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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#15251
demersel

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Andromidius wrote...

I just watched/listened to the new dialogue with Starbinger.

My brain is oozing out of my ears. The stupid is getting stronger with that script.

Shepard: "Well the Leviathans are part of this war now!"
Starbinger: "Good, we welcome their involvement."

*brainmeltdown*

Seriously, someone at Bioware HAS to know they are yanking our chain here. The dialogue is just so jenky and out of place.


For REAL? "Good, we welcome their involvement" ????

Noooo it can't be SO easy! 
Really you're not making this up??


And it is not stupid. It's pretty neat actually. 

The ending is a reaper infuse dream - why else would the catalyst say that? If he was really the catalyst, and the choice of the fate of the galaxy was about to be made - he would have said - "it doesn't matter now" or something like it. 
"Good, we welcome their involvement" - implies that the war is FAR from over. 

Modifié par demersel, 29 août 2012 - 05:31 .


#15252
Andromidius

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Bit in the middle looks like an eye, too. The sort ancient Egyptians liked to draw/carve in their artwork.

And dem Leviathans sure do like to watch things.

#15253
Andromidius

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demersel wrote...

For REAL? "Good, we welcome their involvement" ????

Noooo it can't be SO easy! 
Really you're not making this up??




6:38

"I welcome their involvement.  I am only facilitating their request."

I'm not kidding.  There's more nonsense in there too, but that's the worst bit.

#15254
The Twilight God

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lex0r11 wrote...

Posted Image


That's not even a husk head... it's a Cerberus soldier head.Posted Image

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 05:34 .


#15255
estebanus

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The Twilight God wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Posted Image


That's not even a husk head... it's a Cerberus soldier head.Posted Image

Regardless, that thing is an awesome pet!

#15256
Hrothdane

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Andromidius wrote...

I just watched/listened to the new dialogue with Starbinger.

My brain is oozing out of my ears. The stupid is getting stronger with that script.

Shepard: "Well the Leviathans are part of this war now!"
Starbinger: "Good, we welcome their involvement."

*brainmeltdown*

Seriously, someone at Bioware HAS to know they are yanking our chain here. The dialogue is just so jenky and out of place.


This is why I think that BioWare is intentionally making Starbinger look crazy and untrustworthy. They could easily come up with a plot contrivance or random last-second exposition that supports him. If they truly are so willing to throw away established lore to prop up Starbinger as suggested by a literal interpretation, then why not go further? Heck, BioWare could spend 10 minutes reading the synthesis support thread and come up with better arguements.

#15257
byne

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"So Leviathan can have Bryson killed, it can take over this colony, and use them as puppets?

Huh."


Thats like the lamest reaction to any kind of revelation ever, Shepard.

#15258
Guest_magnetite_*

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I did notice a lot of those indoctrination symbols with the DLC:

Posted Image

#15259
Hrothdane

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magnetite wrote...

I did notice a lot of those indoctrination symbols with the DLC:

Posted Image


I see those things everywhere now. You may have already figured this out, but I noticed awhile ago when I played Arrival that you never see those signs anywhere until after you get zapped by Object Rho.

#15260
Guest_magnetite_*

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About the husk head. That was one of my favorite parts of the new area on the Citadel. I couldn't stop messing with it. It sits in my cabin now.

I see those things everywhere now. You may have already figured this
out, but I noticed awhile ago when I played Arrival that you never see
those signs anywhere until after you get zapped by Object Rho.


I must have missed that.

Modifié par magnetite, 29 août 2012 - 05:59 .


#15261
The Twilight God

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estebanus wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Posted Image


That's not even a husk head... it's a Cerberus soldier head.Posted Image


Regardless, that thing is an awesome pet!


The Illusive Man is still watching your sexy time...

...and now Kai Leng is over his shoulder watching with a bowl of somebody elses cereal.

