80611 réponses à ce sujet

[demersel]

Hrothdane wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

 theyre covering the same stuff multiple times and posting walls that nobody reads or responds to, and im not the only one.
theyre only going after each other. i consider that b*tching
so far, as far as i can remember, youre the only one whos tried to take part, and i cant remember either of them responding to you. though i could be wrong, i started skipping their posts a while back

TJ and I have commented on the discussion, and Twilight has responded to us (though not on every post).

Considering how much he's writing, I can see how keeping up three conversations at once is a chore.

And I haven't yet had anything by either TJ or Hrothdane directed to me to respond to. Besides we're on the same side of the argument, as far as i can tell. Right? 

[Hrothdane]

demersel wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

 theyre covering the same stuff multiple times and posting walls that nobody reads or responds to, and im not the only one.
theyre only going after each other. i consider that b*tching
so far, as far as i can remember, youre the only one whos tried to take part, and i cant remember either of them responding to you. though i could be wrong, i started skipping their posts a while back

TJ and I have commented on the discussion, and Twilight has responded to us (though not on every post).

Considering how much he's writing, I can see how keeping up three conversations at once is a chore.

And I haven't yet had anything by either TJ or Hrothdane directed to me to respond to. Besides we're on the same side of the argument, as far as i can tell. Right? 

Exactly . Why would I be arguing with demersel?

[demersel]

Hrothdane wrote...

Exactly . Why would I be arguing with demersel?

*High-five*+*bro-fist* 

[Putok]

Restrider wrote...

First things first:
I've been lurking the forums a few days now. But now I feel entitled to tell my story.
I recently played ME 3 first time, with EC DLC. I heard about IT nothing besides the title, since I did not want to spoil my gaming experience with knowledge about the ends.
So, I played the game without having any kind of bias or whatsoever. I only knew that the ending is bad.

My feelings and associations with the end:
The whole period after Harbinger's beam was bizarre to say the least. I wondered why I did not have my fancy hardsuit anymore.
The architecture of the Citadel (Meathouse hallway, Shadowbroker engine, TIMs office) was bizarre (I even started to shoot at Anderson while entering the control room, since I thought it has to be TIM, because the room resembled his office,).
Then the discussion between TIM and Anderson. I was sure there is something messing with my Shep's head and Anderson hanging around like a puppet was weird. Me shooting Anderson was even weirder (yay, space-magic..!). How come TIM has such a direct influence on my Shep? So, let's imagine it is all at face value. If Reaper-Tech is that advanced that you can directly control someone like in that scene, especially through an indoctrinated minion, why did not Saren in ME1 (or any random husk) stop Shep in this manner? Why did not TIM let Shep shoot him/herself?
Later, when Shep is unconcious and is being elevated to the Choosing Chamber, these were my thoughts: "Awe, cr@p...! This reminds me of the ending of Battlestar Galactica, which is the biggest let-down I've experienced."
I was expecting some divine cr@p. In the end, after having the conversation with the Starchild, I was pretty sure that he is with the Reapers. He himself states that, so why should I trust him? In the end, I got the refuse ending and was kind of disappointed, .

TL;DR:
At my very first playthrough without having heard of IT and WITH EC DLC, I was pretty sure that the scenes after Harbinger's beam is not real and there is something going on in the background.

€dit: Typos, spelling and grammar.

That's pretty much how I felt. I still have unanswered questions that I hope I'll be able to answer for myself during subsequent PTs. There were just too many obvious cues that everything post-Harby beam to think that something wasn't going on. The swaying skeletal trees are the first giveaway. The only time anything like that is present during the game is during Shep's dreams. They just look very out of place, aren't there before the blast, and move in an un-natural way.

Bleeding ceilings in the Citadel seemed like another dead giveaway to me.

