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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#14126
GethPrimeMKII

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I don't know why some people are desperately defending the literal ending. Each ending choice in its own way trivializes the entire trilogy. I wrote a long winded analysis about why in my document after doing some thinking and researching. I can post it if anyone is interested in reading


The Crucible itself and it's very existence trivializes the entire trilogy.


And I would actually be interested in reading that. So please do post it.



Fortunately I don't care what you think. I'm still trying to grasp why you hang around a thread where 90% of its members dismiss you as a stupid troll.

Edit:

I don't feel like dropping a wall of text so I'll just sum up what I think is wrong with control since you seem so in love with that choice



The Catalyst needlessly presents Shepard with the opportunity to control the reapers. The Catalyst knows enough about Shepard to determine that his purpose for being in the Decision Chamber is to destroy all reapers. Then it stands to reason that the Catalyst knows exactly what Shepard will do in its place. If calling off the Reaper invasions or even using the Reapers to help organics were acceptable decisions to the Catalyst, it would have done so billions of years ago. The trilogy itself becomes pointless because everything leading up to the Reaper invasion could have been prevented by the Catalyst at any time on a whim. The events of Mass Effect 1 become pointless because the Catalyst, if it is the Citadel, could have easily opened its relay to dark space without the help of the keepers.      

The story is needlessly twisted to where Shepard has to sacrifice his life to accomplish something the Catalyst could have done on its own billions of years ago. Like the other choices, this one resorts to the canned “chosen one” plot to make Shepard an essential piece of what’s going on, when events can transpire the same way without Shepard’s intervention.
What’s even more idiotic about this choice is that Shepard just moments ago watches the Illusive Man lose his sanity trying to control the reapers. Yet he’ll happily give it a try himself because a Reaper AI he just met tells him, with zero evidence to back his claim, that he can? How stupid does Shepard have to be to bet the existence of humanity and the galaxy on something he just watched fail horribly less than ten minutes ago? [/b]

Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 26 août 2012 - 10:15 .


#14127
The Heretic of Time

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That's not very nice of you GethPrimeMKII. You hurt my feelings.

No, of course you don't. But still, that was uncalled for. Might as well not respond to me if you don't care what I think.

Also, I haven't been trolling for a while now.

#14128
The Heretic of Time

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Lokanaiya wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I don't know why some people are desperately defending the literal ending. Each ending choice in its own way trivializes the entire trilogy. I wrote a long winded analysis about why in my document after doing some thinking and researching. I can post it if anyone is interested in reading


The Crucible itself and it's very existence trivializes the entire trilogy.


And I would actually be interested in reading that. So please do post it.


That's one of the reasons many people in this thread believe it's a trap made by the Reapers.


If it was a trap of the reapers than ME3 should have foreshadowed that. I see no foreshadowing about the Crucible being a trap of the reapers.

I think the Crucible is just a weak plot device that BioWare had to use because they wrote themselves into a corner with ME2. That's my 2 cents.

#14129
The Twilight God

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Well there is only one huge ball on the crucible.

In the first clip it's clearly going "backwards". By that I mean the ball is at the back and the Alliance ships are facing the opposite direction as the above picture. In the second clip, the ball is at the front and the Alliance ships are facing the same way as the above picture. What do you see?


why show an incomplete Crucible?

When they jump in: http://www.youtube.c...ZVxtpghg#t=125s

It's ejected: http://www.youtube.c...FgUOKkQ8#t=410s

#14130
TJBartlemus

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The Twilight God wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Well there is only one huge ball on the crucible.

In the first clip it's clearly going "backwards". By that I mean the ball is at the back and the Alliance ships are facing the opposite direction as the above picture. In the second clip, the ball is at the front and the Alliance ships are facing the same way as the above picture. What do you see?


why show an incomplete Crucible?

When they jump in: http://www.youtube.c...ZVxtpghg#t=125s

It's ejected: http://www.youtube.c...FgUOKkQ8#t=410s


Hmm....okay. I am wrong. *shrugs* It happens. I just really thought I was on to something... :blush: Sorry.

#14131
TJBartlemus

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That's not very nice of you GethPrimeMKII. You hurt my feelings.

No, of course you don't. But still, that was uncalled for. Might as well not respond to me if you don't care what I think.