#15262
Revan87

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So here are some things I noticed while playing leviathan DLC:
1. Leviathan tells you that they created an AI to bring balance between organic and synthetic. But the catalyst is clearly insulted when Shepard talks of him as an AI. ("As much as you are just an animal") So the catalyst is not an AI or just strange porgrammed...
2. Leviathan has the ability to manipulate shepards mind and let him experience a dream like state. Indoctrination anyone?
3. Is it just me or seemed it a bit strange that Vega appeared out of the nowhere? I mean I liked it but still it feels strange somehow.
4. Again, is it just me or does leviathan know way more about the crucible than he is actualy telling us?
5. How many Leviathans are still out there? Are they still a threat?
6. Synthesis is clearly now the options the reapers/catalyst prefer. The only question here is, who should to be trusted, the reapers, the Leviathan(s) or none of them?

Please forgive my bad english!

#15263
Gwyphon

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Revan87 wrote...

So here are some things I noticed while playing leviathan DLC:
1. Leviathan tells you that they created an AI to bring balance between organic and synthetic. But the catalyst is clearly insulted when Shepard talks of him as an AI. ("As much as you are just an animal") So the catalyst is not an AI or just strange porgrammed...
2. Leviathan has the ability to manipulate shepards mind and let him experience a dream like state. Indoctrination anyone?
3. Is it just me or seemed it a bit strange that Vega appeared out of the nowhere? I mean I liked it but still it feels strange somehow.
4. Again, is it just me or does leviathan know way more about the crucible than he is actualy telling us?
5. How many Leviathans are still out there? Are they still a threat?
6. Synthesis is clearly now the options the reapers/catalyst prefer. The only question here is, who should to be trusted, the reapers, the Leviathan(s) or none of them?

Please forgive my bad english!


Yeah I know! I literally didn't see him until I ran into him. It's why I think he's indoctrinated. He helps Shepard track the Leviathan and is present when you discover the system it's in, then when you arrive the reapers COINCIDENTALLY show up just after you.

I call bull ****. :whistle:

#15264
alpharougewarx

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wait so if the Leviathan can do all of that. why not control Shepherd. unless hes resisting him. or the Leviathan is controlling him already

#15265
The Twilight God

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Hrothdane wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I just watched/listened to the new dialogue with Starbinger.

My brain is oozing out of my ears. The stupid is getting stronger with that script.

Shepard: "Well the Leviathans are part of this war now!"
Starbinger: "Good, we welcome their involvement."

*brainmeltdown*

Seriously, someone at Bioware HAS to know they are yanking our chain here. The dialogue is just so jenky and out of place.


This is why I think that BioWare is intentionally making Starbinger look crazy and untrustworthy. They could easily come up with a plot contrivance or random last-second exposition that supports him. If they truly are so willing to throw away established lore to prop up Starbinger as suggested by a literal interpretation, then why not go further? Heck, BioWare could spend 10 minutes reading the synthesis support thread and come up with better arguements.


It uses a mix of outright lies, lies of ommission, half-truths and truths.

The Star Child's entire opening conversation is meant to accomplish four things:
1. To establish itself as vital to Shepard's success by deceiving Shepard into believing it is the Catalyst.
2. To establish itself as a non-threatening, unbiased, VI-like, neutral party unmotivated by self-interest.
3. To de-demonize the reapers and present them as mere tools who shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.
4. To shift the focus from "Destroying the Reapers" to "Assisting the Star Child with his galactic social studies assignment".

The Leviathan involvement would be a good thing in their eyes as they could finish what they started. If the Leviathans could actually challenge the entire Reaper Collective they would have. If the L:eviathans actually joined the fight and the fight continued beyond the docking chamber the Leviathans are as good as dead. They essentially state this themselves: "You bring death". Starbinger essentially says "Bring em on" in a subtle manner. What are people expecting it to say? Is it supposed to break character, go back to the Harbinger voice and shake in fear of the mighty leviathans whose ass it kicked at the dawn of time and who have been hiding from it for the past few billion years?

Starbinger is not worried about a direct confrontation with the Leviathans. It is worried about Shepard: The only being ever to have it by the balls.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 06:57 .


#15266
Hrothdane

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The Twilight God wrote...

estebanus wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Posted Image


That's not even a husk head... it's a Cerberus soldier head.Posted Image


Regardless, that thing is an awesome pet!