[jgibson14352]

alright ill back off.

but seriously, where and when did the devs say anything about the force field? because either way, its just stupid. why cant we see it like we saw the force field EDI put up when we activated Legion? and why would there be gravity? if there were any, it would most likely be going in some random direction, like the warning on the citadel in ME2 states (the one that says objects falling will fall toward windows), not to mention how the Earths own gravity would affect it.

another thing, i thought this about synthesis awhile back; remember Raphael Vargas on Noveria? when you were trying to hack into his personal network, you had a conversation with him about how genetic modifications can take up to six months? they must not have tried jumping into green lasers. but the big thing that bothers me is that the light waves that take out/pacify the reapers on earth. theyre obviously going slower than light speed, i mean the reapers have time to turn and look. but then, after watching the Normandy and the fleets jump to FTL, we see the normandy trying to out run the light, that must be going way slower than light speed. i just dont get it.

Modifié par jgibson14352, 26 août 2012 - 08:06 .

[demersel]

Putok wrote...
Bleeding ceilings in the Citadel seemed like another dead giveaway to me.

What's a "bleeding ceilings"?

[TJBartlemus]

jgibson14352 wrote...

alright ill back off.

but seriously, where and when did the devs say anything about the force field? because either way, its just stupid. why cant we see it like we saw the force field EDI put up when we activated Legion? and why would there be gravity? if there were any, it would most likely be going in some random direction, like the warning on the citadel in ME2 states (the one that says objects falling will fall toward windows), not to mention how the Earths own gravity would affect it.

another thing, i thought this about synthesis awhile back; remember Raphael Vargas on Noveria? when you were trying to hack into his personal network, you had a conversation with him about how genetic modifications can take up to six months? they must not have tried jumping into green lasers. but the big thing that bothers me is that the light waves that take out/pacify the reapers on earth. theyre obviously going slower than light speed, i mean the reapers have time to turn and look. but then, after watching the Normandy and the fleets jump to FTL, we see the normandy trying to out run the light, that must be going way slower than light speed. i just dont get it.

Internet died and couldn't answer till now...I believe the devs either said it on twitter or in one of the conferences. I agree it is idiotic cause there has been no clues to such thing surrounding the Citadel in the game before or anything that could lead us to believe that is what is going on. 

My idea with the choice wave is that it gets stronger and faster the further away it gets from the origin. So what Shepard experiances is significantly less than what others experiance further away. Almost like a tsunami. The waves start small but the further away the bigger they get. That's my guess. Not fact, just opinion. My opinion wouldn't however cancel out the fact that after the choice Shep would be exposed to space and be insta-dead. 

[The Twilight God]

Please post a little bit of a quote so I at least know what post you're replying too.

demersel wrote...

First of all - the beam isn't a conduit.

It is called the Conduit in the game. Rather or not it's the same type as a mass realy is irrelevent. That's what Anderson and the save game file call it.

demersel wrote...

So you admit that at least the slide shows are in fact not what actually happens, but rather like a vision of the future. a fantasy, an assumption on what could happen.  That's good. I'm glad we sorted this out. But if those are unreal, how the rest is? 

Because they are literally presented to the player as not having happened. It's no interpreatation. It's irrefutable fact.

The rest actually occur as real-time cutscenes. The slide show is just a bunch of pictures while a narrator, in the present, says what they hope. want, wish, etc. to happen in the future - Literally speaking. Go on youtube and listen to them. People choose to believe it all happens because it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling, but it is never said in-game that any of that actually happens. It's a vision of what the future could be. That is how it is literally presented to the player.

It's like saying Martin Luther King's "I have a Dream" speech actually plays out right then and there. Sure, he has hopes and talks about them, and there could be a nice slideshow in the background depicting racial harmony, but that doesn't mean it will happen. It still hasn't. Racism is still very real, segretation is still prevalent and people are still discriminated on the basis of color.

demersel wrote...

We agree on the point that the catalyst whants to trick you. Ok.  So he says - " you can do A, B, and C."   you can ask him, " if I do a C, what will happen?" the catalyst shows you parts of the wision - "it will go like this" "OK, i like it. I pick C"   then you get a vision that literaly tells you "you picked C? ok it goes like this." using exactly the same pictures that the catalyst just showed you. 

It was added to the EC to show players what they were picking. As I've said before, this is for the benfit of the player. There is no indication that it actually beamed those images into Shepard's mind and Shepard never acknowledges seeing any images. It is your interpretation that Shepard actually sees that stuff, which is fine, but I disagree with you.

demersel wrote...