Also, I haven't been trolling for a while now.


I do say it is uncalled for to insult a person on a constant basis cause we are supposed to be better than that, but Hanar...sometimes you act in a way that deserves it sometimes. My opinion of you changes from time to time. I can accept if you acted in a more polite manner on a constant basis but you have yet to show me that you can. Right now I don't think you are trolling...but knowing your history for doing so it is safe to assume you may again. 

How about this. If you really care about what we think. If you don't act in a troll like manner for the time you are around the thread then I will not call you a troll from now on.

#14132
The Heretic of Time

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GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I don't feel like dropping a wall of text so I'll just sum up what I think is wrong with control since you seem so in love with that choice


I'm not in love with anything, I just think the renegade control ending has the coolest epilogue.


The Catalyst needlessly presents Shepard with the opportunity to control the reapers. The Catalyst knows enough about Shepard to determine that his purpose for being in the Decision Chamber is to destroy all reapers. Then it stands to reason that the Catalyst knows exactly what Shepard will do in its place.


This is assuming every Shepard is the same. Last time I checked, Mass Effect is a roleplaying game that allows us to create our own Shepard and gives us the freedom to make our own choices with our own motivations.


ME1 and ME2 did this perfectly. It's only in ME3 that most player authorship is taken away from the player. In ME3 Shepard no longer felt like my Shepard. He said and did things I never imagined he would do. I wanted to roleplay a pro-human Shepard. ME1 and ME2 let me do this. ME3 doesn't.

Whether the fact that ME3 almost completely takes away player authorship is on purpose or not is debatable, but I can assure you that if I had full control over my own Shepard and his motivations, his goal would have been to control the reapers from the very day he met The Illusive Man. Sadly, I do not get the opportunity to express my desire to control the reapers in ME3 and I get railroaded into playing a multicultural Shepard that is set on destroying the reapers.

Strange enough, at the very end, ME3 finally decided to give back my player authorship. Now I can finally express my desire to control the reapers, the desire I had all along since ME2. So of course I chose the Control ending.

The Control ending might seem out of place in ME3, I fully agree with you on that. But the Control ending is absolutely not out of place for the Shepard I created in the first 2 games.



If calling off the Reaper invasions or even using the Reapers to help organics were acceptable decisions to the Catalyst, it would have done so billions of years ago. The trilogy itself becomes pointless because everything leading up to the Reaper invasion could have been prevented by the Catalyst at any time on a whim. The events of Mass Effect 1 become pointless because the Catalyst, if it is the Citadel, could have easily opened its relay to dark space without the help of the keepers.


That is assuming that Catalyst has the power to open the dark-space relay. It doesn't seem the Catalyst is capable of doing that, at least not after the protheans messed with the Citadel 50.000 years ago.

It also seems the Catalyst isn't capable of calling off the reapers before the Crucible is docked. I do agree that this is very shady and makes little sense, but that's how things seem to be.

However, I fail to see how this only relates to the Control ending. The Catalyst not being able or not willing to call off the reapers is a general issue, it's not linked to one specific ending.
     

The story is needlessly twisted to where Shepard has to sacrifice his life to accomplish something the Catalyst could have done on its own billions of years ago. Like the other choices, this one resorts to the canned “chosen one” plot to make Shepard an essential piece of what’s going on, when events can transpire the same way without Shepard’s intervention.


Again, this is not necessarily true. The Crucible changed things, the Catalyst says so. It's not Shepard that is an essential piece of what's going on, the Crucible is. Shepard is not "the chosen one", he just so happens to be the one who opened the Citadel arms and activated the Crucible.


What’s even more idiotic about this choice is that Shepard just moments ago watches the Illusive Man lose his sanity trying to control the reapers. Yet he’ll happily give it a try himself because a Reaper AI he just met tells him, with zero evidence to back his claim, that he can? How stupid does Shepard have to be to bet the existence of humanity and the galaxy on something he just watched fail horribly less than ten minutes ago?


The situation of TIM is not even remotely comparable to the situation Shepard is in.
For starters: TIM was indoctrinated, Shepard isn't. TIM chose to implant himself with reaper tech, Shepard didn't. TIM spend a lot of time experimenting with all sorts of reaper tech, including the human reaper larva. Shepard didn't.

