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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#1526
BansheeOwnage

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HagarIshay wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
"We're not ready," refers to whether we SHOULD control the Reapers, not whether we CAN control the Reapers.  There's a big difference.  Have you ever seen Jurassic Park? 


That's what I meant, why the "we" applies to organics, not what Shepard turned into in control. We shouldn't control the Reapers if we are organics, since we won't be able hold the power and do some good with it, we'll become power hungry, dominate the galaxy... So yeah, we shouldn't. But as another being, Shepard will be able to do so without being evil. So s/he should control them, because good can come out of it. 

And no, I haven't seen this Jurassic Park thing. I'm gussing it's important?

The AI isn't Shepard. Says so itself. I don't trust a reaper. Especially in a literal ending...

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 01 août 2012 - 08:35 .


#1527
ShepnTali

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TJBartlemus wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...

No twitter. Share twit please?


http://uk.ign.com/ar...r-showcase-live 
"
IGN is showing the EA Summer Showcase tomorrow, Thurs at 1pm PDT. Mass Effect fans should watch it live. Just sayin'."


Thank you sir.


Actually funny thing is that I don't have twitter either, but it doesn't stop people from looking at peoples tweets.


It's never worked for me as of a month or so ago unless they changed something since.

#1528
BansheeOwnage

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CoolioThane wrote...

I eat unicorns in a "my opinion is totally correct and you're wrong for definite" shocker.

Just **** off you miserable, arrogant git

Gonna play some MP now if you're up for it.

#1529
MegumiAzusa

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Dwailing wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Though it could also be some ME3 for the wii U -__- lol not that there is anything wrong with that for you nintendo guys no offense :D


Maybe the WiiU version will run at 60 fps instead of 30 like the other consoles (Not the PC though!  We've been running ME3 at 60+ fps since it came out! Posted Image).

Like a baws.

#1530
Simon_Says

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HagarIshay wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
"We're not ready," refers to whether we SHOULD control the Reapers, not whether we CAN control the Reapers.  There's a big difference.  Have you ever seen Jurassic Park? 


That's what I meant, why the "we" applies to organics, not what Shepard turned into in control. We shouldn't control the Reapers if we are organics, since we won't be able hold the power and do some good with it, we'll become power hungry, dominate the galaxy... So yeah, we shouldn't. But as another being, Shepard will be able to do so without being evil. So s/he should control them, because good can come out of it. 

And no, I haven't seen this Jurassic Park thing. I'm gussing it's important?

I already discussed this back in the old thread. Basically, Shepard dies, but even if their thoughts and memories live on, the entity thinking and remembering won't neccesarily continue the legacy as intended.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 01 août 2012 - 08:37 .


#1531
I_eat_unicorns

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Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

I eat unicorns in a "my opinion is totally correct and you're wrong for definite" shocker.

Just **** off you miserable, arrogant git


No need to get hostile, but mister Unicorn is wrong in the IT not beeing valid.

A thread on this very forum, trying to move IT to fan creations was closed down on grounds of the IT beeing a perfectly valid Interpretation.

Ill try to find the exact quote for him.


Not just a perfectly valid interpretation.  Priestly's exact words, I believe, were that IT is, "A valid possiblity for the end of the game."  Note his usage of the word possiblity rather than interpretation.  An interpretation of the ending is merely one way of looking at it.  There can be many interpretations of the same thing.  A possibility means that it isn't just one way of looking at the ending, but rather actually what could be going on.

Edited to fix the quote.


That's to quell fans like yourselves who would rage if Bioware actually came out and said IT is wrong. No writer would do that, and Bioware would want delusional fans like yourselves to keep speculating on this theory. You'll be here next year still waiting for something that's not coming. 

#1532
MegumiAzusa

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Though it could also be some ME3 for the wii U -__- lol not that there is anything wrong with that for you nintendo guys no offense :D


Maybe the WiiU version will run at 60 fps instead of 30 like the other consoles (Not the PC though!  We've been running ME3 at 60+ fps since it came out! Posted Image).