The catalyst tries to trick you. Everything he does is aimed at that. He can even make you see visions to do so (anderson and illusuve man choosing their options, parts of the vision of the future).   after you make a choice - you see a vision of the future.  Now prove to me that it isn't the catalyst still tricking you. And please don't use "but the catalyst is dead at this point!" argument - because it is anly his word you have for this fact, and we already agreed on that he's trying to trick you. 

The Crucible fires. Reapers go limp and I'd assume the fleets mop them up like the Quarians mopped up the disabled Geth fleet if you choose them over the geth. The only way the decption can continue is if it's a dream, which hasn't been established to be the case. I still have seen no convincing evidence that it's a dream, but i have plenty of evidence that it isn't. Your theory of continued deception hinges upon it being a dream which I'm saying it's not due to lack of evidence.

If this isn't what you mean, please ellaborate. What exactly are you saying is indicative of continued deception?

demersel wrote...

No. The catalyst chamber. So let's assume it is real. 

1 - everything is happening in reality.
2 - the crucible is real, and it is ready to fire.
3 - shepard is really there.
4 - Catalyst is there to trick shepard.
5 - the catalyst is actaully a reaper. (or on the side of the reapers.)
6 - Shepard at this point has no clue to what is crucible,  how does crucible work, and what does it actually do. 

all these are given in "everything is really happenning" scenario. 

Shepard knows the Crucible is meant to destroy the reapers. Hackett explicitely states that the scientist know it can destroy the Reapers.
Shepard (via Hackett) is under the assumption that it should have fired automatically.
Nothing at eye level is part of the Crucible. Shepard can see that the Crucible is a completely seperate structure above him from the control prongs, synthesis array and cable junction.

Why even present the options as physically isolated from the Crucible if it's just a dream? Why not have the dream take place within the Crucible so that they all would seem legitimate, indoctrinated or not?

The Twilight God wrote...

Here is the logical deduction:

1. The Crucible docks, but is not doing anything.
2. The power junction is eliminated violently.
3. The Crucible arms itself and fires.
4. It is thus inferred that something was preventing the Crucible from firing while the power junction remained active.
5. The destruction of the power junction terminated whatever condition existed that prevented the Crucible from arming.
6. The power junction was either itself, or was powering, something that prevented the Crucible from firing.
7. In the absence of this suppressing condition the Crucible initiates the destruction of the Reapers without any direct interaction with the Crucible itself.
8. The Crucible's default function is to destroy synthetic life.

There is nothing to indicate that it did not occur. Are you implying that the dream then starts in the Chamber, or the Chamber is the dream and Shepard never wakes up after collapsing? That is the only logical place a dream could start from. But if you want to just call everything a dream why not claim the whole series is a dream and he never awoke after the Beacon. Project lazurus? That's BS, right? Why does Saren stick around on Virmire instead of getting to the conduit if you do Virmire last. He has no reason to wait for Shepard to show up. How does the Rachni queen magically get off worlds? It must al be a dream.

demersel wrote...

Now. Why would the catalyst, that is trying to trick shepard, who doesn't have any idea how the thing works, why would he tell him, "If you shoot this tube you'll kill all reapers, including me.", especially if it's true???"

This is covered in my first post: http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419372
And in a secondary post linked from the first: http://social.biowar...372/19#13579695

I thought you said you read it all.

demersel wrote...

Great plan. You could just come up to almost dead shepard and say - you've got to jump into the beam. That's what the crucible is for. It is the only option. You thought it is for destroying reapers? Na-ha. It does stop the reaper threat, but by fusing all organic life with synthetics. Oh you don't believe me? Excuse me, do you have any kind of sceince degree? Did you actually work on building the thing? Did ever even glanced at the schematics? I thought so. Jump into the beam. What's that? The illusive man? He glanced at the schematics once? And he was sure that it allows a person to take control of all the reapers? Didn't you just shoot him in the head? Well, if you really want to, you can try crabbing those to sparckling electrodes. 

Covered above.

You're operating on a false premise.

demersel wrote...

You really didn't thought your IT-con nonsense through, did you? 

Are you trying to provoke an emotional response from me? You've succeeded. I'm assumed

[paxxton]

Is it really called the Conduit or just the beam? I bet it's the latter.

[Putok]

demersel wrote...

