80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Lokanaiya]

Banshee, could you PM it to me or just point me to the last page you posted it on, if you remember? We probably don't need *another* wall of text here.

And TTG, were you planning on answering my posts at all? Also, the Starchild outright states that the Crucible is one gigantic battery. Why would he lie about that?

[The Twilight God]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

demersel wrote...

How did you come up with that conclusion?  Not to mention that there are countless cases in all three games, when you shoot people with a pistol in a cut scene - and they die. (sometimes they are even dressed in full armor, like the eclipse asari merc in ME2 thane recruitment mission)

That's not weird at all. Shepard's whole squad opened fire on her.

Let us not bring up Ashley and Wrex... that pisses me off to this day. It should have taken the whole salarian force to gun Wrex down. A pistol to the back... psst!!

[BansheeOwnage]

Edit: F*** missed the request to not post it.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 26 août 2012 - 06:42 .

[The Twilight God]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Now that I got all of your attention...I want to show something odd.

Have you noticed that in the new scenes of the EC regarding how Hackett knew Shep was on the Citadel the ships in relation to the Crucible change positions. Look from 7:22 to 7: 40 and you will see what I mean. In the first the Alliance ships are backwards to the front of the Crucible and then 10 secs later they have pulled a full 180. 

They are in the same position... They are facing forward and you see the the Crucible from the front. Then they are still facing forward as toy see the Crucible from behind. In both times they are moving in the same direction and facing the face direction as the crucible.

Looks like TJ was right to me....

Look at the Crucible when it docks. it as a protrusion with spinning crap on both ends that then falls off along with the outer shell. I think you're mistaking the front for the back.

[demersel]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Can you stop arguing with people who aren't here? At least cut the text walls.

Oh, i am here. )))

[BansheeOwnage]

The Twilight God wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Now that I got all of your attention...I want to show something odd.

Have you noticed that in the new scenes of the EC regarding how Hackett knew Shep was on the Citadel the ships in relation to the Crucible change positions. Look from 7:22 to 7: 40 and you will see what I mean. In the first the Alliance ships are backwards to the front of the Crucible and then 10 secs later they have pulled a full 180. 

They are in the same position... They are facing forward and you see the the Crucible from the front. Then they are still facing forward as toy see the Crucible from behind. In both times they are moving in the same direction and facing the face direction as the crucible.

Looks like TJ was right to me....

Look at the Crucible when it docks. it as a protrusion with spinning crap on both ends that then falls off along with the outer shell. I think you're mistaking the front for the back.

Well there is only one huge ball on the crucible.

In the first clip it's clearly going "backwards". By that I mean the ball is at the back and the Alliance ships are facing the opposite direction as the above picture. In the second clip, the ball is at the front and the Alliance ships are facing the same way as the above picture. What do you see?

[Lokanaiya]

Very interesting. Thanks Banshee!

Edit: Just arrived at home, so no more posting on my phone. Looks like I refreshed at just the right time, before you editted it.

Modifié par Lokanaiya, 26 août 2012 - 06:51 .

[The Twilight God]

Hrothdane wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
2. Liara says "the Crucible didn't work" vs "We never got to use the Crucible"

By the way... What happens if your EMS is LOW and you have LIARA with you at the beam run and she gets desintegrated, and then you choose refuse? 

How can she say the crucible didn't work or that they never got to use it is SHE's DEAD BEFORE that happens and she can record that messege???

Actually, Refuse requires mid range EMS and up. You can't refuse on low EMS. 

Still trying to figure out if they die in mid or just low. 

You can still refuse on low EMS by shooting the kid.

I'm still not finding anything about mid EMS either. Apparently, nobody thought it was worth posting a video of : /

I don't count shooting the kid as anything more than FU (as well as the whole refuse ending) because people on the forums were stating that they wanted to shoot him. It's not even a choice. That right their shows that Bioware is petty and unable to cope with legitimate critism.