The Illusive Man is still watching your sexy time...

...and now Kai Leng is over his shoulder watching with a bowl of somebody elses cereal.


That could get REALLY awkward if you are playing a gay male Shepard.

Somewhere on the internet, a fangirl has already written a fanfic about this.

#15267
Hrothdane

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The Twilight God wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I just watched/listened to the new dialogue with Starbinger.

My brain is oozing out of my ears. The stupid is getting stronger with that script.

Shepard: "Well the Leviathans are part of this war now!"
Starbinger: "Good, we welcome their involvement."

*brainmeltdown*

Seriously, someone at Bioware HAS to know they are yanking our chain here. The dialogue is just so jenky and out of place.


This is why I think that BioWare is intentionally making Starbinger look crazy and untrustworthy. They could easily come up with a plot contrivance or random last-second exposition that supports him. If they truly are so willing to throw away established lore to prop up Starbinger as suggested by a literal interpretation, then why not go further? Heck, BioWare could spend 10 minutes reading the synthesis support thread and come up with better arguements.


It uses a mix of outright lies, lies of ommission, half-truths and truths.

The Star Child's entire opening conversation is meant to accomplish four things:
1. To establish itself as vital to Shepard's success by deceiving Shepard into believing it is the Catalyst.
2. To establish itself as a non-threatening, unbiased, VI-like, neutral party unmotivated by self-interest.
3. To de-demonize the reapers and present them as mere tools who shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.
4. To shift the focus from "Destroying the Reapers" to "Assisting the Star Child with his galactic social studies assignment".

Many people's veiw of mass effect lore has been perverted by a single unsubstantiated assumption: That the Catalyst is being 100% completely honest. What makes the claims of the "Reaper Ambassador" in the last 10 minutes more valid than the last 119 hours and 50 minutes? What makes 0.01 of a game more valid than the previous 2.99 games worth of lore indicating otherwise? Does anyone honestly believe Sovereign and Harbinger’s attitudes would be the best approach to take if the Reapers want to survive this encounter? Does anyone think the Reapers are stupid enough to think they could ever convince anyone not fully under their power to not Destroy them if they were as brutally honest as they have been when they believed themselves unassailable? Think about it. They are trying to indoctrinate Shepard and openly presenting themselves as the Reapers we have come to know would not allow for the player to fall for the deception.

The Leviathan involvement would be a good thing in their eyes as they could finish what they started. If the Leviathans could actually challenge the entire Reaper Collective they would have. If the L:eviathans actually joined the fight and the fight continued beyond the docking chamber the Leviathans are as good as dead. Starbinger essentially says "Bring em on" in a subtle manner. What are people expecting it to say? Is it supposed to break character, go back to the Harbinger voice and shake in fear of the mighty leviathans whose ass it kicked at the dawn of time and who have been hiding from it for the past few billion years?

Starbinger is not worried about a direct confrontation with the Leviathans. It is worried about Shepard: The only being ever to have it by the balls.


It does certainly say something about the Leviathans' ability to fight Starbinger that even though they can apparently shut off a Sovereign-class Reaper with little effort, they never go anywhere near a battlefield personally.

Speaking of Starbinger's manipulation, why do you think he tells you the actual way to destroy the Reapers rather than making something up or saying that jumping into the beam or grabbing the rods will activate the destroy mechanism? Shepard has no way to confirm his information without making a choice, and if Shepard makes no choice, Starbinger still wins. He could easily have removed all chance of losing, but he doesn't.

#15268
SauliusL

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The Twilight God wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I just watched/listened to the new dialogue with Starbinger.

My brain is oozing out of my ears. The stupid is getting stronger with that script.

Shepard: "Well the Leviathans are part of this war now!"
Starbinger: "Good, we welcome their involvement."

*brainmeltdown*

Seriously, someone at Bioware HAS to know they are yanking our chain here. The dialogue is just so jenky and out of place.


This is why I think that BioWare is intentionally making Starbinger look crazy and untrustworthy. They could easily come up with a plot contrivance or random last-second exposition that supports him. If they truly are so willing to throw away established lore to prop up Starbinger as suggested by a literal interpretation, then why not go further? Heck, BioWare could spend 10 minutes reading the synthesis support thread and come up with better arguements.