#14133
CoolioThane

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I can't wait until Leviathan so we can actually speculate and not spend all our time trying to argue against brick-wall ignorant people continually spouting **** whilst dismissing anything we say without any evidence at all.

Tuesday can't come soon enough!

#14134
GethPrimeMKII

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He's not going to change that's the problem. I've been around the internet long enough to know a troll when I see one. Btw the first thing they'll often do is deny being a troll.

#14135
The Heretic of Time

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TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That's not very nice of you GethPrimeMKII. You hurt my feelings.

No, of course you don't. But still, that was uncalled for. Might as well not respond to me if you don't care what I think.

Also, I haven't been trolling for a while now.


I do say it is uncalled for to insult a person on a constant basis cause we are supposed to be better than that, but Hanar...sometimes you act in a way that deserves it sometimes. My opinion of you changes from time to time. I can accept if you acted in a more polite manner on a constant basis but you have yet to show me that you can. Right now I don't think you are trolling...but knowing your history for doing so it is safe to assume you may again. 

How about this. If you really care about what we think. If you don't act in a troll like manner for the time you are around the thread then I will not call you a troll from now on.


Like I said, I haven't trolled for at least 2 days now. I'm not planning on trolling again anytime soon. Even trolling gets boring after a while and I've discovered and acknowledged that some of you are worth having discussions with. I had a great discussion with paxxton the other day. I enjoyed that. And I even acknowledged that Twilight God, a person who I disliked at first, is someone I could learn from.

#14136
The Heretic of Time

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GethPrimeMKII wrote...

He's not going to change that's the problem. I've been around the internet long enough to know a troll when I see one. Btw the first thing they'll often do is deny being a troll.


I'm going to prove you wrong. In fact I'm already proving you wrong, as I haven't trolled for a while now.

#14137
TJBartlemus

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That's not very nice of you GethPrimeMKII. You hurt my feelings.

No, of course you don't. But still, that was uncalled for. Might as well not respond to me if you don't care what I think.

Also, I haven't been trolling for a while now.


I do say it is uncalled for to insult a person on a constant basis cause we are supposed to be better than that, but Hanar...sometimes you act in a way that deserves it sometimes. My opinion of you changes from time to time. I can accept if you acted in a more polite manner on a constant basis but you have yet to show me that you can. Right now I don't think you are trolling...but knowing your history for doing so it is safe to assume you may again. 

How about this. If you really care about what we think. If you don't act in a troll like manner for the time you are around the thread then I will not call you a troll from now on.


Like I said, I haven't trolled for at least 2 days now. I'm not planning on trolling again anytime soon. Even trolling gets boring after a while and I've discovered and acknowledged that some of you are worth having discussions with. I had a great discussion with paxxton the other day. I enjoyed that. And I even acknowledged that Twilight God, a person who I disliked at first, is someone I could learn from.


Good. :lol: Lets hope it stays this way and we can have many reasonable discussions/debates in the future!!! 

#14138
The Heretic of Time

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CoolioThane wrote...

I can't wait until Leviathan so we can actually speculate and not spend all our time trying to argue against brick-wall ignorant people continually spouting **** whilst dismissing anything we say without any evidence at all.

Tuesday can't come soon enough!


What are you going to do if Levathian does not prove or add to the IT in any way? Or worse, what if Leviathan actually disproved the IT?


I'm not gonna play Leviathan myself, but I'll watch it on YouTube. I'm curious what the DLC will add to the story.

#14139
TJBartlemus

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

I can't wait until Leviathan so we can actually speculate and not spend all our time trying to argue against brick-wall ignorant people continually spouting **** whilst dismissing anything we say without any evidence at all.

Tuesday can't come soon enough!


What are you going to do if Levathian does not prove or add to the IT in any way? Or worse, what if Leviathan actually disproved the IT?

I'm not gonna play Leviathan myself, but I'll watch it on YouTube. I'm curious what the DLC will add to the story.


I don't know. I will have to reserve judgement until I actually play or see the DLC. Like you I am curious on what it adds. 3 hours...that's a pretty big DLC. Counter question - What will you do if it does indeed prove IT? 

