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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#15601
BansheeOwnage

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paxxton wrote...

I'm really confused after completeing Leviathan DLC.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel when anything new that's remotely related to IT comes up. Overall, I'm just superconfused about Bioware. Either they made an awesome ending but won't tell us, and may not expand upon it, or they did drop the ball and royaly screw up. I just can't get around the latter, so I stick with the former.

Top! Hell yeah! Reclaimed glory! Where's Estebanus?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 29 août 2012 - 08:51 .


#15602
BansheeOwnage

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plfranke wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Are we seriously fighting over which IT theory is better again? As if we didn't have enough unnecessarily angry arguing from the literalists that keep coming here and doing that?

IT is crumbling from within...

"Why wasn't the Indoctrination Theory completed in this cycle?"
"A faction of separatists argued that their 'thesis' (lol please) was better than our original theory. We later found out those separitists were indoctrinated."

Perfect. Thank you.

#15603
plfranke

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So has anyone mentioned yet that the position Shepard is in when Leviathan takes control, he's only in that position when interacting with object Rho and when he meets the catalyst?

#15604
The Twilight God

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RavenEyry wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

You said that the contraption makes no sense. However, it makes perfect sense; which is covered in my thesis. You say you've read it, but why then are you completely ignoring the points made in the thesis?

Oh. It's a case of anyone whose read my stuff must agree with it because I'm always right. I'm gonna stop reading your posts now.


Then what do you disagree with?

Summary of our conversation so far:

You say, "it makes no sense"

I say, "OK, explain how it makes no sense"

You reply, "It makes no sense".



See the problem here. Don't try to play the victim here. Put up or shut up.

You talk in circles and then act like I'm in the wrong for calling you out on your BS.

You know you're wrong and your trying to back out with your head held high. You failed.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 09:07 .


#15605
BansheeOwnage

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plfranke wrote...

So has anyone mentioned yet that the position Shepard is in when Leviathan takes control, he's only in that position when interacting with object Rho and when he meets the catalyst?

A couple of other times.
1. When you get up after being lased by Harby. (Kind of still symbolic)
2. Overlord when your mind is being invaded. Suggestive?
Overlord is a DLC about control through synthesis...

#15606
Guest_SwobyJ_*

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The Twilight God wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Isn't there only 3 Leviathans left? How are they going to rule the galaxy?


There are three that you see. Before you saw the other two you would have assumed there was one.

Obviously there aren't enough to challenge the Reapers, but that doesn't mean there aren't enough to challeneg the "lesser races". I'm actually coming to believe that the Leviathans designed the Crucible as a double edged sword.

1. The relays are destoryed so out people are cut off. They didn't use relays. They presumably have a more Star Wars like FTL capability.
2. It destroys all synthetic life - they can't control synthetics so that complication is eliminated
3. No organic race can challeneg them head on - There powers of indoctrination are instantaneous and far superior to the Reapers indoctrination.


I think the Leviathans are just the reveal of the next villians (in later Mass Effect titles?) who sowed the seeds of resistance against the Reapers in the first place. In fact, the Prothians did as well (hello Vigil), but we then get the reveal that the Prothians were imperialistic jerks too. Leviathans are just a much, much, much more grand version of that concept.

Shepard ticked them off not because he's investigating them, but because he found their location ('breached the darkness' can be seen symbolically in several ways) and they now need to readjust their plans with him, though not in any very major way (the endings still happen, just with Shepard knowing the Leviathans exist now).

While the Reapers are their enemies, I do NOT think the Leviathans hold a ton of explicit malace towards the Reapers, and I think they in fact fit into their plans.

IT theory just morphed the whole London level from the 'Reaper plan' into a 'Reaper and Leviathan' plan.

I think in the end, both races are seeking a solution to something that will help them and only them. We're caught in the middle of a battle of gods. (thus my comment earlier of Shepard Saga/Trilogy turning from that, into something more like the 'Shepard Mythos')


Oh and I still think that the Leviathans are overall against the Reapers. Indoctrination itself it still more dangerous than thralldom, because it is more insidious and hard to detect. Thralldom is pretty damn easy to see in someone, but as we also know, it also doesn't need to always be active, and it doesn't damage the enthralled. In fact, I do believe that the Leviathan mostly ignored their lesser organics, but in doing so, it allowed the organics to try to create synthetics in the first place.

#15607
BansheeOwnage

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The Twilight God wrote...


See the problem here. Don't try to play the victim here. Put up or shut up.

You talk in circles and then act like I'm in the wrong for calling you out on your BS.

Dude come on. Whe've had enough of you. Please either act less like you're the all-knowing, always-right god you think you are, or leave this thread please. Go back to your other thread. Please.

