no evidence that it is a dream to even begin trying to come up with explainations for what anything means within the context of a dream. Of course I see everything in the chamber has happening and these little pieces fit into the puzzle. It makes since to have occurred in reality. To assume it's a dream requires me to to skip a step and leap over to the next conclusion. But I have no reason to doubt the reality of the situation.

As to #5, this is something I used myself in favor of Anderson and TIM possibly being a hallucination. However, a hallucination is not a dream. I simply have seen no compelling evidence that Shepard is laying on the ground in front of the Conduit. Why does Shepard need to dream about Hackett stating that he made it? I think this was added into the EC specifically to debunk Dream Theory. 

We use the words hallucination and dream rather interchangably here because we don't have the evidence to make such a find distinction, and the meanings are close enough.

I'll ask again: if that scene with Anderson and TIM is an hallucination, when does the hallucination begin and when does it end?

You also have yet to respond to my comment about the shadows in that scene.

Also, the 1M1 components in the pathway to the TIM and Anderson chamber as well as on the top of Citadel are human-made (don't worry, you don't need a flycam to see them). Why would there be obvious human-constructed components in the Citadel's design and furthermore in an area that no one even knows about or travels to? Why did the designers specifically choose to reuse an asset that is clearly human-made and even labeled to draw attention to it?

Modifié par Hrothdane, 26 août 2012 - 06:16 .

[BansheeOwnage]

CoolioThane wrote...

More evidence banshee?!?

Yes, it was actually Blur who discovered it. I won't bother reposting my full analysis this time; you know it already.
So to add to it, the sun is rising in Rio. Now think about the game from a literary perspective. What's a very common element used by writers?

The night is darkest just before the dawn.

Where is it darkest? London.

Where is the dawn? Rio.

And that makes you think: Holy crap, it is super dark and depressing in London! What a weird way to end a story. Right now ME3 is just darkness; no dawn. Also chronologically, the sun would rise after night time, but that's secondary. It's symbolic. Some stuff to think about.

Edit: Hey Hrothdane!

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 26 août 2012 - 06:12 .

[Lokanaiya]

Quick addendum to my previous Rio comment: the same T78 sign can be seen on the same side opposite of the extraction zone. There is also, for whatever reason, a room with slanted glass walls above the middle, where our characters get dropped off. Probably where people oversee the movement of those crates, but still worth noting.

[BansheeOwnage]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Quick addendum to my previous Rio comment: the same T78 sign can be seen on the same side opposite of the extraction zone. There is also, for whatever reason, a room with slanted glass walls above the middle, where our characters get dropped off. Probably where people oversee the movement of those crates, but still worth noting.

Have you seen my Rio analysis? It mentions the control room.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 26 août 2012 - 06:17 .

[paxxton]

Off-topic: Are you able to connect to Otigin atm?

[Lokanaiya]

I saw one of the previous ones a while back, before I talked about the layout of Rio, but I haven't seen it recently. Where can I find it?

[The Twilight God]

demersel wrote...

If everything is happening -

1-  how does shepard survive harbingers beam?
2 - why doesn't harbinger shoots the normandy down?
3 - how can Coats be in all the slideshows if he's dead on the citadel? (everything is happening, right )
4 - How come Anderson is ahead of Shepard, while narrating the same thing shepard see, at the moment that he sees them, and then magically appears at the console?
5 - How come TIM is on the citadel, and he's the only person alive there?
6 - What killed all those men in the hallway? (that one keeper?)
7 - How does Shepards radio still work?
8 - Why is the ammo unlimited? As appoused to (you lose cause you've ran out of ammo?)
9 - Why is Shepard wounded in the same spot Anderson was shot, and the camera makes a point of showing us this?
10 - How does Hackett contact shepard?
11 - Why doesn't shepard call for back up after the citadel is opened?
12 - Why doesn't hackett send back up as soon as it is opened? 
13 - How came Shepard is able to stand up when catalyst wakes him up?
14 - How can the catalyst show shepard excact footage of what will happen after the choice, if asked for more details?
15 - How's Synthesis even possible, how does it work? 
16 - How come in the slide show, we see the beam from earth connected to the citadel (at the bottom, exactly where the crucible should have gone before? if the beam is visible how come we don't see it before crucible docs?) And it goes to the presidium ring - how could it do so while the citadel was closed? 
17 - Why is on of the two soldiers, that is present in every cinematic is the same soldier, that lies dead by the stone, when marauder shields appear? 
18 - How come they didn't find shepard while rebuilding the citadel in high EMS destroy? 
19 - How come Shepard takes a breath only after everything that was in the slide show was shown (and those events span for decades)? 