#14140
The Heretic of Time

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TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That's not very nice of you GethPrimeMKII. You hurt my feelings.

No, of course you don't. But still, that was uncalled for. Might as well not respond to me if you don't care what I think.

Also, I haven't been trolling for a while now.


I do say it is uncalled for to insult a person on a constant basis cause we are supposed to be better than that, but Hanar...sometimes you act in a way that deserves it sometimes. My opinion of you changes from time to time. I can accept if you acted in a more polite manner on a constant basis but you have yet to show me that you can. Right now I don't think you are trolling...but knowing your history for doing so it is safe to assume you may again. 

How about this. If you really care about what we think. If you don't act in a troll like manner for the time you are around the thread then I will not call you a troll from now on.


Like I said, I haven't trolled for at least 2 days now. I'm not planning on trolling again anytime soon. Even trolling gets boring after a while and I've discovered and acknowledged that some of you are worth having discussions with. I had a great discussion with paxxton the other day. I enjoyed that. And I even acknowledged that Twilight God, a person who I disliked at first, is someone I could learn from.


Good. :lol: Lets hope it stays this way and we can have many reasonable discussions/debates in the future!!! 


Likewise.

I'm currently replaying the Mass Effect trilogy and while doing so I'm paying more attention to the indoctrination theme. For the first time I'm not playing as a complete renegade. I'm more "paragade-ish" this time.

I'm curious with Leviathan will add to ME3, although I will not buy it on release day. I will watch a playthrough of it on YouTube though.


We'll see what Leviathan will do to the IT. It might strengthen it, or it might weaken it, or it might even totally destroy it. I'm curious.

#14141
The Heretic of Time

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TJBartlemus wrote...

Counter question - What will you do if it does indeed prove IT? 


Apologize in this thread. I'm not even joking.

I will shake my head in disbelief though, because I personally think the IT is a stupid plotdevice, no offense.


That said, if Leviathan proves IT I demand that BioWare gives us the real post-IT ending to ME3 for free. If they first prove IT but then refuse to give us the actual ending of ME3 that we deserve than I don't think I'll ever buy a BioWare product ever again.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 août 2012 - 11:21 .


#14142
paxxton

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Or it can prove it. :D

#14143
Hrothdane

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The Twilight God wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

I'll ask again: if that scene with Anderson and TIM is an hallucination, when does the hallucination begin and when does it end?


When he collapses after tapping the console.

If the docking chamber is a hallucination I'd expect the Kid to at least make the Control and Synthesis options seem to be a part of the Crucible and not the Citadel. I'd have the dream take place within the Crucible so that they would appear legitimate regardless of rather or not Shepard is indoctrinated. I'd pretend to be Vendetta or make up a new prothean VI.


Why does Shepard suddenly have a hallucination and then stop having one, and why hallucinate the TIM and Anderson conversation?

The Twilight God wrote...

Glitchy programming or it just wasn't import enough to tackle. None of the shadows are correct because there are too many light sources in that room which would normally cause an effect in which shadows are arrayed all around a person with verying intensities. Bioware didn't bother to use such demanding shadow effects.


So "it wasn't intentional" is the best you can do? The characters are literally standing in a line in regards to the primary light source in the room, as seen by the console's shadow (better seen here). if they were in different parts of the room and facing different directions, you may have something, but they aren't. Wouldn't it be a rather odd coincidence that two characters that are used as symbolic representations of opposing ideologies in the decision chamber happen to have shadows pointing in different directions? Shadows play a prominent role in Shepard's dreams, so giving them significance here would only be consistent.

Furthermore, why do we suddenly get these unreal visions of the future? Even if the language used suggests that none of the scenes have actually happened yet, the slides themselves are obviously structured in a way that people can just assume they happened, as many of them have. Why does Shepard suddenly take a break from reality to envision the future through the eyes of himself/Hackett/EDI?

BioWare put effort into making assets easy to reuse by making the inscriptions easily mirrored or even flipped, XTX, 8-M-8, 1M1, ET3, etc..., but they are usually quite careful as to where they place them. The asset you linked may have the 1M1 symbol on it, but it is a different asset in a different game. I'm sticking to what we see in ME3. The human-built elements is not strong evidence on its own, but taken into the overall context it becomes more reasonable.

