Modifié par Arashi08, 29 août 2012 - 02:28 .
Jere85 wrote...
I hear these things about Shepard being able to control reapers? Is that just some hocus pocus? Or did i miss something in the DLC?
A mixed-species team of special-operations soldiers have volunteered to covertly deliver Leviathan artifacts behind enemy lines. These attacks aim to make Reaper creatures thralls of the Leviathans. On a small scale, this could cause chaos and disruption. On a large scale--and if given enough time--it could form an army of Reaper creatures dedicated to exterminating their own kind. The team's major limiting factors are the small number of artifacts and the reluctance of Alliance commanders to operate openly with such a potent weapon for fear the Reapers might develop a countermeasure.
Modifié par Big_Boss9, 29 août 2012 - 02:23 .
This slendy is the middle of the three in the top photo
Modifié par CoolioThane, 29 août 2012 - 02:22 .
SwobyJ wrote...
Krogan Warlord wrote...
"The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As
Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into
shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting
orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist
indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time."
Directly from Mass Effect Codex.
Codex
Yet there's also the 'months and years' part too.
I believe that your quote there is in regards to full-intensity of indoctrination signals.
(indoc can be spread through signals, nanides, and more)
Modifié par Krogan Warlord, 29 août 2012 - 02:25 .
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
MassEffected555 wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
MassEffected555 wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
EpyonX3 wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
EpyonX3 wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
Where is the evidence to support Shepard being immune to indoctrination?
1) Three entire games minus the last 10 minutes are Shepard wanting to wipe them out.
2) Leviathan wanting to study is uniqueness, why the reapers see him as a threat.
3) Harbinger wanting to study him, dead or alive.
There is something special about Shepard that reapers and levy wants. I think it's how he can fight the reapers for so long and be successfull.
1)Seems to be a point proving he can be indoctrinated. If he was immune, he wouldnt be tempted by two choices
at the last minute.
2)That can be for any number of reasons having nothing to do with indoctrination immunity. If Leviathan studies Shepard he'll be disapointed in what he finds. Aside from a few cybernetic parts, Shepard is just another
human. It doesnt qualify as evidence.
3)Again that hardly qualifies as evidence.
1) Not really. I only say this because you have the option of not killing them all. What happens if a player picks destroy? Is it that he's not indoctrinated, or is it that the player did what Shepard went there to do?
2) Then why did Levy bother having a conversation? He had Shepard in front of him and was able to enter his mind. He could have just shut him off like the others and did what he wanted. Perhaps it's because he couldn't. If he could study why he couldn't, then maybe he could stop the reapers from indoctrinating anyone the next cycle, making it more difficult for the harvest to proceeed.
3) Harbinger could have been to indoctrinate him each time they had an encounter and failed. Such a thing needs to be studied so that if it happens the next cycle, they can be prepared.
Each side wants Shepard for the same reason but for different purposes. And they both have to do with indoctrination.
I haven't played leviathan yet but I'll get to it by tomorrow sometime I hope. So I'll just respond to 1 and 3
The theory asserts that Shepard is undergoing the process of indoctrination throughout the game. This is not
the same as being completely and fully indoctrinated. Were Shepard completely indoctrinated, there wouldnt be
much of a story left to tell as Shepard would be out there doing the Reapers' bidding.
The ending comes down to you resisting indoctrination and staying commited to destroying the reapers, or
ultimately succumbing to indoctrination and falling in line with their goals. The synthesis choice makes it more
obvious. Thecatalyst claims choosing it will fuse synthetic and organic dna into something new, causing
everyone to reach the pinnacle of evolution. What are reapers? A combination of synthetics and organics.
And what do they already consider themselves? The pinnacle of evolution.
Its an absurd idea for Shepard to be the only one in millions of years to be immune to indoctrination. Shepard
being immune to indoctrination does so much damage to the trilogy and introduces so many plotholes its not
even funny.