Putok wrote...
Bleeding ceilings in the Citadel seemed like another dead giveaway to me.

What's a "bleeding ceilings"?

In the first hallway after reaching the Citadel, there is blood dripping from the ceilings.

[demersel]

Fine...more reading....

[TJBartlemus]

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

We agree on the point that the catalyst whants to trick you. Ok.  So he says - " you can do A, B, and C."   you can ask him, " if I do a C, what will happen?" the catalyst shows you parts of the wision - "it will go like this" "OK, i like it. I pick C"   then you get a vision that literaly tells you "you picked C? ok it goes like this." using exactly the same pictures that the catalyst just showed you. 

It was added to the EC to show players what they were picking. As I've said before, this is for the benfit of the player. There is no indication that it actually beamed those images into Shepard's mind and Shepard never acknowledges seeing any images. It is your interpretation that Shepard actually sees that stuff, which is fine, but I disagree with you.

I disagree. The Catalyst takes the form of the Child on Earth. The Catalyst has never seen this child or heard this child. Only Shepard as far as we know. Yet he take the form of the child. Only way this is possible is to take this from Shepard's mind. So it is clear that the Catalyst is in Shep's mind. The Catalyst is the leader of the Reapers. Thus the Reapers are in Shepard's mind. Logical deduction. So knowing the Reapers are in your mind and are able to take images out, why can't they put them in? Shepard clearly closes his/her eyes before the "visions" appear and when they are done he/she opens them back open. From seeing the eyes close and then open the only thing the viewer can deduct is that the "visions" appeared in Shepard's mind.

You also have to remember the 2 aspects that make up Shepard. The actual Character in game and the player. BioWare strives to have this connection to be as close as possible during the series and there are seldom times in which this connection is broken. One such occurence is the Geth Fighter Squadren mission. We "Player Shep" in one scene saw the squad update the admiral. Being as we also see "Character Shep" still in the VI interface this would be impossible for Character Shep to see but it is possible for us as Player Shep to be able to. Another would also be where Hackett is told someone made it to the Citadel. Once again impossible for Character to see but as Player we do. Now in the Catalyst discussion where the visions occur there is no evident disconnect of Player and Character. So it is logical to deduct that both see the vision.

[cydoniawarrior]

TJBartlemus wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

demersel wrote...

We agree on the point that the catalyst whants to trick you. Ok.  So he says - " you can do A, B, and C."   you can ask him, " if I do a C, what will happen?" the catalyst shows you parts of the wision - "it will go like this" "OK, i like it. I pick C"   then you get a vision that literaly tells you "you picked C? ok it goes like this." using exactly the same pictures that the catalyst just showed you. 

It was added to the EC to show players what they were picking. As I've said before, this is for the benfit of the player. There is no indication that it actually beamed those images into Shepard's mind and Shepard never acknowledges seeing any images. It is your interpretation that Shepard actually sees that stuff, which is fine, but I disagree with you.

I disagree. The Catalyst takes the form of the Child on Earth. The Catalyst has never seen this child or heard this child. Only Shepard as far as we know. Yet he take the form of the child. Only way this is possible is to take this from Shepard's mind. So it is clear that the Catalyst is in Shep's mind. The Catalyst is the leader of the Reapers. Thus the Reapers are in Shepard's mind. Logical deduction. So knowing the Reapers are in your mind and are able to take images out, why can't they put them in? Shepard clearly closes his/her eyes before the "visions" appear and when they are done he/she opens them back open. From seeing the eyes close and then open the only thing the viewer can deduct is that the "visions" appeared in Shepard's mind.

You also have to remember the 2 aspects that make up Shepard. The actual Character in game and the player. BioWare strives to have this connection to be as close as possible during the series and there are seldom times in which this connection is broken. One such occurence is the Geth Fighter Squadren mission. We "Player Shep" in one scene saw the squad update the admiral. Being as we also see "Character Shep" still in the VI interface this would be impossible for Character Shep to see but it is possible for us as Player Shep to be able to. Another would also be where Hackett is told someone made it to the Citadel. Once again impossible for Character to see but as Player we do. Now in the Catalyst discussion where the visions occur there is no evident disconnect of Player and Character. So it is logical to deduct that both see the vision.