#15608
RavenEyry

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The Twilight God wrote...

You reply, "It makes no sense".

Well, apart from that post were I listed my multiple reasons of course. Which you even replyed to. Short term memory loss is no excuse to be extremely rude to me.

#15609
The Twilight God

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paxxton wrote...

Hey! Wasn't that Leviathan in the vision from Arrival? The silhouettes seem to match.


No. I've analyzed it frame by frame. All reapers.
 
That wouldn't make sense for Leviathans to be present anyway.

#15610
BansheeOwnage

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SwobyJ wrote...

Oh and I still think that the Leviathans are overall against the Reapers. Indoctrination itself it still more dangerous than thralldom, because it is more insidious and hard to detect. Thralldom is pretty damn easy to see in someone, but as we also know, it also doesn't need to always be active, and it doesn't damage the enthralled. In fact, I do believe that the Leviathan mostly ignored their lesser organics, but in doing so, it allowed the organics to try to create synthetics in the first place.

Actually, it can kill them. Did you not see what happened to Shepard? Or what can happen to Ann Bryson?

#15611
spotlessvoid

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...


See the problem here. Don't try to play the victim here. Put up or shut up.

You talk in circles and then act like I'm in the wrong for calling you out on your BS.

Dude come on. Whe've had enough of you. Please either act less like you're the all-knowing, always-right god you think you are, or leave this thread please. Go back to your other thread. Please.


Twilight god you are right about everything. You should go back to your own thread and gloat.

#15612
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spotlessvoid wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I love how people are actually thinking StarChildCatalyst is the AI that Leviathan talks about.

It's Harbinger. I'm sure of it now.

We'll fight Harbinger. Either in certain DLC, or in a planned expansion to Mass Effect 3.


Didn't Leviathan say they created the AI, who then created an army of pawns from the galactic civilizations and then turned them on the Leviathans, harvesting them into the first reaper- Harbinger...?


The AI can still be Harbinger.

The AI is a consciousness. It can exist in...a ship... like Normandy... or in a body... like EDI... or in a program... like Overlord... and more!

Harbinger can just its name, as a Reaper.

1. AI indoctrinates organics to overthrow Leviathans.
2. AI creates Reaper out of Leviathans and calls itself Harbinger, leaves the rest to wonder WTF just happened but also leave records of Leviathan existance  (-start of Reaper cycles-)
3. Harbinger creates more Reapers in order to continue its programming of resolving organic/synthetic conflict. However, it is a faulty AI that has grown a personality (like EDI has, but... on the negative side). He is haughty, arrogant, and over the cycles, degrades into a being that, in the end, does the cycles just to do the cycles. Everything else is ('emotional') projection of guilt that it was created as a being to find out how to stop things like it from ever being created again.

Mass Effect = DADDY ISSUES
Remember that.

Oh, and it copies that damn attitude towards all later Reapers. Including Sovereign.

#15613
RavenEyry

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SwobyJ wrote...

Mass Effect = DADDY ISSUES
Remember that.

EDI doesn't have daddy issues. Shep even asks to make sure.

#15614
The Twilight God

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Twilight God ....

A dream can never be proven? How about after you wake up?

Dream Theory requires blind faith? Totally not condescending


"Waking up" in the case is equivalent to "Jesus returning". That is, the belief that he will return does not change the fact that believing he will return is based entirely on blind faith. If Jesus did return it would not be a matter of blind faith anymore. But until that time...

Stating the fact of the matter is not condescending. It is blind faith.

#15615
plfranke

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So does anyone feel like they're missing a whole bunch of the story? How were the Leviathans defeated? Why don't the Leviathans show up in the final battle? How does nobody know anything about the Crucible? The Leviathan dlc actually gave us no new information whatsoever on the creation of the Reapers. All it did was give the creators a face, and confirm once and for all that Harbinger is the first Reaper.

However, the game is still teasing a big role for Harbinger without actually delivering it, and Bioware has still refused to let us see any of our war assets in London. It almost felt like they were taking a shot at people who want to see their war assets. "The Leviathans are a part of this war now!" Well where the hell are they, they could have helped at a lot of times.

#15616
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BansheeOwnage wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Oh and I still think that the Leviathans are overall against the Reapers. Indoctrination itself it still more dangerous than thralldom, because it is more insidious and hard to detect. Thralldom is pretty damn easy to see in someone, but as we also know, it also doesn't need to always be active, and it doesn't damage the enthralled. In fact, I do believe that the Leviathan mostly ignored their lesser organics, but in doing so, it allowed the organics to try to create synthetics in the first place.

Actually, it can kill them. Did you not see what happened to Shepard? Or what can happen to Ann Bryson?