[BansheeOwnage]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Very interesting. Thanks Banshee!

Edit: Just arrived at home, so no more posting on my phone. Looks like I refreshed at just the right time, before you editted it.

No problem. Thanks for the interest.

[BansheeOwnage]

Restrider wrote...

My subjective method to explain the ending:

Okham's Razor
"If a thing can be done adequately by means of one, it is superfluous to do it by means of several; for we observe that nature does not employ two instruments [if] one suffices."

Hanlon's Razor
“Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice.”

These are concepts that should be used for empirical studies (Okham) or when trying to explain events in society (Hanlon) such as conspiracy theories.

If we applied these principles, we can explain everything regarding the end with "bad writing" and/or "coincidence". These principles are often used as counter argument, when discussing the various forms of IT. But one thing has to be considered!

This is a fictional (artificial) story! This means that someone sat down and thought about the story and how everything in the end leads to - well - the ending. Of course, these persons can do stupid things. But compared with Bioware's merits regarding storytelling (eg ME 1, ME 2...) the end of the trilogy is an (maybe even unrealistic) anomaly, if taken at face value.

The other possibility is that they intended something else, let it be IT or whatever (excluding literal interpretation). All anomalies in the period after Harbinger's beam can be explained by one thing, being "bad writing", coincidence or IT.

For me, I am pretty sure many things hinting to IT may be over-interpreted and just coincidence,
but the sheer amount of hints (and some of them are just very fitting) indicates for me that IT is a plausible (even the most plausible) ending. Or deliberately writing a stupid ending (and that is unrealistic).

Another point is how Bioware reacted to the public outcry.
If I recall correct they stated that many did not understand the ending. The implication is that the ending (as it was pre-EC) had to be more complex than a simple literal ending (because a literal ending needs no further explanation and thus it is hard to NOT understand it).
Now they added the EC that gives the literal interpretation more room and closes plot holes, but still leaves the IT intact (seriously, let me say this: "Ah, the "IT-has-been-debunked-theme"! We have dismissed that claim.")
Out of the gut, I would say Bioware has been tending more to IT than to a literal interpretation (see their: "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!!" at the beginning), but released the EC to please the literalists leaving the community divided and confused.

Who knows what will happen, but I think this discussion is far away from being over and that we will have more information in DLC or maybe ME 4.

Glad to see there are a few more people who actually saw through the ending! Great job people!

I'll be back later people! Happy speculating!

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...