I think the child is a failed attempt to elicit an emotional response. The reaper that is the catalyst is not actually the child, but Shepard sees it as the child in his mind's eye because the kid is in his dreams and is stated in the art book to symbolise the people on earth shepard could not save. 

[The Twilight God]

CoolioThane wrote...

Well what about coats for one twilight?

Coates is never seen in the Citadel. A flycam shows stuff a player isn't even supposed to see. I guess the Crucible isn't there either since Bioware didn't render the whole thing and just the parts within shepard's like of sight. I can conclude the entire series doesn't exist outside a dream because Bioware didn't render entire planets and the whole universe on a 20gb disc.

It is these kind of weak arguments that make people not take you seriously.
 

Lokanaiya wrote...

TTG, what about the the white screen translations? Like when Harbinger knocks Shepard out with his laser, when you take the beam to the Citadel, when the platform lifts you up to the decision chamber, and when the tube is exploding after you pick Destroy. As the Geth consensus mission and the dreams prove, these are exscusively used for transitions *within* and *out of* dreams. Why would they occur in reality then?

Also, you never answered my post last night.

Circumstancial. It could also just be the transition they use when Shepard is out of it.

The use of it in the Conduit and lift actually go against your argument as why is Shepard seeing this light in a dream he's already in? In the dreams and the geth server it is used to conclude them, not initiate them. I didn't see any transition when you destroy the cable junction for Destroy. They use it to introduce shepard in Control too. It's just a transition they chose to use. I see no evidence that it is anything more.

I can't claim the overuse (or exclusive use) of a transition proves it's a dream. It's weak evidence, but it isn't conclusive. Dream Theory isn't the only reason the game developer would use the same transition.

[Hrothdane]

The Twilight God wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Well what about coats for one twilight?

Coates is never seen in the Citadel. A flycam shows stuff a player isn't even supposed to see. I guess the Crucible isn't there either since Bioware didn't render the whole thing and just the parts within shepard's like of sight. I can conclude the entire series doesn't exist outside a dream because Bioware didn't render entire planets and the whole universe on a 20gb disc.

It is these kind of weak arguments that make people not take you seriously.
 

As has already been said numerous times by numerous people on this thread, you DONT need the flycam to see Coates on the Citadel.

[Mavqt]

Hrothdane wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Well what about coats for one twilight?

Coates is never seen in the Citadel. A flycam shows stuff a player isn't even supposed to see. I guess the Crucible isn't there either since Bioware didn't render the whole thing and just the parts within shepard's like of sight. I can conclude the entire series doesn't exist outside a dream because Bioware didn't render entire planets and the whole universe on a 20gb disc.

It is these kind of weak arguments that make people not take you seriously.
 

As has already been said numerous times by numerous people on this thread, you DONT need the flycam to see Coates on the Citadel.

Doesn't he disappear during the first dialogue scene on the Citadel?

[The Twilight God]

Lokanaiya wrote...

And TTG, if Bioware wanted to disprove the dream theory, why have they (a) not just come out and said it? ( Defended the theory from people who wanted to move this thread to the Fan Creations board? and © Added more hints in the EC that it isn't real?

They don't want to take away anyone's ability to interpret things the way they wish. Even if that interpretating is gained by grasping at straws. There is no solid evidence that it's a dream. It's really that simple. The burden of proof is on dream theorist.

If someone wants to believe in it: So be it. It doesn't really matter. It's not hurting anyone. 

  

[TJBartlemus]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Now that I got all of your attention...I want to show something odd.

Have you noticed that in the new scenes of the EC regarding how Hackett knew Shep was on the Citadel the ships in relation to the Crucible change positions. Look from 7:22 to 7: 40 and you will see what I mean. In the first the Alliance ships are backwards to the front of the Crucible and then 10 secs later they have pulled a full 180. 

They are in the same position... They are facing forward and you see the the Crucible from the front. Then they are still facing forward as toy see the Crucible from behind. In both times they are moving in the same direction and facing the face direction as the crucible.

Looks like TJ was right to me....

Look at the Crucible when it docks. it as a protrusion with spinning crap on both ends that then falls off along with the outer shell. I think you're mistaking the front for the back.