I agree about him being immune damaging the series. I also have always stated having Shepard be the ONLY one to ever BE indoctrinated and then break out of it -besides to kill themselves- would also damage the series. That is THE biggest reason I hate the indoc theory, because it breaks the lore.
Not break free. Resist. You're implying he purges indoctrination from his system entirely. That is not what the theory is suggesting. Big difference.
Maybe you can answer this for me then where others have failed.
How exactly does he resist? Is he indoctrinated or isnt he? I never heard of someone being in the process of indoctrination where the are already seeing visions as .... breaking out? Resisting? See to me resisting would mean NOTHING at all happens. I've linked the codex where it says once you start seeing things blah blah you are indoctrinated.
So where exactly is he either not indoctrinated, or where IS he indoctrinated so he can resist, OR (sorry these are real questions) where is it that he feels the indoctrination happening but then he resists?
Certainly. First off many people confuse being fully indoctrinated with undergoing the process of indoctrination. As the codex suggests, slow and patient indoctrination achieves the best result: A thrall that can build up gradually and last for months or years. Below is the excerpt from the codex entry on indoctrination that will help answer your question:
"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."
Shepard is slowly undergoing indoctrination. As the excerpt suggests, those undergoing the process can and will experience the symptoms, as Shepard does. This is completely different than being fully indoctrinated. Were that the case, Shepard would be like Saren, fully in line with the Reapers' goals and hell bent on helping them accomplish them.
Make no mistake. Resist does not mean break free from permanently. It in no way implies nothing happened. You can resist an addition, but are you ever really free from it forever?
The ending is one last battle in Shepard's mind against Reaper indoctrination. Will you resist it and keep to your goal to destroy the reapers? Or will you give in and fall in line with the reapers' goals. You either resist indoctrination, or you give into it.
And I say you because it is as much your battle against indoctrination as it is Shepard's. Have you ever looked at the decision chamber's layout and wondered why are the choices colored renegade red and paragon blue? When has Shepard ever associated morale decisions with colors? He has never, but you have. With the only correct choice put in such a bad light, it is no wonder many fail to resist.
Modifié par MassEffected555, 29 août 2012 - 02:27 .
MassEffected555 wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
MassEffected555 wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
MassEffected555 wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
EpyonX3 wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
EpyonX3 wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
Where is the evidence to support Shepard being immune to indoctrination?
1) Three entire games minus the last 10 minutes are Shepard wanting to wipe them out.
2) Leviathan wanting to study is uniqueness, why the reapers see him as a threat.
3) Harbinger wanting to study him, dead or alive.
There is something special about Shepard that reapers and levy wants. I think it's how he can fight the reapers for so long and be successfull.
1)Seems to be a point proving he can be indoctrinated. If he was immune, he wouldnt be tempted by two choices
at the last minute.
2)That can be for any number of reasons having nothing to do with indoctrination immunity. If Leviathan studies Shepard he'll be disapointed in what he finds. Aside from a few cybernetic parts, Shepard is just another
human. It doesnt qualify as evidence.
3)Again that hardly qualifies as evidence.
1) Not really. I only say this because you have the option of not killing them all. What happens if a player picks destroy? Is it that he's not indoctrinated, or is it that the player did what Shepard went there to do?
2) Then why did Levy bother having a conversation? He had Shepard in front of him and was able to enter his mind. He could have just shut him off like the others and did what he wanted. Perhaps it's because he couldn't. If he could study why he couldn't, then maybe he could stop the reapers from indoctrinating anyone the next cycle, making it more difficult for the harvest to proceeed.
3) Harbinger could have been to indoctrinate him each time they had an encounter and failed. Such a thing needs to be studied so that if it happens the next cycle, they can be prepared.
Each side wants Shepard for the same reason but for different purposes. And they both have to do with indoctrination.
