80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Massa FX]

I'm still holding hope for IT or Dream after playing. Levi was good, IMO. Haven't seen new text in ending yet. To sleep I must go.

[AxStapleton]

jgibson14352 wrote...

he says the reapers perceive shepard as a threat, nothing indicitave of them wanting to indoctrinate him. and yes, the theme was indoctrination, but it was Leviathans indoctrination, not the reapers. there was nothing to suggest shepard was feeling stress, in fact there was nothing at all about repear indoctrination, just leviathans indoctrination. at most the repear form of it is mentioned once. and you could also take away from it that shepards will cant fight indefinately, he can succumb to outside influence. yeah, i didnt mention that and definitely should have. but overall we really didnt get anything from it

*edited to get rid of the pyramid of text*

Reaper Indoctrination is completely based on the Leviathan's indoctrination. What other way would the Catalyst know to put that into Harbinger? Leviathan literally tells you this exact statement. The Leviathan's artifacts work in vaguely the same way as Object Rho did. The more you stay near them, the easier it is for the Leviathan to project its effect onto you.

Of course there's nothing absolutely conclusive, but I knew they weren't going to do that right from the beginning because it would be silly to think that they would do just one DLC and reveal everything straight away in that one DLC. ME2 had multiple story DLC's. ME3 isn't exactly going to be different.

Besides there's more than enough clues for the IT in what we had before Leviathan. If you ask me, that hasn't changed one bit.  

Modifié par AxStapleton, 28 août 2012 - 03:44 .

[demersel]

**** it, I'm going to play some Jagged Allience 2 while it is still not up...

[The Heretic of Time]

I just played the Leviathan DLC myself.


Spoiler
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v

Seems the IT isn't true after all guys. The Leviathan confirmed the Catalyst is real. It's an AI they created.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 28 août 2012 - 03:51 .

[demersel]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I just played the Leviathan DLC myself.


Spoiler
|
v

Seems the IT isn't true after all guys. The Leviathan confirmed the Catalyst is real. It's an AI they created.

The fact that there could be such thing as an AI that controls Reapers, doesn't mean that this AI tells you the truth when you meet it, AND it doesn't even mean that you meet it all for real. 

THat fact that it could really exist doesn't take away from all other facts that point ot the ending being a reaper infused dream. Cause, you know, IT IS DREAMLIKE for starters. 

Modifié par demersel, 28 août 2012 - 03:56 .

[RavenEyry]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
It's an AI they created.

Confirming an AI was involved in the original creation of the reapers doesn't mean anything to me. They had to be created somehow.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I just played the Leviathan DLC myself.


Spoiler
|
v

Seems the IT isn't true after all guys. The Leviathan confirmed the Catalyst is real. It's an AI they created.

I am sorry, but when was that ever an issue with the IT? The questions were always more directed at why does the AI take the form of the kid from Earth, not the AI itself.

Just because the AI is there it changes litterally...say it with me...nothing of all the weird stuff in the ending.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

jgibson14352 wrote...

he says the reapers perceive shepard as a threat, nothing indicitave of them wanting to indoctrinate him. and yes, the theme was indoctrination, but it was Leviathans indoctrination, not the reapers. there was nothing to suggest shepard was feeling stress, in fact there was nothing at all about reaper indoctrination, just leviathans indoctrination. at most the reaper form of it is mentioned once. and you could also take away from it that shepards will cant fight indefinately, he can succumb to outside influence. yeah, i didnt mention that and definitely should have. but overall we really didnt get anything from it

Unless I missed something here...Leviathan is a Reaper...so logically the Indoctrination ways are similar if not identical?

Also in regards to the Reapers wanting to Indoctrinate Shepard, this little quote springs to mind from ME2: "Struggle as you will your mind will be ours" - Object Rho aka Harbinger.

[demersel]

RavenEyry wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
It's an AI they created.

Confirming an AI was involved in the original creation of the reapers doesn't mean anything to me. They had to be created somehow.