You seem to think we are proving a murder case instead of analyzing a piece of literature. Authorial intent is at play here. Circumstantial evidence carries more weight in literature and art because someone had to go through the effort to put it in in the first place, and if you have a multitude of such evidence, you can make accurate conclusions as to the author's intent. Logical and heuristic methods that apply to analyzing the real world don't work. Try applying Occam's Razor to a David Lynch film or House of Leaves and see how far you get. Heck, you can't even read Hemingway without needing to read beyond the actual words. Author's have a vested interest in adding complexity and obfucscation, especially in cases in which the reality of the situation is in question. By BioWare's own admission, they intended to cause immense amounts of speculation.

If you insist on trying to find deductive proof that one interpretation is true, I don't think you will find it. BioWare doesn't want us to find the truth so easily and set up the story in a way to hinder our attempts. I can only assume they had some purpose in promoting "Speculations for everyone!" to eventually lead up to some kind of reveal, but I don't know anything for certain.

#14144
masster blaster

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You see TTG. I think That up until Shepard goes up to the Catalyst chambers, is just a dream, but when we see Shepard with the Catalyst. It's an over lap between dream, and reality. It's like WNM, but on Earth.

Also I like to point out, since people call the Catalyst an AI, doesn't Leviathan have AI shackels? You see if the Catalyst is a AI, then this could mean that Leviathan is testing Shepard., yet if all Reapers have AI's, then what is to say Harbinger does have one.

Think about this Harbinger is seen as the Reaper leader of the Reaper army at the end of ME2. Harbinger is the oldest, and from the Leviathan files, is the First Reaper, or true Reaper to be created, or rebel.

Harbinger is the one Leading the attack on Earth, and tells the Reapers about Shepard. Now in ME2, Harbinger want Shepard dead or alive no matter what the cost were. Also if you think about it, wasn't Harbinger the Reaper that we see on TIM's screen at his base. Remember when talking with him at the Mars base, and you can clearly see that is Harinber, since Haringer is the only Reaper that we see with out a front Leg.

Also Remember at the end of ME2, Joker hands Shepard a data pad, which looks to be like Harbinger. I say Harbinger is the Catalyst.

#14145
GethPrimeMKII

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I don't feel like dropping a wall of text so I'll just sum up what I think is wrong with control since you seem so in love with that choice


I'm not in love with anything, I just think the renegade control ending has the coolest epilogue.


The Catalyst needlessly presents Shepard with the opportunity to control the reapers. The Catalyst knows enough about Shepard to determine that his purpose for being in the Decision Chamber is to destroy all reapers. Then it stands to reason that the Catalyst knows exactly what Shepard will do in its place.


This is assuming every Shepard is the same. Last time I checked, Mass Effect is a roleplaying game that allows us to create our own Shepard and gives us the freedom to make our own choices with our own motivations.


ME1 and ME2 did this perfectly. It's only in ME3 that most player authorship is taken away from the player. In ME3 Shepard no longer felt like my Shepard. He said and did things I never imagined he would do. I wanted to roleplay a pro-human Shepard. ME1 and ME2 let me do this. ME3 doesn't.

Whether the fact that ME3 almost completely takes away player authorship is on purpose or not is debatable, but I can assure you that if I had full control over my own Shepard and his motivations, his goal would have been to control the reapers from the very day he met The Illusive Man. Sadly, I do not get the opportunity to express my desire to control the reapers in ME3 and I get railroaded into playing a multicultural Shepard that is set on destroying the reapers.

Strange enough, at the very end, ME3 finally decided to give back my player authorship. Now I can finally express my desire to control the reapers, the desire I had all along since ME2. So of course I chose the Control ending.

The Control ending might seem out of place in ME3, I fully agree with you on that. But the Control ending is absolutely not out of place for the Shepard I created in the first 2 games.



You're missing the point of what you're quoting completely. It doesn't matter how out of touch you felt with your Shepard. The Catalyst has no reason to give you the keys to your own Reaper army, yet it does. Why? How does it benefit the reapers or the catalyst to hand over complete control to the first person who can reach the catalyst? Why hand control over to someone who will immediately undo everything? Im glad you finally got your megalomaniacal fix and assumed control of the reapers, but aren't you at least interested in why you were given that choice?