1. it never hits him. It actually goes to the left of Shepard.    Why doesn't it? Harbinger seemed having no trouble with with his aim just seconds ago.
2. That occurs before the beam so don't see how that factors in. My personal guess is to not enrage him against the Reapers. They seem to want him on their side for some reason.  Really? that is your answer? They don't shoot normandy down because they don't want to anger shepard? Really?
3. Coates is never shown on the Citadel. A flycam cannot be used to prove something as the player is never capable of seeing it. It's like saying the Crucible isn;t there because Bioware didn;t bother to render the entire device or the entire tower for that matter.   You can see his a distinct part of his head in came. And you can't deny that there are allience troops there - how come? no one besides shepard made it to the beam. And if they did - what killed them?
4. Anderson and TIM could be hallucination (as I've mentioned before), but that still doesn't make it a dream. 
5. See above.   And if it's really reaper-controlled citadel, why exactly there are no reaper troops there doing their dark deeds? Why is it completely empty, except for anderson and TIM who you admit are hallucitations?
6. The same thing that killed all those bodies pilled around the Conduit: The Reapers. Did you forget what the Conduit was there for?   for the tenth time IT'S NOT THE CONDUIT. And again. okey, let's not forget what its for - why is there no reaper forces on the recieving end?
7. It's in his suit interior of suit and was still operational? It's Anderson's radio?   Now, who's making assumptions here?  Shepards armor is toast. Nothing works there. That's just weak. 
8. Yes, if it ran out of ammo Shepard would be boned.  And there could be a gameover screen, like "The Crucible was Destroyed" one. But there isn't. Again why is the ammo unlimited?
9. See #4  Ok, so anderson and tim are hallucination, while shepard is really on the citadel. Why is he wounded in the same spot he shot the hallucination of anderson? Or is he hallucinating that he is wounded? Or did he turned the gun and shot himself in the gut for real? The methaphor only works if everything is a dream, not when it is real enviroment.
10. see #7  - that doesn't explain anything. Why doesn't hackett contact shepard sooner? 
11. There is no backup. Everyone else is presumably dead or retreated.  The citadel is in space. There  is a huge battle in space. Battle means there are still some forces. Why doesn't shepard try to contact anyone from within the citadel, to let them know he made it there? And that they perhaps should fight their way to it in space - so as soon as he opens it they can board it? 
12. He does. He sends the Crucible in the middle of a space battle. As far as I can ascertain they expected it to work automatically. They didn't know the Reapers had a contingency in place to keep it from firing.   Why is crucible unescorted? Why doesn't Hackett send some boarding party along with the crucible? - the citadel is open now.
13. Why wouldn;t he be able to? Because he's nearly dead from his wounds, and already lost his conciosness while trying to stand up seconds ago. 
14. He doesn't. That is for the players benefit. There is nothing in-game to definitively indicate that Shepardactaully sees any of that.  No he does. There is the same transition light, and shepard reacts to images. 
15. How does anything work? How does Eezo work? It's science fiction. Space magic argument? Huh... Ok. More "credability" to your theory.  
16. The EC slides are meaningless as they don't occur in reality. They are just representations of the narrator's hopes for the future. Check out the scene after walking out of TIM's office, before the conduit run when the Crucible is moving in and once you go through the conduit. In all scenes the beam is not visible in space. It is only visible from within atmosphere. And all but one of those scenes are pre-harbinger beam.  That is exactly my point - for it being real it is too inconsistent. 
17. First, that soldier isn't necessarily dead. Second, how do you know it's the same person?   Same face?
18. The Citadel is never rebuilt in any ending. The slides are the narrators hopes for the future. See #16.
19. See #16.

You're really grasping at straws, and force everything to fit your version. ))

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
2. Liara says "the Crucible didn't work" vs "We never got to use the Crucible"

By the way... What happens if your EMS is LOW and you have LIARA with you at the beam run and she gets desintegrated, and then you choose refuse? 

How can she say the crucible didn't work or that they never got to use it is SHE's DEAD BEFORE that happens and she can record that messege???

Actually, Refuse requires mid range EMS and up. You can't refuse on low EMS. 

Still trying to figure out if they die in mid or just low. 

You can still refuse on low EMS by shooting the kid.

I'm still not finding anything about mid EMS either. Apparently, nobody thought it was worth posting a video of : /

I don't count shooting the kid as anything more than FU (as well as the whole refuse ending) because people on the forums were stating that they wanted to shoot him. It's not even a choice. That right their shows that Bioware is petty and unable to cope with legitimate critism.

See - that's called subjectivite and assumption. Fact is that shooting the kid has the same effect as making a refuse speech. 

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

Also ,how come in control it takes control only of reapers, and not all synthetic life, but in destroy it destroys all synthetic life, cause it can't differentiate?

The Crucible performs destroy.

The Citadel performs Synthesis and Control (and uses the Crucible as a power source).

Ok... So that means that crucibles primary function is destroy, Right?   Then how come you activate the device's primary function by smashing some equipment? 

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...
Let us not bring up Ashley and Wrex... that pisses me off to this day. It should have taken the whole salarian force to gun Wrex down. A pistol to the back... psst!!

Oh, so now we're excluding evidence on a basis that you don't like it?  Nice! 

