80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Iconoclaste]

masster blaster wrote...

I have to disagree with that. If That's the case then Wrex shouldn't have died at all do even though he was shot, and Shepard was more f*** up than Wrex was. Also if what TTG says happens, yet with IT still happening, then Shepard's implants are gone. Catalyst says Shepard is partly Synthetic, in which case. By picking Destroy, not only do all Synthetics die, but Shepard's implants as well. Think about it if all Synthetics are all going do die, then everything that made Shepard come back to life is gone.

Just on that point : after "destroy", lots of stuff doesn't magically "disappear" simply because it's "Reaper-Era tech". I point you towards IT's proposition, repeated sooo many times : "Don't believe the Catalyst!". Well, now on this "tech vanishing issue", I don't see why anyone wishes to believe the Kid.

I believe that what was meant by his reference is the possibility that such a thing would happen, since the "Destroy space magic" shuts down or destroys all the Reaper-related technology. But Shepard had Cerberus implants, from what we know. Even the Reapers do not "vanish" after the Red Space Magic Wave go past them : they simply fall to the ground, motionless.
 And now what about all the EZO cores of the Alliance fleet? The Normandy is almost wrecked by the Red Wave, but all the remaining Alliance ships are seen mostly intact in the aftermath, when Hackett tells of the "rebuilding". Mmm...

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 août 2012 - 02:44 .

[The Twilight God]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Why would they even use the Coates model at all then? If would have been far easier to use a model that already had a helmet on.

Irrelevent,. Does not matter. Player never sees coats. Not valid evidence. The end.

Believe it if you wish, but I will never accept anything that cannot be seen in the game as INTENDED by the developer.

Lokanaiya wrote...

"These are excusively used for transistions within and out of dreams."

Apparently not. Because he's not dreaming. Going up the conduit: not dreaming. Up the lift: not dreaming. Exiting geth server: not dreaming. Because it occurs mutilple time while he's supposedly in the middle of a dream. Because it's the only trasition effect present in the entire game. See how easy I did that. It's circumstantial. It would never hold up in court.

it's a dream = transitions = dreams

That's circular logic.

Lokanaiya wrote...

You have to do a frame by frame analysis of the explosion to see the white screen, and if the light was coming from the explosion, the light shouldn't be white and you should be able to see the silhoeutte of Shepard, like you can in another shot.

Post a link to exactly the scene you're talking about because there is no transition and I've looked at it in slow motion while repeatedly hitting pause/play. If I have to load it to a video editor to see the video millisecond by millisecond to capture one particular millisecond out of a scene it's irrelevent as the player isn't even expected to see this.

And if it's all the dream should the transition be after the Normandy flies off and just before the breathe scene?

Lokanaiya wrote...

1. Then, as I asked in my original post, why did they add more proof that it's a dream?

Well, obviously, my answer would be they didn't.

Lokanaiya wrote...

2. The burden of proof is on the literalist, since that requires a great deal more mental gymnastics and leaps of logic than IT, which fit the facts and themes of Mass Effect far more.

Has anyone yet been able to come up with something, anything, that explains how the hell Shepard jumping into a beam of light can change the DNA and physiology of the entire galaxy?

No, we're still trying to figure out how a material having mass can decrease or increase mass by adding atomic mass in the form of electrons to it. This is more perplexing when you consider eezo has to be made of the same stuff as everything else as it comes from a dead star. So I guess all science fiction in the history of science fiction has all been dream sequences.

No, you're asking me to prove a negative. All you have to do to see it "literally" is play and game and have working eyes. Literalism does not apply context which is why it's a poor term to use for non-ITer are IT con. By stating it's a dream, hallucination or even that it's happening but there is indoctrination taking place on a wake shepard you place context on a scene that is beyond a simple literal view. So, no, YOU have the burden of proof for IT dream as I have the burden of proof for IT con. But we aren't discussing con, we're discussing dream in this thread. My thread we discuss con. So, YOU need to provide evidence. to support YOUR claim.

Lokanaiya wrote...

It is these kinds of arrogant comments that make people realize you are a troll. It's really that simple.

Boo-hoo! I wont blindly believe in your iffy theory so I'm a troll.