If calling off the Reaper invasions or even using the Reapers to help organics were acceptable decisions to the Catalyst, it would have done so billions of years ago. The trilogy itself becomes pointless because everything leading up to the Reaper invasion could have been prevented by the Catalyst at any time on a whim. The events of Mass Effect 1 become pointless because the Catalyst, if it is the Citadel, could have easily opened its relay to dark space without the help of the keepers.


That is assuming that Catalyst has the power to open the dark-space relay. It doesn't seem the Catalyst is capable of doing that, at least not after the protheans messed with the Citadel 50.000 years ago.

It also seems the Catalyst isn't capable of calling off the reapers before the Crucible is docked. I do agree that this is very shady and makes little sense, but that's how things seem to be.

However, I fail to see how this only relates to the Control ending. The Catalyst not being able or not willing to call off the reapers is a general issue, it's not linked to one specific ending.
     

The protheans didn't mess with the Citadel. They messed with the keepers by stopping them from responding to the vanguard reaper's signal to open the relay. It is a logical assumption that the Catalyst could control the Citadel and it's functions when the Catalyst states it IS the Citadel. 

It does relate to the control ending. Shepard, even your Shepard, is going to immediately call off the reaper attack when he assumes control.  The catalyst is offering you full control of the reapers despite knowing full well that is what you're going to do. 



The story is needlessly twisted to where Shepard has to sacrifice his life to accomplish something the Catalyst could have done on its own billions of years ago. Like the other choices, this one resorts to the canned “chosen one” plot to make Shepard an essential piece of what’s going on, when events can transpire the same way without Shepard’s intervention.


Again, this is not necessarily true. The Crucible changed things, the Catalyst says so. It's not Shepard that is an essential piece of what's going on, the Crucible is. Shepard is not "the chosen one", he just so happens to be the one who opened the Citadel arms and activated the Crucible.


The catalyst claims the crucible changed things, yet also claims the crucible is just a battery. So the only thing that changes is the introduction of a power source. I fail to see how plugging a battery into the citadel gets the catalyst to consider it a good plan to surrender control of his entire force over to an organic. This whole thing does make Shepard some kind of chosen one in a way. He's being offered something never offered to any organic ever. Why? Why offer this choice to Shepard, who hadn't even considering control, and not TIM or the protheans or the thousands of other races who poured all their effort into control the reapers? 


What’s even more idiotic about this choice is that Shepard just moments ago watches the Illusive Man lose his sanity trying to control the reapers. Yet he’ll happily give it a try himself because a Reaper AI he just met tells him, with zero evidence to back his claim, that he can? How stupid does Shepard have to be to bet the existence of humanity and the galaxy on something he just watched fail horribly less than ten minutes ago?


The situation of TIM is not even remotely comparable to the situation Shepard is in.
For starters: TIM was indoctrinated, Shepard isn't. TIM chose to implant himself with reaper tech, Shepard didn't. TIM spend a lot of time experimenting with all sorts of reaper tech, including the human reaper larva. Shepard didn't.




             If Shepard isn't indoctrinated, why does the catalyst take the form of a human child only Shepard managed to notice? Regardless of how advanced this AI is, it isnt all knowing. It cant just up and know Shepard saw this kid and decide this is the form it wants to take. And if you're going to argue that it chose this form because it symbolizes Shepard's guilt for those he couldn't save, then there are sooo many better forms the catalyst could have taken. 

          I see you're trying to compare cases of reaper tech exposure between TIM and Shepard. What about Object Rho in the Arrival DLC? It was meant to bridge the gap between ME2 and ME3 for a reason. Also, TIM wasn't indoctrinated through reaper tech implants. The comic Mass Effect Evolution explains how he became indoctrinated. It doesn't make sense for TIM to have reaper tech implanted in his body. He has it implanted in others to create loyal foot soldiers, he has it implanted in Paul Grayson for the purpose of revenge and experimentation. It stands to reason that TIM knows full well what will happen to someone whose implanted with reaper tech. It doesn't make sense for him to implant himself with reaper tech if his ultimate goal is to control the reapers. He'd just end up being directly controlled by what he seeks to control

           Regardless whether Shepard is indoctrinated or not, he witnesses first hand what happens to people who desire control over the reapers. He's seen it fail. He knows through Vendetta that the last cycle tried it and failed. Why go along with it because the enemy itself claims it will work if you do it? What makes Shepard different from all others who have tried it before? Is he special? Chosen?




