80611 réponses à ce sujet

[MaximizedAction]

Andromidius wrote...
*snip*
Shepard: "Well the Leviathans are part of this war now!"
Starbinger: "Good, we welcome their involvement."

*snip*

Passive aggressive ****.

I came to he following conclusion: Bioware explaining the Reapers and/or the Guardian/AI in a time of war with the Reapers is simply not possible without there being a possibility that the explainee is indoctrinated and thus the explaination being rendered unlegit.

I welcome this. That way I can legitimally remain in the wondeful world of headcannon and denial where the Guardian/AI is either a lying bastard OR it simply does not matter why the Reapers are reaping.

[The Twilight God]

RavenEyry wrote...

Does Leviathan tell you what the reapers were up to on Earth? Because that's a major question that isn't discussed much.
I know they attacked Earth with the bulk of their forces because Shepard has annoyed them or something, but why the build-up in London, and why move the citadel there?

The Citadel is a Reaper nursery.

The Collector Base was just a substitute. That is why Anderson says it reminds him of the Collector Base reports due to all the bodies laying around and the tubes pumping human goo everywhere. If you look down when on that bridge leading to the console room there is a "canal" of liquified humanity. So London was the staging ground to load all the collected goo from the harvester ships, captives and dead bodies to the Citadel to start work on the Human Reaper.

And I assume after the Reaper was done all the Reapers would position themselves around the globe and Earth would be bombarded like all those planets you'd investigate while flying around in past games. At which point it would then go to another homeworld like Thessia, make an asari reaper (or at least get enough asari goo to finish one), bombard the planet and then move to the next.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 08:41 .

[MaximizedAction]

SauliusL wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Does Leviathan tell you what the reapers were up to on Earth? Because that's a major question that isn't discussed much.
I know they attacked Earth with the bulk of their forces because Shepard has annoyed them or something, but why the build-up in London, and why move the citadel there?

Levi mentions something that humans are different, and Shepard is a biggest  anomaly in all cycles since the beggining. But he has a doubt if it's enough.

Wait, doesn't Leviathan just say that he's an anomaly? That doesn't mean that he's the biggest anomaly.

[Leonia]

I'm interested in hearing what some of the rest of have to say, namely what Otter comes up with for the Overlay theory because there seems to be oodles of new stuff to analyse. The only thing the DLC proved for sure is that we haven't seen all the puzzle pieces, it didn't tell us anything all that new but gave us a new a perspective to see evidence through.

[The Twilight God]

Post Leviathan reply to people claiming it somehow proves a non-indoctrinated ending (whichis absurd as it doesn't change the endings)

Rather or not Starbinger is a Reaper(s) or a distinct entity is not proven in the Leviathan DLC. Only the existence of "the intellegence" is mentioned by the Leviathans. And it never says, "Oh and by the way it's in the Citadel". Rather or not that "intelligence" actually exists on the Citadel and is the thing Shepard converses with is another story. The mass relays were created after the advent of the Reapers, not before. And the Citadel is definitely not tailored to facilitate giant cuttelfish. It's the relay hub and a reaper nursery. So in actually it adds another level of iffiness to the Kid's claim to "live there" since it existed before the mass relay network, and presumably the Citadel, existed. Leviathan's race presumably used a more Star Wars type FTL.

"The Intelligence" can be a form of quantum software (like a super geth) existing within all Reapers or any hardware it pleases, on the Leviathan homeworld away from any relays or not even be "in the field" anymore. It could be out in darkspace at the location where the Citadel relay would connect to (wherever the Reapers would wait in darkspace). It's all speculative at this point.

Is "The Intelligence" doing what the Leviathans said it's doing. Yes. Does that mean Synthesis is actually the ideal solution? No. Does it mean Control is now a rational choice? No. As I said before the DLC came out it doesn't really affect IT that much and that hasn't changed after seeing the DLC. And what little does affect it is in favor of my veiws.

Some Leviathan quotes:

"No reason given when they turned against us. Only slaughter." Oh, so you didn't like that outcome? Wasn't expecting that? Reasonable response.

"There was no mistake. It still serves it's purpose." Huh? So you're OK with them doing what they did and continue to do?

"They are the enemy" But.. w-what?!?! Make up you mind!!! They either did bad or did good. They f'ed up or everything is proceeding as planned.

So is the middle comment just a result of pride? Not willing to admit that they screwed up due to a ridiculously overblown ego? Hmm? Something to think about.

Let's continue...

"The intelligence has one purpose: to preserve all life. That purpose is not being fullfilled." So IS it serving it's purpose or NOT? Make up your mind, Squidward...