[masster blaster]

Oh and if you say TTG that " Well what you said makes less sense for IT dream theory.." well no. A Dream can show you what you want, and what you have seen/ heard while you were awake. Also correct me if I am wrong, but why on Earth can't we not Control all Synthetics in Control, Yet in Destroy we kill all Synthetics. So doesn't that mean that nothing really can happen, because the other Contridicts the other option. And may I say that if Control is the first thing you get if you save the Collector base. Then why isn't Destroy not an option?

Oh and can I say why the Hell will Harbinger let Shepard go up the Citadel, let the Crucible dock. Even though they have no clue what it does, yet the Catalyst does, just by a few minutes it knows what the Crucible does.

Makes no sense if this is happening in real life. That is why IT dream/ Hallustination is better.

I agree that Harbinger doesn't hit Shepard, but manages to stop it's beam once it knocks Shepard back. Yet Shepard starts to go into a dream state, yet when Shepard goes up to the Catalyst chambers, that's when. WNM happens right when we see Shepard in the Chambers, and once Shepard makes the choice. Then Harbinger either kills Shepard in refuse. Make Shepard a Reaper in Control, Turns Shepard into a Reaper upgrade and completing their evolution, and Destroy trys to kill Shepard but fails do to the Normandy going to go find Shepard.

[Codename_Code]

With all the Anderson especulation, Im starting to think that the indoc allucination starts just before the run to the beam. Considering the beam is not only a transport to the citadel ( even when the citadel is sealed and you dont see a visible connection ) but also the main reaper indoctrination mechanism on earth, its a trap and Shepard is getting closer and closer to it. This would explain the convenient undefended stance.

- Bioware retconed the run to the beam really drastically, the EC starts basically there, this gives this whole scene a suspicious credibility, why harbinger is not firing the nromandy ? maybe because shepard is already dreaming.
- We see Anderson talking in the cutscene but we dont see him again, not running, not helping in the retcon evac scene, not getting hurt by any reaper beam... Coates mentions that nobody made it in, but also Hacket report is about only one person.
- They added the deleted scene where you get you teanmates killed, a scene they didnt like originally,  maybe they feel free now to include them if this happens inside the range of speculations.
- We can see the dream trees when Shepard is running, but nowhere else in London (grasping, I know ).
-Shepard gets hit by a vaporizer beam of death, survives and wakes up closer to the beam when she should have been pushed way back and insta-killed.
- Help me here, who mentions the reaper conduit first ? and how they know it shoots you up you to the citadel ?, if there are indoctrinated agents ( as mentioned by EDI in some report in the normandy ) what if this is some false intel, trying to get the whole resintance into that specific trap convincing them it is a weak point.... Shepard and company would not just walk there otherwise ( Shepard even mentions that anybody getting "in there" is going to get indoctrinated or something)


I say that the weird scene where they crash into something and shepard stumbles is the last real thing we see. Speculations

Modifié par Codename_Code, 27 août 2012 - 04:13 .

[JesseLee202]

I has an inside source... very trustworthy...

I heard that Coates is not indoctrinated... nor is he on the Citadel.

[Iconoclaste]

Codename_Code wrote...

- Bioware retconed the run to the beam really drastically, this gives this whole scene a suspicious credibility, why harbinger is not firing the nromandy ? maybe because shepard is already dreaming.
- We see Anderson talking in the cutscene but we dont see him again, not running, not helping in the retcon evac scene, not getting hurt by any reaper beam... Coates mentions that nobody made it in, but also Hacket report is about only one person.
- We can see the dream trees when Shepard is running, but nowhere else in London (grasping, I know ).

Harbinger is not shooting at the Normandy because the Conduit's structure is standing between Harby and the Normandy.

The reason why Anderson can be on the Citadel at the same moment Shepard is, but not being detected might just be because Shepard is monitored by his omnitool, and Anderson is not (device broken? TIM interference while Shepard is approaching? ) . All remaining communications are conducted between Shepard and Hackett, even if Anderson is present, and that points towards Anderson not having a functional communication / monitoring device on him at that moment.