I wrote my counter points down in red (hopefully the forum doesn't mess it up). I'm willing to have a discussion with you so long you don't start hurling insults again. 
         

#14146
plfranke

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I find it funny when people say Shepard can control the Reapers because he isn't indoctrinated. Yeah, because every time someone in the series has been indoctrinated, they've been fully aware the whole time that they were indoctrinated right? I mean that was the first thing I thought when the catalyst tried to throw that bull on me. "He could have never taken control, because we already controlled him. But you can because you are Shepard and perfect in every way."

#14147
Putok

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plfranke wrote...

I find it funny when people say Shepard can control the Reapers because he isn't indoctrinated. Yeah, because every time someone in the series has been indoctrinated, they've been fully aware the whole time that they were indoctrinated right? I mean that was the first thing I thought when the catalyst tried to throw that bull on me. "He could have never taken control, because we already controlled him. But you can because you are Shepard and perfect in every way."


*Starbrat waves hand*

"This is not the Harbinger you are looking for."

*Shepard drools*

"Okay."

*Starbrat waves hand*

"You are the chosen one. Plug yourself into the Reapers. It will fix everything."

#14148
The Twilight God

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Come on, man. you could have just list the answers numerically. Now I have to go in and edit it so everthing isn't a clusterf*ck.

demersel wrote...

*snip*


1. Harbinger intended to daze him. Shepard now more suscpetable to influence as he is physically weaker and groggy (i.e. less concentration). Harbinger intended for TIM to hold him in place with Dominate while the REapers put the whammy on Shepard. Their overconfidence bit them in the ass again.

2. If he wants Shepard alive he'd have to kill Shepard to blow up the Normandy. It would possibly be harder for them to indoctrinate him if his will is fueled by anger. Or it's stealth drive allowed it to go undetected and Harbinger doesn't see with eyes. The Normandy was capable of atmosphere stealth on Ilos as the geth fleet should have shot it down otherwise when the mako as dropped. Really: Bioware wanted to put in a rescue scene and they had 2gb to do the DLC. They didn't bother to add a distraction for Harbinger. I find it odd you'd even press this issue considering you have no solid explaination either. It takes place before the beam so it isn't even relevent to your argument.

3. Let me repeat. Coates is never shown to the player in the Citadel. Fact.  

Reapers forces and/or Reapers killed that people making up the generic body pile textures seen around the conduit, in the Citadel and on the Collector base.  It means nothing just like that 1m1 texture that also appears in ME1. This type of weak evidence is why noboy takes you seriously. Those bodies could have been there from 3 hours earlier. You act as if the Reapers hadn't been sending bodies to be processed and the Conduit was just a red carpet laid out just for Hammer.

4 & 5. First, I never said Anderson and TIM are hallucinations. I said it's plausible that they are. It could be either or.

The keepers handle the bodies. Maruader Sheilds and those 3 husks could have been the last ones in that area before heading down to engage Hammer. A battle seems to have carried on after Shepard lost consciousnes as there are additional turned makos and other bodies (human and husks) laying about that weren't there when Shepard was knocked out.
 
6. There was Reaper forces there.  You fought them on the way there. They came to engage you. There was a destroyer parked in front of it. Even after the beam hit more presumably came down from the Citadel while Shepard as unconscious. Did you forget the entire last hours of the game?

7. It isn't weak. You're just angry that I have answers. Stop getting pouty when the conversation doesn't go the way you'd hoped. You heard Hackett. Therefore a working radio must have been there. If you here a voice and you don't see the source do you immediately assume you're losing your mind? You look for where it's coming from first. You don't jump to conclusions that you're going crazy. So why the leap to it has to be all a dream? Since when were did you get your Phd in hardsuit communications? As you aren't a certified expert in ME hardsuits you're evidence is circumstantial.