Guys warn me if you are going to start discussing Nintendo in here. Just a five minute warning for me to get away from the Computer.

It is not that I dont like Nintendo, far from it actually, but if I get started on them (or someone starts me up) ill be derailing this thread into Legend of Zelda faster than you can say "Hey, Listen!" :P



#1533
Dwailing

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HagarIshay wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
"We're not ready," refers to whether we SHOULD control the Reapers, not whether we CAN control the Reapers.  There's a big difference.  Have you ever seen Jurassic Park? 


That's what I meant, why the "we" applies to organics, not what Shepard turned into in control. We shouldn't control the Reapers if we are organics, since we won't be able hold the power and do some good with it, we'll become power hungry, dominate the galaxy... So yeah, we shouldn't. But as another being, Shepard will be able to do so without being evil. So s/he should control them, because good can come out of it. 

And no, I haven't seen this Jurassic Park thing. I'm gussing it's important?


With regards to Control: the thing that Shepard became may not be organic, but it's still based on Shepard (An organic.) and his/her morality.  There are actually two different versions of Control that differ based on whether Shepard was a Paragon or a Renegade.  And each version scares me.  Also, think about it, Star-Brat was completely synthetic (I.E. Presumably not based on an organic mind.), and look at what happened with him.
With regards to Jurassic Park: you haven't seen Jurassic Park? Posted Image  What?  How?  I just?  I can't come up with any words that properly describe how confused I am right now.  You should see it, it's a great movie.  And the whole point of the movie is basically what happens when man CAN do something, but doesn't think about whether he SHOULD do something.

#1534
demersel

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Been away for a few weeks. What's new?

#1535
Lord Goose

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You missed my point completely. I'm so f***ing surprised.


I get it. You can play Renegade and like synthetics.
But I was trying to say that even if you do what, you won't be 100% Renegade, since you made Paragon-decisions. Similiarly, how you can't be 100% Paragon and sabotage the genophage.

#1536
Ageless Face

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BansheeOwnage wrote...
The AI isn't Shepard. Says so itself. I don't trust a reaper. Especially in a literal ending...


That depends on how you look at it. I see it as AI Shepard. S/he still have the old Shepard's memories, prerfrences, idealism... Honetly I would trust an AI to lead the Reapers much more than a mere human. After all, an AI can't be power hungry. :P

#1537
BansheeOwnage

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I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

I eat unicorns in a "my opinion is totally correct and you're wrong for definite" shocker.

Just **** off you miserable, arrogant git


No need to get hostile, but mister Unicorn is wrong in the IT not beeing valid.

A thread on this very forum, trying to move IT to fan creations was closed down on grounds of the IT beeing a perfectly valid Interpretation.

Ill try to find the exact quote for him.


Not just a perfectly valid interpretation.  Priestly's exact words, I believe, were that IT is, "A valid possiblity for the end of the game."  Note his usage of the word possiblity rather than interpretation.  An interpretation of the ending is merely one way of looking at it.  There can be many interpretations of the same thing.  A possibility means that it isn't just one way of looking at the ending, but rather actually what could be going on.

Edited to fix the quote.


That's to quell fans like yourselves who would rage if Bioware actually came out and said IT is wrong. No writer would do that, and Bioware would want delusional fans like yourselves to keep speculating on this theory. You'll be here next year still waiting for something that's not coming. 

We were the only fans who didn't rage at the endings! Getting so sick of this. Basically, the day before EC came out, everyone said "Even if EC proves us wrong we won't rage. We'll be confused as hell, and probably a little angry, but we wouldn't rage."
THAT HOLDS TRUE NOW. I'm gonna go blow some cerberus heads off in MP, and think of you to keep my sanity intact.Posted Image

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 01 août 2012 - 08:45 .