"Until the Intelligence find what it is looking for the harvest will conitinue" It always struck me as odd that an organic race younger and technologically inferior than the Reapers could make a device (the crucible) that the Reapers were encapable of making themselves. Another reason to cast doubt on synthesis being ideal seeing as they should have made their own battery and just tossed someone in, but now it makes synthesis even worse.

Well, at the end of Synthesis it still hasn't found what it's looking for. I've established in my thesis that synthesis canot be the Reapers ideal solution. I saw synthesis as simply preferrable to annihilation either good or bad (depending on the player), an end to free will as we know it with everyone presumed to survive, but even synthesis now seems as if it will end in a harvest and the remaining people will become the collectors of the next cycle. Or the Reapers simply make another Crucible and de-synthesize the galaxy after they finish making new reapers. Speculation for everyone.

I'm actually wondering if the Leviathans made the Crucible. When I look over the conversation It never says they didn't and it never states who did. It just says it has watched "lesser races" try to build it and none have succeeded. It even drops eye contact with Shepard as if unconfortable with the subject. Typically a sign of dishonesty. That fact that it is supposed to kill all synthetics indiscriminately and disable the relays may be for the Leviathan's benefit as they aparently didn't use mass relays to get around and can't control synthetics. This puts them in a superior position to reclaim their lost glory as they can still traverse the galaxy at will while everyone else is cut off, no organic force can challenge them head on and no synthetics are left to complicate their takeover. Just something to think about.

But even if this was the case and it was intended to interact with the Kid, it is still made to Destroy. Synthesis and Control? Those options don't benefit the Leviathans. And if the Crucible was designed with the intelligence in mind, and it does shackle it, it would only prove that control isn't possible as the AI is unable to simply call off the Reapers. And. of course, still doesn't explain why those two options have interface devices already pre-installed prior to the Crucible docking. So no matter what, Destroy is the only purpose the Crucible itself can facilitate.

[The Twilight God]

Why I still think Starbinger is Harbinger:

1. He's in the vicinity of the Crucible. He is the Reaper that grabs that cruiser in the space scene after you reach the Conduit. He has taken personal interest in Shepard, had stated he would prefer shepard intact and spares him on the Conduit run in order to indoctrinate him. It makes sense that for Shepard's indoctrination he would "direct this personally". It seems highly plausible to me that it would be him from a story perspective vs. some random reaper we've never interacted with.

2. The "So be it" voice is associated with him. It strikes me as Harbinger dropping the charade since it sees Shepard is completely broken when choosing Refuse. The need for deception is over and it no longer has to keep up pretenses.

3. He is the "leader" of the Reapers. The Rannoch reaper says he knows of Shepard because Harbinger speaks of him. This implies they aren't some amalgamated consciousness or just mindless tools under a single group mind, but individual independent nations of AIs (like Sovereign states). Harbinger has to tell the others about him. They don't share thoughts under some singular overlord AI. Not saying the intelligence didn't start it all, can't influence the Reapers or doesn't monitor their activities; but I think each reaper is very much self-aware and aren't being forced against their will as their will is what the intelligence designed it to be. Hardwired indoctrination, if you will.

4. Continuing from the last point, Leviathan even implies this by saying, "each formed in Harbinger's image. Our image". A humanoid form would actually be more efficient than the cuttlefish forms. The Collector Base gives me the impression that Harbinger is conducting the creation of Reapers himself. Even if Starbinger made Harbinger it would seem that Harbinger functions of its own volition even if its purpose was established by another entity. In a similar way that EDI works of her own volition, but still continues to do what she was made to do: Serve the Normandy crew. Harbingers believes in the work the intelligence is doing. It's as much Harbinger, or any reaper's goal, as it is The Intelligence's goal.

It could be the intelligence, it could be some other AI or it could a reaper. It's all specualtion.There isn't enough information to known for sure. But the exact nature of Starbinger isn't relevent. It changes nothing.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 09:05 .

[RavenEyry]

The Twilight God wrote...

Post Leviathan reply to people claiming it somehow proves a non-indoctrinated ending (whichis absurd as it doesn't change the endings)

Their main reasoning seems to be that we now know an AI exists before the end making it real. They seem to forget that we knew about Anderson and TIM before the dream too.

[ivenoidea]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet (probably yes, in that case sorry) but i think in Leviathan Bioware basically throw IT and us and scream "YES YOU ARE RIGHT"

How?

Shepard is drawn into this kind of dream world by Leviathan. He wakes up in the same position that he wakes up in in front of Starchild.

We know the Leviathans used their "version" of indoctrination to control the other species, and Repaers were built in their image. This is the reason the Reapers even had the early form of indoctrination, although it was perfected over the countless cycles.