Coates could not see the whole sorroundings of the Conduit's base, Anderson and others could easily have come from the sides. In fact, there is just no reason for Harbinger to position himself behind the Conduit's structure to prevent runners from reaching it, if the only way in was the deserted street / field Shepard used. Harbinger could as well have positioned himself in front of the conduit, and it would surely have been more effective that way. The order "retreat to the buildings" gives a hint that there are "safe ways out" to where buildings are (not backwards, in the deserted area), so a safe way "out" at that time can easily be a "safe way in" just a few moments before : the sides of the conduit's base. That would explain why Harbinger had to take and apparently "ineffective" position behind the conduit : to cover as large as possible all around the Beam.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 août 2012 - 03:14 .

[Lokanaiya]

Codename_Code wrote...

With all the Anderson especulation, Im starting to think that the indoc allucination starts just before the run to the beam. Considering the beam is not only a transport to the citadel ( even when the citadel is sealed and you dont see a visible connection ) but also the main reaper indoctrination mechanism on earth, its a trap and Shepard is getting closer and closer to it. This would explain the convenient undefended stance.

- Bioware retconed the run to the beam really drastically, the EC starts basically there, this gives this whole scene a suspicious credibility, why harbinger is not firing the nromandy ? maybe because shepard is already dreaming.
- We see Anderson talking in the cutscene but we dont see him again, not running, not helping in the retcon evac scene, not getting hurt by any reaper beam... Coates mentions that nobody made it in, but also Hacket report is about only one person.
- We can see the dream trees when Shepard is running, but nowhere else in London (grasping, I know ).
-Shepard gets hit by a vaporizer beam of death, survives and wakes up closer to the beam when she should have been pushed back and vaporized.

I say that the weird scene where they crash into something and shepard stumbles is the last real thing we see. Speculations

I agree with you. It explains a lot of things, like why the white transistion occurs when Harbinger shoots you and how the Normandy is able to get to you so quickly, especially when the beam supposedly messes up navigation. (Hence why the Thanix missiles didn't work the first time)

[Iconoclaste]

Thanix missiles don't have Joker as a pilot !

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 août 2012 - 03:18 .

[Lokanaiya]

The Twilight God wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

"These are excusively used for transistions within and out of dreams."

Apparently not. Because he's not dreaming. Going up the conduit: not dreaming. Up the lift: not dreaming.

That's what we're debating right now.

Exiting geth server: not dreaming.

"These are excusively used for transistions within and OUT of dreams."

Do you need me to tell you what a transistion out of a dream would be? *cough*waking up*cough*

How many times do I have to say this?

Because it occurs mutilple time while he's supposedly in the middle of a dream. Because it's the only trasition effect present in the entire game.

Erm, no. Where are you getting that from? Most of the transistions are these wonderful things called loading screens. You might have heard of them, might not have. The ones that aren't loading screens are black screens.

See how easy I did that. It's circumstantial. It would never hold up in court.

it's a dream = transitions = dreams

That's circular logic.

You mean like the there's a white transistion during the ending, so the transistion must not be used excusively in dreams, therefore the ending isn't a dream?

I'd answer the rest of your post, but I have school tomorrow morning, and I better get to bed. That, and there's only so much concentrated stupidity/intertional blindness I can take.

Goodnight all!

[masster blaster]

Night Loka So do I.

[Lokanaiya]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Thanix missiles don't have Joker as a pilot !

Agh, duh. You're right, that was a stupid point. Windows and a human pilot probably would help with navigation. My bad.

Alright, now off to bed!

[Codename_Code]

About the white splash dream transitions, what if this is some inception dream inside a dream, It could be Shepard going trough layers of indoctrination attempts and not just dream/waking up/dream, every layer more surreal than the previous ( run to the beam/ citadel walk conversation with TIM/ ethereal magic elevator catalyst)

And the splash is in the first leviathan trailer, there is something about it there I suppose.

Modifié par Codename_Code, 27 août 2012 - 03:32 .

[Iconoclaste]

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and can I say why the Hell will Harbinger let Shepard go up the Citadel, let the Crucible dock. Even though they have no clue what it does, yet the Catalyst does, just by a few minutes it knows what the Crucible does.

On this point, only.

The Alliance is fighting a desperate war, they put all their might in making a sure way for the Crucible, and timing is essential. When the Reapers see that runners are trying to enter the Citadel by the "Conduit", they divert some of their forces there to intercept. They made a choice, it lessened their available strenght to intercept the Crucible, it made for an interesting play, it puts pressure on the player.