#1538
Simon_Says

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TheConstantOne wrote...

Even an IT perspective doesn't forbid the possibility of a Reaper collective.  I imagine it being less of a collective mind and more of a collective purpose.  The programmed purpose for all Reapers is to harvest organic and synthetic life.  The Star Child is the essence of indoctrination and would thus be a represntation of the Reapers' goals.  So, in that regard, it could be telling the truth.

Even with all of the lies in the end scenario, there could still be half truths presented to us. The Reapers' purpose is likely a lie, by the Star Child's rendition of how they were created may have some elements of truth.  We don't have the data to know for certain.

You know, I pretty much stated as much in Selfish Meme Theory. [insufferableprick] Glad to see other people catching up in my intellectual wake. [/insufferableprick]


Turbo_J wrote...

Just ran platinum again with Arian and another accquantance on Origin - He runs a Geth Inflitrator and took us through to Wave 11. Sighman just about got through as the sole survivor by medegelling at the end of the timer. lol

Total insanity X 100

Technically I didn't survive either. If I hit the gel a second sooner the game would have registered me as alive. Also, considering that it's only 100-110k or however much we nabbed, I'll keep farming gold instead of trying plat tyvm.


Emperor_Ike wrote...

Blue Moon
You saw me standing alone with a small friend
Without a dream in my heart
Without a love of my own


leonia42 wrote...

Might have to activate "don't feed the troll" mode.

As for IT.. I had a really weird thought last night about Liara's mind-meld at the FOB. Why were no memories shown during the exchange? Some say because "art" and others have speculated that it's more than the usual meld and maybe Liara is remembering Shepard's DNA. What if we go with the Glyph theory, what if Liara is indoctrinated? Why does she look so sad during that sequence, like she knows what is about to happen to Shepard? As far as I can tell, mind reading is not the same as knowing the future. But then I remembered the conversation was optional so it probably doesn't amount to much.

Anyway I found it minorly amusing that Liara could play the Benezia to Shepard's Saren, follow her with good intentions but ultimately fall victim to indoctrination. Such parallels aren't completely unthinkable.

Nice catch!


Big_Boss9 wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

In case no one has linked this, here you go. This person thought they disproved IT while actually providing us with more reason to think London isn't real.

Whenever that topic comes up I try to tell people how it's possible for non-voice acted noise to be intended to sound like something but they can't seem to fathom the possibility.

Exactly. Besides, the importance of that scene is Harbinger's focus exclusively on Shep. What he garbles is, to me, largely irrelevant. To paraphrase what another poster has said on the matter, it's essentially conveying Vader's "I have you now" sentiment.

I think that may have been me who specifically used the wording "I have you now." But yes, that Harbinger recognized Shepard and behaved uniquely, including a garbled communication of some sort (probably 'primal noise' than anything legible) is still important.


RavenEyry wrote...

Friday is the most common day in Britain, but it varies.

Just quoting this out of context. Very Douglas Adams.


HagarIshay wrote...

So... You say that the whole "renegade" "paragon" thing is a trick, right? That control is actually renegade, and destroy is paragon. And control is indcotrination.

So what you're basically saying is, that people who played a renegade played wrong?

Really, shouldn't the whole "paragon "renegade" be thrown out of the window now that we have synthesis, a "neutral" choice?

No. The coloration of the endings is more likely a trick, adding false comparisons to paragon/renegade morality to something that doesn't actually relate to them.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 01 août 2012 - 08:47 .


#1539
byne

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Dwailing wrote...

With regards to Jurassic Park: you haven't seen Jurassic Park? Posted Image  What?  How?  I just?  I can't come up with any words that properly describe how confused I am right now.  You should see it, it's a great movie.  And the whole point of the movie is basically what happens when man CAN do something, but doesn't think about whether he SHOULD do something.


I havent seen Jurassic Park either, which is really weird, since I absolutely loved dinosaurs as a kid.