1. it never hits him. It actually goes to the left of Shepard.
2. That occurs before the beam so don't see how that factors in. My personal guess is to not enrage him against the Reapers. They seem to want him on their side for some reason.
3. Coates is never shown on the Citadel. A flycam cannot be used to prove something as the player is never capable of seeing it. It's like saying the Crucible isn;t there because Bioware didn;t bother to render the entire device or the entire tower for that matter.
4. Anderson and TIM could be hallucination (as I've mentioned before), but that still doesn't make it a dream.
5. See above.
6. The same thing that killed all those bodies pilled around the Conduit: The Reapers. Did you forget what the Conduit was there for?
7. It's in his suit interior of suit and was still operational? It's Anderson's radio?
8. Yes, if it ran out of ammo Shepard would be boned.
9. See #4
10. see #7
11. There is no backup. Everyone else is presumably dead or retreated.
12. He does. He sends the Crucible in the middle of a space battle. As far as I can ascertain they expected it to work automatically. They didn't know the Reapers had a contingency in place to keep it from firing.
13. Why wouldn;t he be able to?
14. He doesn't. That is for the players benefit. There is nothing in-game to definitively indicate that Shepardactaully sees any of that.
15. How does anything work? How does Eezo work? It's science fiction.
16. The EC slides are meaningless as they don't occur in reality. They are just representations of the narrator's hopes for the future. Check out the scene after walking out of TIM's office, before the conduit run when the Crucible is moving in and once you go through the conduit. In all scenes the beam is not visible in space. It is only visible from within atmosphere. And all but one of those scenes are pre-harbinger beam.
17. First, that soldier isn't necessarily dead. Second, how do you know it's the same person?
18. The Citadel is never rebuilt in any ending. The slides are the narrators hopes for the future. See #16.
19. See #16.

[BansheeOwnage]

paxxton wrote...

Off-topic: Are you able to connect to Otigin atm?

Yes.

[Steelcan]

CoolioThane wrote...

Well what about coats for one twilight?

. Why is everyone convinced Coates is indoctrinated?

[The Twilight God]

demersel wrote...

Also ,how come in control it takes control only of reapers, and not all synthetic life, but in destroy it destroys all synthetic life, cause it can't differentiate?

The Crucible performs destroy.

The Citadel performs Synthesis and Control (and uses the Crucible as a power source).

[BansheeOwnage]

Lokanaiya wrote...

I saw one of the previous ones a while back, before I talked about the layout of Rio, but I haven't seen it recently. Where can I find it?

Well I don't actually have it anywhere on my profile (maybe I should) but I can repost it here if you want.

[BansheeOwnage]

The Twilight God wrote...

Seriously dude can you please have a PM war with demersel or something? You walls of text across pages arguing with each other is getting pretty annoying...

[BansheeOwnage]

Steelcan wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Well what about coats for one twilight?

. Why is everyone convinced Coates is indoctrinated?

There's a decent amount of evidence he is. Nothing concrete though. My vote: He's a Cerberus plant put there to ensure Shepard does what the Illusive Man wants. To get to the citadel and make sure the reapers are controlled.

Edit: Wall of text incoming! PREPARE YOURSELVES FOR ITS ARRIVAL. 
ಠಠಠ_ಠಠಠ

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 26 août 2012 - 06:32 .

[The Twilight God]

byne wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Also Twilight God...I have to disagree on the interpretation of Control. Control turns Shepard into an AI. (Am I wrong?) Sure what we are is shaped by our memories. This is shown in game in the Legion VI. This doesn't necessarily mean that an AI that has Shepard's memories is Shepard. Let's take an example. Dr. Halsey and Cortana. Cortana is an AI that has been copied from Dr. Halsey, but both have totally different personalities and both make different decisions.

There is also another thing. The Shepard that we control is composed of 2 things. Character Shep and Player Shep. Player Shep is essensially us who play the game. Character Shep is Shepard in the game that experiances everything and what he/she is reflects Player Sheps decisions. Well in Control we remove the Player Shep aspect of Shepard and Character Shep takes reign. It can make decisions on it's own without us and probably wouldn't choose what we Player Shep would of chosen.

Pretty much to sum it up my point is that after choosing control, "Shepard" isn't the Shepard we know anymore.

That's your own personal specualtion. If we are to assume Control is true and Shepard is actually in control then the Catalyst is telling the truth. He says, "your thoughts, and even your memories, will continue." What is Shepard if not his thoughts and memories? Again, the nature of consciousness is speculatory.

You're welcome to headcanon control however you like. Just like others headcanon their Shepard making a cylon body and reuniting with the crew.

Catalyst Shepard doesnt seem to see herself as being the same person as Shepard, though.

I don't see mayself as the person I was 25 years ago either. That person is gone and from that person's demise, I exist. Hitler used to be a little kid at one point. That little kid isn't the same person who started WW2. 
 
It's a matter of personal interpretation. The player can read it however they choose. So Shepard is very much alive in Control for some and not for others.

[BansheeOwnage]

The Twilight God wrote...

Can you stop arguing with people who aren't here? At least cut the text walls.

[Hrothdane]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Can you stop arguing with people who aren't here? At least cut the text walls.

He still hasn't answered my questions, so don't scare him off already!

[BansheeOwnage]

Hrothdane wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Can you stop arguing with people who aren't here? At least cut the text walls.

He still hasn't answered my questions, so don't scare him off already!

What questions?

[paxxton]

What about ea.com?

[Hrothdane]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Can you stop arguing with people who aren't here? At least cut the text walls.

He still hasn't answered my questions, so don't scare him off already!

What questions?

Look further up this page. It won't let me link the post for some reason : /

Modifié par Hrothdane, 26 août 2012 - 06:38 .