The Catalyst is not a simple AI or software-driven intelligence : it's the "chief AI" of the Reapers, and it surely has a much advanced and powerful processing power. To be able to subvert minds and suggest "dreams" and "hallucinations", in all regards this is a powerful AI. No doubt it can asses rapidly what the Crucible is doing to its systems. Even if it doesn't know every detail of what's going to happen, it's still more informed on the Crucible's capabilities than any other being in the game, even the Crucible's designers, since they didn't even know of the intimate functions of the Citadel.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 août 2012 - 03:34 .

[masster blaster]

But what if Leviathan is talking about Harbinger being the first Reaper, indacting that Catalyst at the end is Harbinger because it's the Leader of the Reapers, and Harbinger is the First true Reaper. Also Leviathan has AI shackels from the files so he could be the one pulling the strings all along. Hence He could be the boss of the Reapers.

Just saying we only can speculate so in the end it's true, and false up to Bioware but I have to go to bed now got school in the morning. Loved the debate we had so with that I, or we can continue this tommorow. Night everyone.

[Iconoclaste]

Good night Master.

Ahhh, schooldays...

[jojon2se]

Codename_Code wrote...
...
Considering the beam is not only a transport to the citadel ( even when the citadel is sealed and you dont see a visible connection ) but also the main reaper indoctrination mechanism on earth, its a trap and Shepard is getting closer and closer to it. This would explain the convenient undefended stance.
...

Well, yes. I thought everybody was making the assumption that the "blanket" indoctrination message was compelling the populace to "walk toward the light", so to speak...?

[NubXL]

Someone just linked me to a new "documentary" about this. Have all of your mental capabilities really eroded THAT severely over this? I've never seen desperation or delusion on this level over a video game. That kind of thing is usually reserved for long-term meth addicts or those suffering from untreated schizophrenia. Get help. All of you.

[byne]

NubXL wrote...

Someone just linked me to a new "documentary" about this. Have all of your mental capabilities really eroded THAT severely over this? I've never seen desperation or delusion on this level over a video game. That kind of thing is usually reserved for long-term meth addicts or those suffering from untreated schizophrenia. Get help. All of you.

Oh, we havent had one of these kinds of trolls in here in a while. Sort of refreshing.

[NubXL]

It was sad that this kept going on after the EC. Now I feel like I need to help you guys at this point. I'm sure some of you have loving families who are worried about you. Take a step back into reality for your own sakes, if not for your loved ones. There are pills that can help you through this.

[masster blaster]

Okay I have  never said this to anyone's but.I am giving you the middle.finger Nub..Good night everyone.

Modifié par masster blaster, 27 août 2012 - 04:10 .

[byne]

NubXL wrote...

It was sad that this kept going on after the EC. Now I feel like I need to help you guys at this point. I'm sure some of you have loving families who are worried about you. Take a step back into reality for your own sakes, if not for your loved ones. There are pills that can help you through this.

"You interpret a video game differently than me. Clearly this is destroying your life and needs to be remedied by medication."

Ok then.

If you dont mind I'm going to stop responding to you now.

[The Twilight God]

Hrothdane wrote...

Why does Shepard suddenly have a hallucination and then stop having one, and why hallucinate the TIM and Anderson conversation?

If a guy hallucinates does he have to be in that state forever more? What is the standard duration of a hallucination?

Well, the hallucination starts as not too soon after coming thru the conduit as Anderson stats talking to him pretty quick.  

Arian Dynas wrote...

I think that TIM and Anderson were never present, and were in fact, manifestations of Shepard's own personality.

Anderson is the Defender, Shepard's moral compass, his father figure, his Superego, if you will.

The Illusive Man is his other mentor, his shoulder devil, his Id.

Shepard himself is his Ego, which needs to reach a compromise between the Id and Superego.

I'm on the ropes regarding rather or not it's a hallucination or poor implimentation by Bioware. I've used that quote because I haven't really formulated a concrete argument for or against it. When I'm given a theory I don't just come in a bash it. I try to prove it myself first. I went through alot of flycam footage trying to see if the breath scene could have been in the area around the conduit and picking apart details that point at it being a dream. If I can't figure it out then I start asking questions and tearing it apart. I haven't given what Arian Dynas posted my full attention yet so I'm not in a position to properly defend it or rebute it.  