#1540
Raistlin Majare 1992

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I_eat_unicorns wrote...

That's to quell fans like yourselves who would rage if Bioware actually came out and said IT is wrong. No writer would do that, and Bioware would want delusional fans like yourselves to keep speculating on this theory. You'll be here next year still waiting for something that's not coming. 


I have a small question for you mister unicorn.

If the endings are truly set in stone, the what is the purpose of new DLC? We know how it is all gonna end, why bother with new story DLc tying into the overall storyline if it is not gonna chnage anything...oh wait it is going to change something, at least there isa  good possibility.

You see some clever people in this thread dug around in the current Leviathan files and found something peculiar, new dialogue for the Catalyst in relation to Leviathan from what i understand.

So those fixed endings you seem so sure wont ever change might very well change in some way with the next DLC.

Oh and just for the record Bioware said EC wouldnt change the endings, yet they added the Refusal ending.

#1541
BansheeOwnage

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HagarIshay wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
The AI isn't Shepard. Says so itself. I don't trust a reaper. Especially in a literal ending...


That depends on how you look at it. I see it as AI Shepard. S/he still have the old Shepard's memories, prerfrences, idealism... Honetly I would trust an AI to lead the Reapers much more than a mere human. After all, an AI can't be power hungry. :P

No, sorry it isn'st Shepard. Period. In the ME universe, you can't take an AI and move it to another quantum bluebox, and have it be the same AI.

#1542
TJBartlemus

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I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

I eat unicorns in a "my opinion is totally correct and you're wrong for definite" shocker.

Just **** off you miserable, arrogant git


No need to get hostile, but mister Unicorn is wrong in the IT not beeing valid.

A thread on this very forum, trying to move IT to fan creations was closed down on grounds of the IT beeing a perfectly valid Interpretation.

Ill try to find the exact quote for him.


Not just a perfectly valid interpretation.  Priestly's exact words, I believe, were that IT is, "A valid possiblity for the end of the game."  Note his usage of the word possiblity rather than interpretation.  An interpretation of the ending is merely one way of looking at it.  There can be many interpretations of the same thing.  A possibility means that it isn't just one way of looking at the ending, but rather actually what could be going on.

Edited to fix the quote.


That's to quell fans like yourselves who would rage if Bioware actually came out and said IT is wrong. No writer would do that, and Bioware would want delusional fans like yourselves to keep speculating on this theory. You'll be here next year still waiting for something that's not coming. 


HAHAHahahaha. :D THAT's what you think? Personally, I don't think we would care. Not as long as they give a good explaination. Now if they said IT was true, I think that would cause the sh**storm your talking about. Trolls cannot deal with irrefutable truth. Also the likely hood that BioWare would say IT is false is VERY unlikely. (Considering in a poll by Chris 80% said IT was likely true...) To ****** off 80% of the fans would be very unwise for buisiness if we were to be in a rage if IT was false...

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 01 août 2012 - 08:49 .


#1543
TSA_383

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demersel wrote...

Been away for a few weeks. What's new?

Big press conference tomorrow.
IGN's streaming it live
Leviathan announcement probable.

#1544
Simon_Says

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Did Bioware shoot down the possibility for post-ending DLC or just ending DLC?

"Mass Effect 3 is the end of Shepard's story".
Yeah. DLC/Expansions would still be ME3. Or are Arrival, Overlord and Shadow Broker not ME2?

#1545
Ageless Face

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Simon_Says wrote...

I already discussed this back in the old thread. Basically, Shepard dies, but even if their thoughts and memories live on, the entity thinking and remembering won't neccesarily continue the legacy as intended.


Grunt's case is different. Grunt said that Okeer's words meant nothing to him. Wether AI Shep said him/herself that Shepard's thoughts guide him/her now, give AI Shep directions. Grunt didn't have any intention of following Okeer's teachings and the directions he wanted to give him.