So judging by the similarity between that scene and the choice room I'd say it's save to assume that when the Leviathans can cause Shepard those hallucinations the Reapers can too, all while he is unconscious. (Remember he was barely there while going back up.)

[GethPrimeMKII]

RavenEyry wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Post Leviathan reply to people claiming it somehow proves a non-indoctrinated ending (whichis absurd as it doesn't change the endings)

Their main reasoning seems to be that we now know an AI exists before the end making it real. They seem to forget that we knew about Anderson and TIM before the dream too.

I don't get their logic. Since we've long since proven the ending is entirely constructed from Shepard's memory, you think something like knowing of a reaper intelligence would add more evidence to support that. 

[ivenoidea]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Post Leviathan reply to people claiming it somehow proves a non-indoctrinated ending (whichis absurd as it doesn't change the endings)

Their main reasoning seems to be that we now know an AI exists before the end making it real. They seem to forget that we knew about Anderson and TIM before the dream too.

I don't get their logic. Since we've long since proven the ending is entirely constructed from Shepard's memory, you think something like knowing of a reaper intelligence would add more evidence to support that. 

If this dlc had been there all the time it would be easy to claim that starchild just came from this particular memory. But all dlc counts as canon from what bioware said a couple of times, so this way it actually makes sense that it appears now.

[spotlessvoid]

Best line from Leviathan " Did you take the appropriate steps to avoid indoctrination" EDI regarding the Sovereign fragment in Dr Bryson's lab.

Oh, NOW that's important

[Icinix]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Best line from Leviathan " Did you take the appropriate steps to avoid indoctrination" EDI regarding the Sovereign fragment in Dr Bryson's lab.

Oh, NOW that's important

Wait...there is appropriate steps? I thought there was no stopping it. Its 100% effective...eventually.

[RavenEyry]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Best line from Leviathan " Did you take the appropriate steps to avoid indoctrination" EDI regarding the Sovereign fragment in Dr Bryson's lab.

Oh, NOW that's important

What appropriate steps? Rubber gloves and a tin foil hat?

[MaximizedAction]

ivenoidea wrote...

*snip*

So judging by the similarity between that scene and the choice room I'd say it's save to assume that when the Leviathans can cause Shepard those hallucinations the Reapers can too, all while he is unconscious. (Remember he was barely there while going back up.)

Could've made for a nice 'Contact' moment: "Shepard, you just went down, didn't you find anything?". And I agree with you, because Bioware cared to show Shepard being unconcious multiple times during the indoc. scene.

It is a bit of an 'Indoctrination for dummies'.

[BleedingUranium]

ivenoidea wrote...

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet (probably yes, in that case sorry) but i think in Leviathan Bioware basically throw IT and us and scream "YES YOU ARE RIGHT"

How?

Shepard is drawn into this kind of dream world by Leviathan. He wakes up in the same position that he wakes up in in front of Starchild.

We know the Leviathans used their "version" of indoctrination to control the other species, and Repaers were built in their image. This is the reason the Reapers even had the early form of indoctrination, although it was perfected over the countless cycles.

So judging by the similarity between that scene and the choice room I'd say it's save to assume that when the Leviathans can cause Shepard those hallucinations the Reapers can too, all while he is unconscious. (Remember he was barely there while going back up.)

That's exactly what I was thinking. Let's play "Who Is This Character?"!

-"___" brings Shepard into a world within his own mind
-"___" display itself as an avatar of someone Shepard has seen before
-Shepard first enters this world in on all-fours, just like when he was hit by Object Rho's pulse

Also, whether Harby actually is the Leviathan AI or not, he's either showing himself as a form Shep would not think of Harby with, or is pretending to be that AI. Comes to the same thing, either way.

Lastly, something I noticed yesterday, while doing the Geth Consensus mission again; not only are all of the transitions the non-reality fade to while, but when going through those white beams to the next section of the Consensus not only is there a fade to white, but Shepard does the exact same hand over face animation as when he's lased by Harby!

[RavenEyry]

Does the leviathan vision thingies use the fade to white transition too?

[spotlessvoid]

It really doesn't matter if the catalyst is starchild or harbinger. It's mostly the same thing, certainly makes no difference to IT

Also, this DLC is all about indoctrination. That isn't proof of anything, but it, felt like this was Biowares hint when I was playing. Really tired so I powered through it and to the end. Starchild is like "great, Leviathan can see what a bang up job I've done, glad to hear it"

[BleedingUranium]

RavenEyry wrote...

Does the leviathan vision thingies use the fade to white transition too?

Actually, I don't think it did, but I wasn't exactly looking for that.

[spotlessvoid]

RavenEyry wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Best line from Leviathan " Did you take the appropriate steps to avoid indoctrination" EDI regarding the Sovereign fragment in Dr Bryson's lab.