Hrothdane wrote...

So "it wasn't intentional" is the best you can do? The characters are literally standing in a line in regards to the primary light source in the room, as seen by the console's shadow (better seen here). if they were in different parts of the room and facing different directions, you may have something, but they aren't. Wouldn't it be a rather odd coincidence that two characters that are used as symbolic representations of opposing ideologies in the decision chamber happen to have shadows pointing in different directions? Shadows play a prominent role in Shepard's dreams, so giving them significance here would only be consistent.

It has no plot relevence. And look around. That room has tons of light sources all around. Even the the floor, where it dips in before the console, has a ring of lights which makes the shadows around it misplaced. Also the Citadel wards are shining in. 

It's a wonky shadow effect. Games have flaws like this all the time. If I took every glitch and bug to mean something I could probably prove anything. I could demonstrate that the entire series is a dream because of weapons changing during cutscenes. As I said, it simply isn't plot relevent. You can view it as evidence if you wish, but it's circumstantial.

Let me give you an example of what I need to see.

TTG wrote...

Here is the logical deduction:

1. The Crucible docks, but is not doing anything.
2. Shepard leaps into the beam and an energetic aura engulfs his surroundings.
3. The Crucible arms itself and fires.
4. It is thus inferred that Shepard's presence within the contraption's energy cocktail was in accordance with the overall contraption's intended purpose.
5. It can thus be further inferred that the beveled synthesis array, and by association the entire contraption, were constructed with the intent of interacting with the Crucible.
6. It has been confirmed in the very opener of the segment that the contraptions at eye level are NOT a part of the Crucible.
7. The contraptions are built into and plugged into the Citadel.
8. If the contraptions were built by the Citadel's organic inhabitants, per the Crucible's schematics, it would be known that the Citadel was a component beforehand. That is not the case.
9. The Citadel is of Reaper construction.
10. Conclusion: the Reapers built the Contraption.
11. If the Reapers built a contraption that interfaces with the Crucible, the Reaper must have some technical details on the Crucible in order to have the understanding of how it works in order to build a device tailored to interfacing with the Crucible.
12. Given all of the above, the Crucible did not create new possibilities. It merely allowed for premeditated functionalities to be actualized.
13. Given the above fact, it is inferred that they must already be aware of the viability of Synthesis prior to the Crucible docking if, in fact, all the Crucible does is provide power. As the only limiting factor prior to the Crucible docking is power. Everything else was already built and ready to go.

The question emerges: If the Reapers are familiar with the Crucible design, have built a premeditated means to harness the Crucible's energy and ultimately desire for Synthesis to occur; why would they resist its docking? If it truly is a superior solution, why struggle to prevent it? [Why destroy the Crucible if shepard dallies for too long?]

The only reason I can fathom is that it is NOT the ideal solution to the Reapers' hypothetical problem or it does not achieve the goals of whatever true (unexplained) objective they may have. It is simply viewed as preferable to the absence of the Reapers altogether.

I would llike something like this to explain how you came to the conclusion that it's a dream.

All I see is circumstantial evidence, but no foundation to build it upon. This is the foundation of my synthesis analysis post laid out for anyone to pick part. All other evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, hinges upon this deduction which I assert is a "factual" conclusion. I'm not seeing that here. It makes it hard to take dream IT serious when everything put forth is irrelevent to the plot or can have multiple other explainations. It feels like alot of nitpicking irrelevent details. I'm not trying to be mean or bash any individual, but I'm just calling it as I see it.

I'm not saying the shadows can't have meaning, but we first need to establish a concrete basis for even thinking it's a dream before we support it with circumstantial evidence.

Hrothdane wrote...

Furthermore, why do we suddenly get these unreal visions of the future? Even if the language used suggests that none of the scenes have actually happened yet, the slides themselves are obviously structured in a way that people can just assume they happened, as many of them have. Why does Shepard suddenly take a break from reality to envision the future through the eyes of himself/Hackett/EDI?