#1546
Dwailing

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I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

I eat unicorns in a "my opinion is totally correct and you're wrong for definite" shocker.

Just **** off you miserable, arrogant git


No need to get hostile, but mister Unicorn is wrong in the IT not beeing valid.

A thread on this very forum, trying to move IT to fan creations was closed down on grounds of the IT beeing a perfectly valid Interpretation.

Ill try to find the exact quote for him.


Not just a perfectly valid interpretation.  Priestly's exact words, I believe, were that IT is, "A valid possiblity for the end of the game."  Note his usage of the word possiblity rather than interpretation.  An interpretation of the ending is merely one way of looking at it.  There can be many interpretations of the same thing.  A possibility means that it isn't just one way of looking at the ending, but rather actually what could be going on.

Edited to fix the quote.


That's to quell fans like yourselves who would rage if Bioware actually came out and said IT is wrong. No writer would do that, and Bioware would want delusional fans like yourselves to keep speculating on this theory. You'll be here next year still waiting for something that's not coming. 


I'm actually getting more ****ed off by BioWare refusing to come out and tell us whether IT is just an interpretation or whether it's actually possible.  I'd rather have them tell us that, while our interpretation of the ending is awesome, it isn't what they originally intended, than have them continue with this maybe it's real, maybe it isn't, crap.  They must know that's the overall feeling on this thread, so I'm pretty certain that for them to keep this up, they must have something up their sleeves.  Also, ad hominem attacks will get you nowhere on this thread.  Present a resonable, logical argument, or, and I usually don't use this phrase but I'm getting VERY annoyed with you people, GTFO!

#1547
Simon_Says

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HagarIshay wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

I already discussed this back in the old thread. Basically, Shepard dies, but even if their thoughts and memories live on, the entity thinking and remembering won't neccesarily continue the legacy as intended.

Grunt's case is different. Grunt said that Okeer's words meant nothing to him. Wether AI Shep said him/herself that Shepard's thoughts guide him/her now, give AI Shep directions. Grunt didn't have any intention of following Okeer's teachings and the directions he wanted to give him.

That's the point. What's to stop Reaper!Shepard from doing the same/similar? The Catalyst says itself that Shepard will lose connection to their kind.

Grunt was made to be Okeer's legacy. Okeer's thoughts and knowledge was supposed to guide him. And yet, his words "were hollow". Okeer "created something stronger than (Grunt)", which is precisely what Shepard supposedly does* in Control. If Shepard's motivations aren't strong enough to compell Reaper!Shepard, Shepard will fail.

One organic, severely psychologically compromised, IT or no as evidenced in the dreams... yeah. Succesful Control is dubious.

*I've warmed to the personality disemination idea. It turns Starbrat's words into half-truth so instead of being an outright liar it's a magnificent bastard.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 01 août 2012 - 08:56 .


#1548
byne

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
The AI isn't Shepard. Says so itself. I don't trust a reaper. Especially in a literal ending...


That depends on how you look at it. I see it as AI Shepard. S/he still have the old Shepard's memories, prerfrences, idealism... Honetly I would trust an AI to lead the Reapers much more than a mere human. After all, an AI can't be power hungry. :P

No, sorry it isn'st Shepard. Period. In the ME universe, you can't take an AI and move it to another quantum bluebox, and have it be the same AI.


I dont know if either of you know the Halo lore well enough to get this reference, but saying the Catalyst!Shep is the same as Shep is like saying Cortana is the same as Dr Halsey.

#1549
Raistlin Majare 1992

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byne wrote...

I dont know if either of you know the Halo lore well enough to get this reference, but saying the Catalyst!Shep is the same as Shep is like saying Cortana is the same as Dr Halsey.


Oh I know enough to get that one and it is a relaly good way of explaining why Reaper Shep is not the Shep who made the choice, not by a long shot.

#1550
Rosewind

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AI Shep? did i miss something?