8. Because if Shepard runs out he would be boned. That's Biowares choice of a game mechanic. If you don't like that answer then I'm sorry. Deal with it. It switches from the normal conditions and becomes more of an interactive cutscene. Hell, one could even say it's modified to incorporate pre and post thermal clip capability if it makes you happy.

When firing the thanix missiles at the Destroyer Garrus used an assault rifle in the cutscene to shoot the cannibals. Then Shepards says, "Firing!" he has a sniper rifle. Gasp! it was ALL a dream. On Therum when heading for the prothean ruins right before the Geth ambush my pistol was suddenly an assault rifle, then it magically changed back. Gasp! It really was all just a dream

9. Given the blood spread I'd say he was injured in his arm somewhere as the blood seems to be runing down his arm. Both arms actually as it's not just the left arm that's bleeding. So the blood doesn't necessarily come from any wound on his lower left torso. Shepard had been favoring that side beforehand and it may just be coincidence that anderson was shot in that area. The point of that moment may simply be to convey that blood is being lost and  provoke a certain psychological reaction. It could even be hallucination even if Anderson and TIM are there.  

10. Maybe his signal couldn't get through the Citadel with the arms closed. Or it's a close range receiver. Contemplating the reasons why a video character didn;t do something at this or that time is going to be an exercise in speculation.

11. How should I know? Why didn't he, even in a lucid dream? That argument goes both ways.

The first thing he does upon opening the wards arms is lie back and relax. Presumably expecting the Crucible to fire once it docked. When that did not occur Hackett immediately contacted him. The final chat with anderson takes place while it is docking. Shepard is weak, dazed, psychologically convinced he's losing blood and his body is reacting accordingly. I'm not sure if he's thinking straight enough to even consider calling in the space marines.  

12. The Crucible is escorted by dreadnaught and cruiser who are currently pitched in battle holding off the Reapers. There are also tons of oculus zipping around to pick off shuttles as well. Maybe the shuttles where all exhausted getting Hammer on the ground. When the Crucible docks it seems it was expected to fire automatically. So what were these marines supposed to do exactly when they got there? Oir were the scientist supposed to arm up and go in... to do what? Moral support? They have no idea why it isn't firing. For al we know marines were sent in and they went to the Council Chambers or C-sec Control, known places where someone might open the arms.

Who knows? Just because you want to nitpick plot irrelevencies, doesn't prove it's a dream. It only shows that the writters did not address every concievable possibility on-screen.

13. Nearly dead? How do you figure? I've seen more blood than that coming from my own body and it was a head injury (sure you'll have some snarky remark for that). I'm alive and kicking and was walking around the whole time. Now he regained consciousness and mobility. This happens in real life all the time. I've been sick enough where I could stand and after a brief rest period I could walk again. You don't know how long Shepard was out before he wakes up.

14. No he does not give any definitive indicator that he literally saw those images. That is your own interpretation of Shepard's pondering what he's been told. Nothing more. And you're welcome to believe it. Just as I am free to believe. Shepard does not see it.

15. So now the whole series is a dream because we don;t know how eezo work? Posted Image

16. It isn't inconsistent. It's a person expressing their wishes. This type of narrative is not unique to ME3.

17. Prove it's the same guy. Prove he died. Otherwise, you have no case. 

demersel wrote...

You're really grasping at straws, and force everything to fit your version. ))


You're clearly angry that I won't believe your shaky unproven theory. You might want to calm down and recognize what we're discussing: a video game.

#14149
The Twilight God

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jgibson14352 wrote...
theyre only going after each other. i consider that b*tching


I'm not ****ing at anyone. I'm holding a discussion which appears to be upsetting my opposition for some unknown reason. I'm replying to his comments. Now if he chooses to respond to other posts that aren't even directed at him with snarky remarks that's on him. Not me.

#14150
The Twilight God

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TJBartlemus wrote...

Yes. The device is the combination of the Catalyst (Citadel) and the Crucible. So in destroying a part of the Citadel you are damaging a part of the device. 


No, the Crucible was adapted to use the Citadel. It operated by itself prior to that adaptation. The Crucible is not the Citadel. It needs the Citadel to deliver it's payload through the relays. By itself you would just have just fired that initial blast that hit earth and presumably the Local Cluster. But that's only a small portion of the galaxy. I assume that's why it failed before and they had to adapt it in the first place.