Shepard doesn't. The CG cutscenes are happpening just like the CG cutscene when the Crucible first enters Sol. In Synthesis Shepard is dead as the ending starts. In Control he's of being a reaper. In Destroy he's in the Citadel somewhere that makes me think it's a collpsed corridor like the one he entered through. EDI is narrating Synthesis. Hackett narrates destroy and Shepard narrates Control. All the endings happen. And then the narrators, for those parts, is narrating their hopes for the future from their own perspective (in two ending it's from an indoctrinated perspective).

I assert the endings play out. I don't know if you've read my thesis or not but basically the cycle continues in Control and everyone is indoctrinated in Synthesis. Destroy = freedom, Synthesis = slavery, Control = destruction

Scroll down to the Conslusion segment and past that I give my take on Control and Synthesis (the control and synthesi summaries aren;t too long)

Hrothdane wrote...

You seem to think we are proving a murder case instead of analyzing a piece of literature. Authorial intent is at play here.

 
If I can approach it "like a murder case" and have the puzzle pieces all fit together then so be it. The author's intent, especially in a video game, will never be reliably ascertained via graphic anomolies because of it's visual nature. You're going outside the plot and nitpicking graphic details as evidence that it isn't happening. That's imperfect = dream sequence. In a video game that's going to be a hard to sell.  

Hrothdane wrote...

If you insist on trying to find deductive proof that one interpretation is true, I don't think you will find it.

 
I've done just that.
 
I welcome anyone to tear my thesis apart. So far it's just been angry people shouting, "This theory suck because it say Destroy is the only way to win", "this only exists to make us feel bad", etc. No one has been able to pick it apart. Just people who agree and people who troll.

Hrothdane wrote...

BioWare doesn't want us to find the truth so easily and set up the story in a way to hinder our attempts. I can only assume they had some purpose in promoting "Speculations for everyone!" to eventually lead up to some kind of reveal, but I don't know anything for certain.

Rather or not Bioware doesn't want us to figure it out or not is irrelevent. I've figure it out. Now they can handwave all they want, but the story they wrote is what my theory depicts regardless of their supposed intent. If someone wants to say I haven;t figured it out I expect a detailed rebuttal vs. "nah, you're wrong just because I say so". Which is the only type of "rebuttal" I've gotten.

[NubXL]

When denial, desperation, nitpicking, and fan fiction intertwine: Indoctrination Theory.

Really, though. Stunning that this continues.

[Rifneno]

The Twilight God wrote...

And there is seeminly human stuff all over the Citadel. What makes these textures so special?

Lazy is lazy. They reused textures.

(Reference is to the infamous 1m1 antennas since I'm not going to quote the pic)

What makes them special is where they're last seen. The outside part of the Citadel in ME1. Legion explains in the Geth Consensus that an organic's mind perceives a virtual world with familiar memories. They piece it together with rag-tag bits of their memories. The Reaper's illusion is far more advanced than the geth's but the principle is the same. Shepard is seeing that 1m1 antenna at these fake parts of the Citadel because it's what his mind associates with those areas. He's seen them around there before.

The antenna is there for the same reason the first room looks like the Collector ship/base, the second like the Shadow Broker's ship, and the third like TIM's room. Yet they weren't reused models, they were completely new ones that looked similar to the old ones. So no, it wasn't lazyiness. Your attempt to blame it all on lazyiness, however, is very lazy.

Lokanaiya wrote...

That's one of the reasons many people in this thread believe it's a trap made by the Reapers.

Aye. I was suspicious about it at first, but when they told us it's the work of countless cycles with each improving on the last's design... that's when I knew it had to be BS. There's no way the Reapers would be so thorough in their cleanup and manage to accidentally leave those plans around over and over and over. It's not possible. And "bad writing" doesn't fit because there's no reason for the writer to add that detail. Except if it's a clue that something's not right.

[Putok]

NubXL wrote...

It was sad that this kept going on after the EC. Now I feel like I need to help you guys at this point. I'm sure some of you have loving families who are worried about you. Take a step back into reality for your own sakes, if not for your loved ones. There are pills that can help you through this.

I only ever played EC, and it was painfully obvious to me that a lot of what was going on after Harbinger's blast was not strictly real.

Some of the stuff I've seen in this thread is reaching quite a bit, but I'm not sure why there's need for such hostility. Two different people can see the same thing and reach different conclusions. I thought there were obviously hallucinations going on, if not full blown dreaming. Others may not have seen it that way.