Oh, NOW that's important

What appropriate steps? Rubber gloves and a tin foil hat?

just some force field

[ivenoidea]

BleedingUranium wrote...

ivenoidea wrote...

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet (probably yes, in that case sorry) but i think in Leviathan Bioware basically throw IT and us and scream "YES YOU ARE RIGHT"

How?

Shepard is drawn into this kind of dream world by Leviathan. He wakes up in the same position that he wakes up in in front of Starchild.

We know the Leviathans used their "version" of indoctrination to control the other species, and Repaers were built in their image. This is the reason the Reapers even had the early form of indoctrination, although it was perfected over the countless cycles.

So judging by the similarity between that scene and the choice room I'd say it's save to assume that when the Leviathans can cause Shepard those hallucinations the Reapers can too, all while he is unconscious. (Remember he was barely there while going back up.)

That's exactly what I was thinking. Let's play "Who Is This Character?"!

-"___" brings Shepard into a world within his own mind
-"___" display itself as an avatar of someone Shepard has seen before
-Shepard first enters this world in on all-fours, just like when he was hit by Object Rho's pulse

Also, whether Harby actually is the Leviathan AI or not, he's either showing himself as a form Shep would not think of Harby with, or is pretending to be that AI. Comes to the same thing, either way.

Lastly, something I noticed yesterday, while doing the Geth Consensus mission again; not only are all of the transitions the non-reality fade to while, but when going through those white beams to the next section of the Consensus not only is there a fade to white, but Shepard does the exact same hand over face animation as when he's lased by Harby!

I juust remembered, when you havent finished ME2 and still play arrival Harbinger shows up as the big collector thing, not himself. So he DID actually pull the same "I'm not showing myself but something else" before.

[RavenEyry]

ivenoidea wrote...

I juust remembered, when you havent finished ME2 and still play arrival Harbinger shows up as the big collector thing, not himself. So he DID actually pull the same "I'm not showing myself but something else" before.

From a design perspective it's because Shepard doesn't know Harby is a reaper at the time, but it still shows he's perfectly willing to disguise himself.

[MaximizedAction]

spotlessvoid wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Best line from Leviathan " Did you take the appropriate steps to avoid indoctrination" EDI regarding the Sovereign fragment in Dr Bryson's lab.

Oh, NOW that's important

What appropriate steps? Rubber gloves and a tin foil hat?

just some force field

Oh, so now indoctrination is just something that one can shield him or herself against? What great engineering the Reapers then must've done if it took them years to perfect it, while it took this one cycle just a few months or years to develop a shield against this supposedly perfected technology...

If so, why then are there reports of important human leaders giving in to Reapers on Earth? Why not provide at least them with 'indoctrination shields' as a first measure?

Is there actually a codex entry on that? WTF?

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 29 août 2012 - 10:00 .

[BleedingUranium]

Did anyone else notice EDI's comments about "Leviathans" from "Galaxy Of Fantasy", and how they have a sync-kill that players find overpowered? There's two jokes there; the obvious one, about Phantoms in MP and poking fun at the community, and the fridge one, about what can best be described as an overpowered sync-kill, when Leviathan killed the Captial Reaper instantly

Also, Steve called the Leviathans "Ancient Aliens". There was even enphasis on it

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 29 août 2012 - 10:05 .

[spotlessvoid]

I was just trying to rush through it after work tonight. I'm going to replay it tomorrow and take my time, look around more.

To me, if you don't feel like replaying the end, YouTube will do just fine for the new catalyst dialogue. The DLC itself is fun though. Plus nothing sets the mood like a screamer in your bedroom.

Also, who else thought Harbs needs an artifact enema.

"I am the Harb-owww"
"Stop squirming"

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 29 août 2012 - 10:13 .

[Leonia]

MaximizedAction wrote...

ivenoidea wrote...

*snip*

So judging by the similarity between that scene and the choice room I'd say it's save to assume that when the Leviathans can cause Shepard those hallucinations the Reapers can too, all while he is unconscious. (Remember he was barely there while going back up.)

Could've made for a nice 'Contact' moment: "Shepard, you just went down, didn't you find anything?". And I agree with you, because Bioware cared to show Shepard being unconcious multiple times during the indoc. scene.

It is a bit of an 'Indoctrination for dummies'.

I REALLY thought they were going to pull that, as Shepard was descending to chat with Levy my brain kept screaming "MAKE SURE YOU CHECK THE LENGTH ON THE RECORDING!" Kind of surpriesd that they didn't do it actually and everyone seems to just accept Shepard's version of the story (though we never hear it being retold, only references to the mission report).