[Steelcan]

demersel wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
Let us not bring up Ashley and Wrex... that pisses me off to this day. It should have taken the whole salarian force to gun Wrex down. A pistol to the back... psst!!

Oh, so now we're excluding evidence on a basis that you don't like it?  Nice! 

. Do not ake words out of context, you are not a politician

[Steelcan]

demersel wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

Also ,how come in control it takes control only of reapers, and not all synthetic life, but in destroy it destroys all synthetic life, cause it can't differentiate?

The Crucible performs destroy.

The Citadel performs Synthesis and Control (and uses the Crucible as a power source).

Ok... So that means that crucibles primary function is destroy, Right?   Then how come you activate the device's primary function by smashing some equipment? 

you destroy a part of the citadel, not the Crucible

[demersel]

Anyway, Twillight God, I'm not answering to you any more, until you answer this. 

To Twilight God  Demersel wrote...


First of all - the beam isn't a conduit. The conduit in ME1 had mini mass relay, which you had to drive into. A beam is just a beam of light. No one knows what it does. For some reason they assume that it has something to do with the citadel, cause it appeared after the citadel arrive on orbit. They also know that reapers guard it. And that they drive captured people into the beam and no-one seem comes out. And that's it. 

For your theory to work you first have to prove to me that the beam does, what you say it does. 

2 - 
So you admit that at least the slide shows are in fact not what actually happens, but rather like a vision of the future. a fantasy, an assumption on what could happen.  That's good. I'm glad we sorted this out. But if those are unreal, how the rest is? 

We agree on the point that the catalyst whants to trick you. Ok.  So he says - " you can do A, B, and C."   you can ask him, " if I do a C, what will happen?" the catalyst shows you parts of the wision - "it will go like this" "OK, i like it. I pick C"   then you get a vision that literaly tells you "you picked C? ok it goes like this." using exactly the same pictures that the catalyst just showed you. 

The catalyst tries to trick you. Everything he does is aimed at that. He can even make you see visions to do so (anderson and illusuve man choosing their options, parts of the vision of the future).   after you make a choice - you see a vision of the future.  Now prove to me that it isn't the catalyst still tricking you. And please don't use "but the catalyst is dead at this point!" argument - because it is anly his word you have for this fact, and we already agreed on that he's trying to trick you. 

Even we we assume that everything up to the point of choice is real, how can we say that everything that is comig after is, given the fact that the catalyst means to trick you? 


No. The catalyst chamber. So let's assume it is real. 

1 - everything is happening in reality.
2 - the crucible is real, and it is ready to fire.
3 - shepard is really there.
4 - Catalyst is there to trick shepard.
5 - the catalyst is actaully a reaper. (or on the side of the reapers.)
6 - Shepard at this point has no clue to what is crucible,  how does crucible work, and what does it actually do. 

all these are given in "everything is really happenning" scenario. 

Now. Why would the catalyst, that is trying to trick shepard, who doesn't have any idea how the thing works, why would he tell him, "If you shoot this tube you'll kill all reapers, including me.", especially if it's true???

Great plan. You could just come up to almost dead shepard and say - you've got to jump into the beam. That's what the crucible is for. It is the only option. You thought it is for destroying reapers? Na-ha. It does stop the reaper threat, but by fusing all organic life with synthetics. Oh you don't believe me? Excuse me, do you have any kind of sceince degree? Did you actually work on building the thing? Did ever even glanced at the schematics? I thought so. Jump into the beam. What's that? The illusive man? He glanced at the schematics once? And he was sure that it allows a person to take control of all the reapers? Didn't you just shoot him in the head? Well, if you really want to, you can try crabbing those to sparckling electrodes. 

And that's it. If the decision chamber is literal, and not methaphoric, not taking place iscide Shepard's mind, AND if we know the catalyst is trying to trick shepard into something, and is in fact a reaper - there is no way and no reason for him to even give you a destroy option. It would be extremly stupid and crazy of him to do so. 