It uses a mix of outright lies, lies of ommission, half-truths and truths.

The Star Child's entire opening conversation is meant to accomplish four things:
1. To establish itself as vital to Shepard's success by deceiving Shepard into believing it is the Catalyst.
2. To establish itself as a non-threatening, unbiased, VI-like, neutral party unmotivated by self-interest.
3. To de-demonize the reapers and present them as mere tools who shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.
4. To shift the focus from "Destroying the Reapers" to "Assisting the Star Child with his galactic social studies assignment".

The Leviathan involvement would be a good thing in their eyes as they could finish what they started. If the Leviathans could actually challenge the entire Reaper Collective they would have. If the L:eviathans actually joined the fight and the fight continued beyond the docking chamber the Leviathans are as good as dead. They essentially state this themselves: "You bring death". Starbinger essentially says "Bring em on" in a subtle manner. What are people expecting it to say? Is it supposed to break character, go back to the Harbinger voice and shake in fear of the mighty leviathans whose ass it kicked at the dawn of time and who have been hiding from it for the past few billion years?

Starbinger is not worried about a direct confrontation with the Leviathans. It is worried about Shepard: The only being ever to have it by the balls.


What a fine comment!

#15269
gunslinger_ruiz

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Ok, finished Leviathan DLC, haven't seen the endings with it yet though, working towards it.

Quick review:
The missions: pretty awesome
The music: freakin awesome
Finding the pre-order weapons: awesome
New dialogue: also awesome
Talking with "Leviathan": freakin awesome

Final verdict for the DLC: Pretty Freakin Awesome, definitely worth my money and time.

#15270
The Twilight God

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Hrothdane wrote...

Speaking of Starbinger's manipulation, why do you think he tells you the actual way to destroy the Reapers rather than making something up or saying that jumping into the beam or grabbing the rods will activate the destroy mechanism? Shepard has no way to confirm his information without making a choice, and if Shepard makes no choice, Starbinger still wins. He could easily have removed all chance of losing, but he doesn't.


This is covered in the first post of my thesis. Why it tells you how to stop the Reapers is the primary subject matter when I discuss the Destroy option.

The Twilight God wrote...

Option 1: Destroy the Reapers

"It is now in your power to destroy us".

The Catalyst is not a fool. It is wise to put this option on the table first as it is going to be the first and only thing on Shepard’s mind. In fact, it is the very first inquiry Shepard makes after introductions are made asking, “I need to stop the Reapers. Do you know how I can do that?” The Catalyst knows that it has to tackle the most obvious threat to its continuation before it can even bother to introduce its own suggestions. If it tried to tiptoe around the Destroy option it would garner suspicion and its motivations would be immediately brought into question. The Catalyst's only hope is to maintain the illusion of impartiality and otherwise convince Shepard that its options are simply more beneficial. But at the same time it cannot portray Destroy too harshly or it risks appearing biased right from the start. The Catalyst has to play it safe and smart. Although in the throes of an indoctrination attempt, Shepard is not indoctrinated; but he is highly susceptible to suggestion.

It immediately begins to paint a dire picture. The negativity associated with Destroy will form the baseline for making its upcoming options more palatable. The Catalyst says, "But be warned: others will be destroyed as well. The crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic.” It further adds, “Technology you rely on will be affected.” Shepard will have to sacrifice his friend, EDI, and his new Geth allies; Negating his work in securing a peace with the Quarians and discarding the sacrifice of his friend Legion. Shepard has to destroy that which flies in the face of the Catalyst's assertions about organic-synthetic relations.

Oh, and don't forget that "The Chaos" will return. Can't have that, right? Shepard is forced to accept this assertion. However, this is the least of Shepard's trust problems as will be covered in later segments of this thesis. Shepard's lethargic tendency to accept the Catalyst's assertions actually make sense in an indoctrination scenario.