Besides, Leviathan confirming it makes a ton of sense! Look at it this way - this is what the Leviathan knows, and this is what the reapers know.   Reapers when they try to indoctrinate you want you to understand and adapt their point of view - make you think like they do. And what do they know? that they were created by some AI for whatever reason - naturally they would show you that. (cause, you know, THEY KNOW NOTHING ELSE. It is all they can think of, when trying to justify their existence.)  - So in the ending in this dream, they mix things that YOU know with what THEY know - and this is really what the ending sequence is - inconsistent dreamlike mishmash of facts that are known to shepard with the facts thats that are known to reapers.  :innocent:

Note, how all the details that make the dream visual - the walls, textures, elements, enviriments, the equipment on the device - even the form of the catalyst - it all comes out of shepards mind. There is nothing new here - it's not like the derelict reaper, or the collector ship/base. It isn't like the shadow broker's ship before shepard visited it - when we first find it we've never seen anything like it. It isn't like vigil on Ilos, or the whole Ilos for that matter - it is a familliar enviroment filled with familiar things and images, derectly taken from previous expierience. 

Modifié par demersel, 28 août 2012 - 04:10 .

[The Heretic of Time]

demersel wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I just played the Leviathan DLC myself.


Spoiler
|
v

Seems the IT isn't true after all guys. The Leviathan confirmed the Catalyst is real. It's an AI they created.

The fact that there could be such thing as an AI that controls Reapers, doesn't mean that this AI tells you the truth when you meet it, AND it doesn't even mean that you meet it all for real. 

THat fact that it could really exist doesn't take away from all other facts that point ot the ending being a reaper infused dream. Cause, you know, IT IS DREAMLIKE for starters. 

The AI does exist. It's confirmed. Or are you now thinking Leviathan lies? Why would Leviathan lie about this.

The AI does not just control the reapers, it created the reapers to find a solution. It has not found the perfect solution yet, so the cycle is it's current solution, until it has found a better solution.

The Leviathans tell you all this. It basically fully confirms the existence of the Catalyst and eveything the Catalyst said.


I think the evidence against the IT is getting stronger than the evidence for the IT. Of course I never was a believer myself, but I think the IT will lose more followers once more people have played the Leviathan DLC. Only the most hardcore IT believers who refuse to give up the IT will stay.


The endings is dreamlike V.S the catalyst and everything he says is confirmed by the leviathan.


Sorry, but I find Leviathans words more convincing than your "the ending is dreamlike".

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 28 août 2012 - 04:09 .

[Big_Boss9]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

he says the reapers perceive shepard as a threat, nothing indicitave of them wanting to indoctrinate him. and yes, the theme was indoctrination, but it was Leviathans indoctrination, not the reapers. there was nothing to suggest shepard was feeling stress, in fact there was nothing at all about reaper indoctrination, just leviathans indoctrination. at most the reaper form of it is mentioned once. and you could also take away from it that shepards will cant fight indefinately, he can succumb to outside influence. yeah, i didnt mention that and definitely should have. but overall we really didnt get anything from it

Unless I missed something here...Leviathan is a Reaper...so logically the Indoctrination ways are similar if not identical?

Also in regards to the Reapers wanting to Indoctrinate Shepard, this little quote springs to mind from ME2: "Struggle as you will your mind will be ours" - Object Rho aka Harbinger.

Leviathan is not a Reaper. It is the organic predecessor that created the Catalyst to solve the problem of its thralls continually making synthetics. It's basically a giant underwater squid that can control minds far more effectively than actual Reapers.

Edit: I should say Leviathans.  There are 3 in the DLC and a hint that there may be more, which brings up a new point. Even if we pick destroy and get rid of the Reapers and starbrat,  we may potentially have to deal with its "parents" next.

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 28 août 2012 - 04:11 .