I haven't played leviathan yet but I'll get to it by tomorrow sometime I hope. So I'll just respond to 1 and 3
The theory asserts that Shepard is undergoing the process of indoctrination throughout the game. This is not
the same as being completely and fully indoctrinated. Were Shepard completely indoctrinated, there wouldnt be
much of a story left to tell as Shepard would be out there doing the Reapers' bidding.
The ending comes down to you resisting indoctrination and staying commited to destroying the reapers, or
ultimately succumbing to indoctrination and falling in line with their goals. The synthesis choice makes it more
obvious. Thecatalyst claims choosing it will fuse synthetic and organic dna into something new, causing
everyone to reach the pinnacle of evolution. What are reapers? A combination of synthetics and organics.
And what do they already consider themselves? The pinnacle of evolution.
Its an absurd idea for Shepard to be the only one in millions of years to be immune to indoctrination. Shepard
being immune to indoctrination does so much damage to the trilogy and introduces so many plotholes its not
even funny.
I agree about him being immune damaging the series. I also have always stated having Shepard be the ONLY one to ever BE indoctrinated and then break out of it -besides to kill themselves- would also damage the series. That is THE biggest reason I hate the indoc theory, because it breaks the lore.
Not break free. Resist. You're implying he purges indoctrination from his system entirely. That is not what the theory is suggesting. Big difference.
Maybe you can answer this for me then where others have failed.
How exactly does he resist? Is he indoctrinated or isnt he? I never heard of someone being in the process of indoctrination where the are already seeing visions as .... breaking out? Resisting? See to me resisting would mean NOTHING at all happens. I've linked the codex where it says once you start seeing things blah blah you are indoctrinated.
So where exactly is he either not indoctrinated, or where IS he indoctrinated so he can resist, OR (sorry these are real questions) where is it that he feels the indoctrination happening but then he resists?
Certainly. First off many people confuse being fully indoctrinated with undergoing the process of indoctrination. As the codex suggests, slow and patient indoctrination achieves the best result: A thrall that can build up gradually and last for months or years. Below is the excerpt from the codex entry on indoctrination that will help answer your question:
"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."
Shepard is slowly undergoing indoctrination. As the excerpt suggests, those undergoing the process can and will experience the symptoms, as Shepard does. This is completely different than being fully indoctrinated. Were that the case, Shepard would be like Saren, fully in line with the Reapers' goals and hell bent on helping them accomplish them.
Make no mistake. Resist does not mean break free from permanently. It in no way implies nothing happened. You can resist an addition, but are you ever really free from it forever?
The ending is one last battle in Shepard's mind against Reaper indoctrination. Will you resist it and keep to your goal to destroy the reapers? Or will you give in and fall in line with the reapers' goals. You either resist indoctrination, or you give into it.
And I say you because it is as much your battle against indoctrination as it is Shepard's. Have you ever looked at the decision chamber's layout and wondered why are the choices colored renegade red and paragon blue? When has Shepard ever associated morale decisions with colors? He has never, but you have. With the only correct choice put in such a bad light, it is no wonder many fail to resist.
OK I hear you and that's the first time someone explained it that well to me, thank you.
Now, and this is my opinion, but the goal is to STOP the reapers right? At any cost. Kill them is never stated, its STOP them. I never pick control, but I should to see it. I have picked Synthesis and Destroy (and refuse just to see it). To me killing an entire species, the Geth (even though I as a real human don't believe a machine can ever be "alive") as wrong so I picked syntheses my first playthrough. Renegade picked Destroy because, well, I already killed the Geth lol.
So I guess what I am saying is, are ANY of the endings the wrong choice besides refuse? Every single ending - minus refuse - has Shepard doing exactly what he wanted to do, stop the Reaper threat. So why is Destroy the only good ending. Or better yet, why is destroy the only RIGHT ending? That's what bothers people I think. I know it kind of pissed me off being told I chose the "wrong" ending when I actually sat there for a good 5 minutes thinking about them and based my first choice (synthesis) off my own moral standings. Reapers are no longer a threat, everyone lives and evolves and ...... well my crew gets stuck on some random planet. Good times.