Well there is only one huge ball on the crucible.

In the first clip it's clearly going "backwards". By that I mean the ball is at the back and the Alliance ships are facing the opposite direction as the above picture. In the second clip, the ball is at the front and the Alliance ships are facing the same way as the above picture. What do you see?

@TTG - No opinions or comments on this? Nothing to disprove it? If the scenes are indeed real then explain this. PS. Please don't say cause of a simple error in the development cause that is false. BioWare had plenty of time to produce it and with so much riding on it. Practically it meant the future of the ME universe in a majority of the ME fan population and if it means that much it also meant a lot to EA who would make a profit over possible future games/DLC if it went well. They wouldn't just leave an error like this. Don't say that they didn't notice it either cause that is BS. The dev team goes over everything many many times to find errors like this, and if I found it on the 2nd to 3rd time of watching it I am sure they did too. No, it was intentionally left like that. So knowing that please explain how this is logical in the literal sense.

[demersel]

The Twilight God wrote...
Here is the logical deduction:

1. The Crucible docks, but is not doing anything.
2. The power junction is eliminated violently.
3. The Crucible arms itself and fires.
4. It is thus inferred that something was preventing the Crucible from firing while the power junction remained active.
5. The destruction of the power junction terminated whatever condition existed that prevented the Crucible from arming.
6. The power junction was either itself, or was powering, something that prevented the Crucible from firing.
7. In the absence of this suppressing condition the Crucible initiates the destruction of the Reapers without any direct interaction with the Crucible itself.
8. The Crucible's default function is to destroy synthetic life.

I read your long posts AGAIN.  And again, there is nothing there that explaines why the catalyst tells shepard how to really kill all the reapers, and tells him the truth at that, if the decision chamber is real and crucible fires for real. 
He has absolutly NO REASON to do so. To gain shepards trust and mention this option first - fine, tell him to spin around three times, or to hit his shoues three times and make wish, or something more believable and techy, but don't tell him that he can just shoot the only thing that is preventing the crucible from firing (your version). It's not as if shepard is in a state of mind to rear-engineer the technology of the crucible. And it's not as if he has unlimited time. Why tell him the REAL way to destroy you? 

in this scenario it sounds like that - the catalyst - "I'will decieve shepard at all cost! To make it even more believable and  to give him hard time to look through my lies, i'll even tell him the real way to kill all reapers! I am that good at deception! and if for some reason, shepard still chooses to destroy all the reapers - then so be it! I have no reason to live, and hundreds of thousands of reapers made from the essences of all galactic civilizations during counless cycles of destruction and death - this all was for nothing, and has no reason to continue, if i fail to trick one barely alive human."  
This is your theory? Cause that's what it amounts to.  

Modifié par demersel, 26 août 2012 - 09:31 .

[CoolioThane]

Claim I'm wrong with no evidence lol twilight you're just being ignorant

[GethPrimeMKII]

I don't know why some people are desperately defending the literal ending. Each ending choice in its own way trivializes the entire trilogy. I wrote a long winded analysis about why in my document after doing some thinking and researching. I can post it if anyone is interested in reading

[Lokanaiya]

The Twilight God wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Well what about coats for one twilight?

Coates is never seen in the Citadel. A flycam shows stuff a player isn't even supposed to see. I guess the Crucible isn't there either since Bioware didn't render the whole thing and just the parts within shepard's like of sight. I can conclude the entire series doesn't exist outside a dream because Bioware didn't render entire planets and the whole universe on a 20gb disc.

It is these kind of weak arguments that make people not take you seriously.

Why would they even use the Coates model at all then? If would have been far easier to use a model that already had a helmet on. 

Lokanaiya wrote...

TTG, what about the the white screen translations? Like when Harbinger knocks Shepard out with his laser, when you take the beam to the Citadel, when the platform lifts you up to the decision chamber, and when the tube is exploding after you pick Destroy. As the Geth consensus mission and the dreams prove, these are exscusively used for transitions *within* and *out of* dreams. Why would they occur in reality then?

Also, you never answered my post last night.

Circumstancial. It could also just be the transition they use when Shepard is out of it.