The only way for the decision chamber to be real and the effects of the crucible to be real is if the catalyst is really some neutral, impartial, benign god-like entitty, or a VI user manual program. Which we know he's not. 

Bam! Proven! Decision chamber is a dream. 

You really didn't thought your IT-con nonsense through, did you? 

 

[jgibson14352]

heres an idea, stop spamming the thread with personal sh*t and switch to PMs if you want to b*tch at each other. this is just between you two. NOBODY else cares

[Hrothdane]

demersel wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

Also ,how come in control it takes control only of reapers, and not all synthetic life, but in destroy it destroys all synthetic life, cause it can't differentiate?

The Crucible performs destroy.

The Citadel performs Synthesis and Control (and uses the Crucible as a power source).

Ok... So that means that crucibles primary function is destroy, Right?   Then how come you activate the device's primary function by smashing some equipment? 

According to Twilight God's theory, the equipment that is destroyed is a "Crucible Suppression Device" that prevents the Crucible from working. The tube--like the control console--does certainly appear to be part of the Citadel and not the Crucible; we pretty much all agree on that last point.

[Hrothdane]

jgibson14352 wrote...

heres an idea, stop spamming the thread with personal sh*t and switch to PMs if you want to b*tch at each other. this is just between you two. NOBODY else cares

I do.

They are having an on-topic discussion, so why shouldn't they have it in the thread?

We have to argue the theory when legitimate opportunities present themselves or else we will continue to get painted as crazy cultists, conspiracy theorists, and denialists. Twilight God came here to discuss the differences between our interpretations and has been trying to maintain two or three conversations at once, and while demersel can be stand-offish and somewhat rude at times, he has given thoughtful responses. I don't see how that is "****ing."

[TJBartlemus]

jgibson14352 wrote...

where did we hear there was a force field?

Sorry left for a bit to catch up on the rest of the posts. People were pointing out the impossibility of Shepard breathing on the surface of the Citadel cause it is obviously open to space. So the devs came up with an explaination that there is "a force field" around the part connecting to the Citadel from the Crucible so Shep can be breathing and not die. 

[jgibson14352]

 theyre covering the same stuff multiple times and posting walls that nobody reads or responds to, and im not the only one.
theyre only going after each other. i consider that b*tching
so far, as far as i can remember, youre the only one whos tried to take part, and i cant remember either of them responding to you. though i could be wrong, i started skipping their posts a while back


@tj  yeah i heard that, but where was it specifically stated?

Modifié par jgibson14352, 26 août 2012 - 07:47 .

[TJBartlemus]

Steelcan wrote...

demersel wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

Also ,how come in control it takes control only of reapers, and not all synthetic life, but in destroy it destroys all synthetic life, cause it can't differentiate?

The Crucible performs destroy.

The Citadel performs Synthesis and Control (and uses the Crucible as a power source).

Ok... So that means that crucibles primary function is destroy, Right?   Then how come you activate the device's primary function by smashing some equipment? 

you destroy a part of the citadel, not the Crucible

Yes. The device is the combination of the Catalyst (Citadel) and the Crucible. So in destroying a part of the Citadel you are damaging a part of the device. 

[TJBartlemus]

jgibson14352 wrote...

heres an idea, stop spamming the thread with personal sh*t and switch to PMs if you want to b*tch at each other. this is just between you two. NOBODY else cares

I care. We seldom have a good debate using logic here on the thread. :happy:

[Hrothdane]

jgibson14352 wrote...

 theyre covering the same stuff multiple times and posting walls that nobody reads or responds to, and im not the only one.
theyre only going after each other. i consider that b*tching
so far, as far as i can remember, youre the only one whos tried to take part, and i cant remember either of them responding to you. though i could be wrong, i started skipping their posts a while back

TJ and I have commented on the discussion, and Twilight has responded to us (though not on every post).

Considering how much he's writing, I can see how keeping up three conversations at once is a chore.