[The Heretic of Time]

demersel wrote...

 inconsistent dreamlike mishmash of facts that are known to shepard with the facts thats that are known to reapers.  :innocent:

Except these facts are now also known to Shepard prior to the endings after speaking to the Leviathan. So the Catalyst, it's intentions, the reason behind his solution, Shepard knows it all now thanks to Leviathan.

[RavenEyry]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

demersel wrote...

 inconsistent dreamlike mishmash of facts that are known to shepard with the facts thats that are known to reapers.  :innocent:

Except these facts are now also known to Shepard prior to the endings after speaking to the Leviathan. So the Catalyst, it's intentions, the reason behind his solution, Shepard knows it all now thanks to Leviathan.

Making it even more believable to Shepard.

Modifié par RavenEyry, 28 août 2012 - 04:10 .

[AxStapleton]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

he says the reapers perceive shepard as a threat, nothing indicitave of them wanting to indoctrinate him. and yes, the theme was indoctrination, but it was Leviathans indoctrination, not the reapers. there was nothing to suggest shepard was feeling stress, in fact there was nothing at all about reaper indoctrination, just leviathans indoctrination. at most the reaper form of it is mentioned once. and you could also take away from it that shepards will cant fight indefinately, he can succumb to outside influence. yeah, i didnt mention that and definitely should have. but overall we really didnt get anything from it

Unless I missed something here...Leviathan is a Reaper...so logically the Indoctrination ways are similar if not identical?

Also in regards to the Reapers wanting to Indoctrinate Shepard, this little quote springs to mind from ME2: "Struggle as you will your mind will be ours" - Object Rho aka Harbinger.

Not quite, but Harbinger was made out of the race Leviathan comes from. Everything about Harbinger and by extension the rest of the Reapers, is based on Leviathan's race (including indoctrination).  

[demersel]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

demersel wrote...

 inconsistent dreamlike mishmash of facts that are known to shepard with the facts thats that are known to reapers.  :innocent:

Except these facts are now also known to Shepard prior to the endings after speaking to the Leviathan. So the Catalyst, it's intentions, the reason behind his solution, Shepard knows it all now thanks to Leviathan.

And that is exactly my point. 

[Big_Boss9]

In other unsurprising news, Operation Alloy was a success.

[The Heretic of Time]

demersel wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

demersel wrote...

 inconsistent dreamlike mishmash of facts that are known to shepard with the facts thats that are known to reapers.  :innocent:

Except these facts are now also known to Shepard prior to the endings after speaking to the Leviathan. So the Catalyst, it's intentions, the reason behind his solution, Shepard knows it all now thanks to Leviathan.

And that is exactly my point. 

Then I don't understand your point. How does any of this prove IT? If anything, this weakens the IT.

We now know what the Catalyst really is, why it was created, who created it, why it harvests organics and we even know now that his cycle is not his permanent solution, merely a temporary one. Which explains why the Catalyst is so eager to find a new solution once Shepard docked the Crucible. All this heavily supports the literal intepretation of the ending.

[RavenEyry]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
All this heavily supports the literal intepretation of the ending.

To you maybe. You forget that not everyone thinks the same way about everything.

[CoolioThane]

Ok, you believe IT is false why don't you leave? We don't agree with you.

"Stay away from theITthread"

[zigamortis]

Well leviathan came out today. anyone get it?

[The Heretic of Time]

RavenEyry wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
All this heavily supports the literal intepretation of the ending.

To you maybe. You forget that not everyone thinks the same way about everything.

True. But now that the Leviathan DLC cleared so much up and basically strengthens the literal intepretation of the endings, I see no reason why we would still believe in the IT. The literal interpretation seems to make so much more sense now.

[AxStapleton]

zigamortis wrote...

Well leviathan came out today. anyone get it?

Yep.

[zigamortis]

Anything good come from it?

[RavenEyry]

zigamortis wrote...

Anything good come from it?

It's as completely inconclusive as everything else that's ever been declared to prove/disprove IT, which is everything ever.

[zigamortis]

Well that ****ing blows. At least i know not to buy it then.