The use of it in the Conduit and lift actually go against your argument as why is Shepard seeing this light in a dream he's already in? In the dreams and the geth server it is used to conclude them, not initiate them. I didn't see any transition when you destroy the cable junction for Destroy. They use it to introduce shepard in Control too. It's just a transition they chose to use. I see no evidence that it is anything more.

I can't claim the overuse (or exclusive use) of a transition proves it's a dream. It's weak evidence, but it isn't conclusive. Dream Theory isn't the only reason the game developer would use the same transition.

"These are excusively used for transistions within and out of dreams."

Excusively means they are used in those circumtances and ONLY in those circumstances

Earth -> Citadel
Control room -> Decision chamber

How are these not transitions?

You have to do a frame by frame analysis of the explosion to see the white screen, and if the light was coming from the explosion, the light shouldn't be white and you should be able to see the silhoeutte of Shepard, like you can in another shot.

The Twilight God wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

And
TTG, if Bioware wanted to disprove the dream theory, why have they (a)
not just come out and said it? ( Defended the theory from people who
wanted to move this thread to the Fan Creations board? and © Added
more hints in the EC that it isn't real?

They don't want
to take away anyone's ability to interpret things the way they wish.
Even if that interpretating is gained by grasping at straws. There is no
solid evidence that it's a dream. It's really that simple. The burden
of proof is on dream theorist.

If someone wants to believe in it: So be it. It doesn't really matter. It's not hurting anyone. 
 

1. Then, as I asked in my original post, why did they add more proof that it's a dream?

2. The burden of proof is on the literalist, since that requires a great deal more mental gymnastics and leaps of logic than IT, which fit the facts and themes of Mass Effect far more.

Has anyone yet been able to come up with something, anything, that explains how the hell Shepard jumping into a beam of light can change the DNA and physiology of the entire galaxy?

It is these kinds of arrogant comments that make people realize you are a troll. It's really that simple.

[The Twilight God]

Hrothdane wrote...

I'll ask again: if that scene with Anderson and TIM is an hallucination, when does the hallucination begin and when does it end?

When he collapses after tapping the console.

If the docking chamber is a hallucination I'd expect the Kid to at least make the Control and Synthesis options seem to be a part of the Crucible and not the Citadel. I'd have the dream take place within the Crucible so that they would appear legitimate regardless of rather or not Shepard is indoctrinated. I'd pretend to be Vendetta or make up a new prothean VI.

Hrothdane wrote...

You also have yet to respond to my comment about the shadows in that scene.

Glitchy programming or it just wasn't import enough to tackle. None of the shadows are correct because there are too many light sources in that room which would normally cause an effect in which shadows are arrayed all around a person with verying intensities. Bioware didn't bother to use such demanding shadow effects. 
 

Hrothdane wrote...

Also, the 1M1 components in the pathway to the TIM and Anderson chamber as well as on the top of Citadel are human-made (don't worry, you don't need a flycam to see them). Why would there be obvious human-constructed components in the Citadel's design and furthermore in an area that no one even knows about or travels to? Why did the designers specifically choose to reuse an asset that is clearly human-made and even labeled to draw attention to it?

And there is seeminly human stuff all over the Citadel. What makes these textures so special?

Lazy is lazy. They reused textures.

[The Heretic of Time]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I don't know why some people are desperately defending the literal ending. Each ending choice in its own way trivializes the entire trilogy. I wrote a long winded analysis about why in my document after doing some thinking and researching. I can post it if anyone is interested in reading

The Crucible itself and it's very existence trivializes the entire trilogy.


And I would actually be interested in reading that. So please do post it.


Edit: Also, my respect for Twilight God has suddenly increased. I like it how you dare to stand up against the IT-dream theory and how you manage to come with such compelling counter-arguments so quickly. I could learn a thing or two from you TTG, I acknowledge that now.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 août 2012 - 10:01 .

[Lokanaiya]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I don't know why some people are desperately defending the literal ending. Each ending choice in its own way trivializes the entire trilogy. I wrote a long winded analysis about why in my document after doing some thinking and researching. I can post it if anyone is interested in reading

The Crucible itself and it's very existence trivializes the entire trilogy.


And I would actually be interested in reading that. So please do post it.

That's one of the reasons many people in this thread believe it's a trap made by the Reapers.