This entire exchange is intended to make Shepard hesitate and second guess his objective. The Catalyst also notes that Shepard’s body contains synthetic parts to imply that the Crucible will target him as well. It wishes to remove self preservation as a factor in Shepard's decision. Not only that, but it brings into question rather or not the Crucible may hurt or kill multitudes of innocent people who depend on synthetic technology for their survival. In this way Shepard's decision is weighed solely on the negatives associated with destroying the Reapers verses the apparent lack of negatives (in comparison) associated with the Catalyst's upcoming suggestions.

The Crucible is made out to be the equivalent of a sawed-off shotgun being used to create an incision for open eye surgery. Now that the Reapers have soured the taste of using the Crucible for its intended purpose they offer their own suggestions. Shepard has not been fully indoctrinated, but he is susceptible to suggestions. Shepard is clearly not all there and the Catalyst is playing on that fact.



1. Shepard is not retarded. Suiciding himself because the Reapers says so is not the action of a non-indoctrinated. 
2. Shepard is capable of using the resources at his disposal.
3. Shepard can confirm rather or not shooting the power junction will allow the Crucible to arm. He cannot confirm rather or not commiting suicide will do anything at all as he would be dead. Control and Synthesis require complete and absolute blind fiath in the Reapers. Enough faith to kill oneself to further the Reapers agenda. This is a clear sign of indoctination. As I've said many times, if Shepard is not indoctrinated when he jumps into the chasm then neither was Dr. Kenson.

The Crucible is not arming by him simply standing around and looking at it. Destroying something that is not part of the Crucible seems more reasonable than properly interact with something that is not part of the Crucible to get the Crucible to arm. This is highly contextual, based on Shepard's situation and surroundings. (i.e. use a reaper device or shoot a reaper device)

Shepard has no reason to walk up to the power junction as he has a ranged weapon. That is a player requirement to enact the cinematic that the developer desired. If Starbinger is lying about the power junction, Shepard is still alive to pursue alternatives akin to #2.  The Kid is shown to be a deceiver and its credibility is shot. Under these circumstances its attempts at subtle indoctrination will not succeed by guile alone. And there isn't enough time to indoctrinate Shepard in a more blunt fashion. It tried before while TIM held him in place with dominate and failed. This is one of the main reasons I think TIM and Anderson were there. Shepard was held in place, however his intentions never wavered. The capability to simply stop a person's motor functions while they remain conscious, aware and non-indoctrinated is not supported in the lore. It's not something the Reapers can do and if they can, I doubt shooting a hallucination would break it.

Starbinger knows Shepard has him by the balls. It's best bet is to subtlely convince Shepard that it has no self-motivation or sense fo self preservation and present some truths, half-truths and lies in order to convince him that the other two options are preferable to Destroying the Reapers. To indoctrinated him into doing what they want him to do.
  

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 08:02 .


#15271
Gwyphon

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Playing it, it was amazing, immersive and intriguing. Unfortunately after it was done, it seemed like it really came to nothing. Seemed PRETTY MAJOR in the scheme of things, but it's just kind of dropped, and it's off to fight incompetent reapers again...

#15272
Hrothdane

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The Twilight God wrote...
  


Thank you.

Sorry to make you repost it. I haven't read your thesis in detail since around when you first posted it, and I forgot the answer to my question was already there.

#15273
RavenEyry

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Does Leviathan tell you what the reapers were up to on Earth? Because that's a major question that isn't discussed much.
I know they attacked Earth with the bulk of their forces because Shepard has annoyed them or something, but why the build-up in London, and why move the citadel there?

#15274
SauliusL

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RavenEyry wrote...

Does Leviathan tell you what the reapers were up to on Earth? Because that's a major question that isn't discussed much.
I know they attacked Earth with the bulk of their forces because Shepard has annoyed them or something, but why the build-up in London, and why move the citadel there?


Levi mentions something that humans are different, and Shepard is a biggest  anomaly in all cycles since the beggining. But he has a doubt if it's enough.

#15275
The Twilight God

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Hrothdane wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
  


Thank you.

Sorry to make you repost it. I haven't read your thesis in detail since around when you first posted it, and I forgot the answer to my question was already there.


It's gone through some pretty major changes since I first posted it.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 08:40 .