Arashi08 wrote...
Didn't Leviathan say the "intelligence" it created became the first Reaper aka Harbinger?
Arashi08 wrote...
Didn't Leviathan say the "intelligence" it created became the first Reaper aka Harbinger?
Krogan Warlord wrote...
And rapid Indoctrination makes the victim highly unstable.Didn't see Shepard suffer any side-effects from Indoctrination.The Eyes in the ending is just Shepards cybernetic implants as his skin being melted.The Catalyst appears as a child because he has been monitoring Shepard.And he took a form he could comprehend.
Auralius Carolus wrote...
Krogan Warlord wrote...
And rapid Indoctrination makes the victim highly unstable.Didn't see Shepard suffer any side-effects from Indoctrination.The Eyes in the ending is just Shepards cybernetic implants as his skin being melted.The Catalyst appears as a child because he has been monitoring Shepard.And he took a form he could comprehend.
Shepard, if initially Indoctrinated with Object Rho, would have had around 6 months to "incubate". "Rapid" indoctrination would require less than a few weeks, based on what evidence is available.
Unless Leviathan changed the effects of Control and Synth, those ARE NOT his implants. There is a distinct alteration to color and pattern.
The catalyst's form suggests a clear awareness of Shepards mind; as you said, he's likely been monitored.
Modifié par Krogan Warlord, 29 août 2012 - 02:37 .
Gwyphon wrote...
I think James Vega is indoctrinated by the reapers. He came out of freaking no where to help you trace the Leviathan so the reapers could follow... Huh.
Hah, i met that ladder.Gwyphon wrote...
Probably slow to this but I got stuck on the damn glitched ladder for half an hour...
Modifié par Jere85, 29 août 2012 - 02:51 .
Anyways, after reading some of the posts here, I just wanted to say that it's rather early to declare that this proved/disproved IT. It's still fresh in our minds, and it's rather hard to accurately gauge the impact of things like this immediately after seeing/playing through it. Remember EC and how it caused many ITers to think IT had been disproven? And how, after looking at it some more later, we found out that it actually strengthened IT a great deal?
Lokanaiya wrote...
Alright, I just finished the DLC, and I personally though it was great. It was very spooky and ominous, especially that scene where the first leviathan rose out of the pit. And when they influenced the Reaper to crash into the water.... wow. Chilling.
Secondly... what's with all the feeding of the trolls? Haven't we learned better than that by now? And yes, I called them trolls, because they came on this thread solely to insist that we're delusional, Levithan OBVIOUSLY completely destroyed IT, and oh yeah, that piece of really old evidence makes no sense and we should totally argue about that instead of discussing Leviathan.
Seriously? Can we stop talking about how Shepard is immune to indoctrination or how he never shows any signs of it? AGAIN?!?
On a different note, has anyone been able to go through the endings again with the Leviathan and see all the changes?
Modifié par Krogan Warlord, 29 août 2012 - 03:07 .
This...Lokanaiya wrote...
On a different note, has anyone been able to go through the endings again with the Leviathan and see all the changes?
I don't know...maybe it was his wording coupled with barely being able to hear him and not using subtitles, but it sounded to me like the Leviathans created an intelligence and it harvested them and became the first Reaper, but again, maybe I was confused by the booming voice and wording lol.EpyonX3 wrote...
Arashi08 wrote...
Didn't Leviathan say the "intelligence" it created became the first Reaper aka Harbinger?
No the intelligence wasn't Harbinger, the first reaper it created was Harbinger.
EpyonX3 wrote...
Gwyphon wrote...
I think James Vega is indoctrinated by the reapers. He came out of freaking no where to help you trace the Leviathan so the reapers could follow... Huh.
I don't think so. However, he did get bitten by the husk head, it may have started there. The medigel didn't work!
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