I know that.

What I mean, is that it doesn't *normally* damage the enthralled. The Leviathans control every aspect of the enthralled, sure, but its NOT like indoctrination, which degrades the mind in a matter of days, weeks, or months etc. Point is, indoctrination kills by default.

I used the word damage because enthrallment cannot be detected and the mind is seen as other wise working 'just fine'.

Enthralled keep their mind intact for as long as they are alive or the Leviathan decides to turn it off.

#15617
BansheeOwnage

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SwobyJ wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I love how people are actually thinking StarChildCatalyst is the AI that Leviathan talks about.

It's Harbinger. I'm sure of it now.

We'll fight Harbinger. Either in certain DLC, or in a planned expansion to Mass Effect 3.


Didn't Leviathan say they created the AI, who then created an army of pawns from the galactic civilizations and then turned them on the Leviathans, harvesting them into the first reaper- Harbinger...?


The AI can still be Harbinger.

The AI is a consciousness. It can exist in...a ship... like Normandy... or in a body... like EDI... or in a program... like Overlord... and more!

Harbinger can just its name, as a Reaper.

1. AI indoctrinates organics to overthrow Leviathans.
2. AI creates Reaper out of Leviathans and calls itself Harbinger, leaves the rest to wonder WTF just happened but also leave records of Leviathan existance  (-start of Reaper cycles-)
3. Harbinger creates more Reapers in order to continue its programming of resolving organic/synthetic conflict. However, it is a faulty AI that has grown a personality (like EDI has, but... on the negative side). He is haughty, arrogant, and over the cycles, degrades into a being that, in the end, does the cycles just to do the cycles. Everything else is ('emotional') projection of guilt that it was created as a being to find out how to stop things like it from ever being created again.

Mass Effect = DADDY ISSUES
Remember that.

Oh, and it copies that damn attitude towards all later Reapers. Including Sovereign.

I'd like to point out the implausibility of Harbinger harvesting a cycle on his own. There must have been multiple reapers to start. Either that, or Harbinger can assume control Leviathan style, which would be odd.

#15618
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RavenEyry wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Mass Effect = DADDY ISSUES
Remember that.

EDI doesn't have daddy issues. Shep even asks to make sure.


And that's why she's the most positively oriented character in the entire Mass Effect series lol, even as an AI. :P

Whereas we may fully discover that the Reapers are the biggest example of it.

And Shepard can't cure THAT much stupid. Sure, he can help Miranda and Jack and Jacob and more, but not friggin Reapers.

#15619
spotlessvoid

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@SwobyJ

He does say he embodies the collectiveintelligence of all Reapers.

Could mean he is the Reapers.
Or Harbinger.
Or controls the Reapers.
Or he and Harbinger are bff

I don't think it matters regarding IT anyways

#15620
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plfranke wrote...

So does anyone feel like they're missing a whole bunch of the story? How were the Leviathans defeated? Why don't the Leviathans show up in the final battle? How does nobody know anything about the Crucible? The Leviathan dlc actually gave us no new information whatsoever on the creation of the Reapers. All it did was give the creators a face, and confirm once and for all that Harbinger is the first Reaper.

However, the game is still teasing a big role for Harbinger without actually delivering it, and Bioware has still refused to let us see any of our war assets in London. It almost felt like they were taking a shot at people who want to see their war assets. "The Leviathans are a part of this war now!" Well where the hell are they, they could have helped at a lot of times.


It is at least implied that indoctrination killed the Leviathans.
They don't show up because we dont' have the huge resources needed to send them into the stars - they're aquatic by default, and operate in the 'darkness'.

etc etc

But yes, much of the story is DLC. Bioware is mean like that. :P

#15621
demersel

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The Twilight God wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Twilight God ....

A dream can never be proven? How about after you wake up?

Dream Theory requires blind faith? Totally not condescending


"Waking up" in the case is equivalent to "Jesus returning". That is, the belief that he will return does not change the fact that believing he will return is based entirely on blind faith. If Jesus did return it would not be a matter of blind faith anymore. But until that time...

Stating the fact of the matter is not condescending. It is blind faith.


Boy, when the Judgment day comes, the Jesus will come to you and redicule you for not believing that Mass Effect 3's ending was a dream. :whistle:

Modifié par demersel, 29 août 2012 - 09:10 .


#15622
plfranke

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I love how people are actually thinking StarChildCatalyst is the AI that Leviathan talks about.

It's Harbinger. I'm sure of it now.

We'll fight Harbinger. Either in certain DLC, or in a planned expansion to Mass Effect 3.


Didn't Leviathan say they created the AI, who then created an army of pawns from the galactic civilizations and then turned them on the Leviathans, harvesting them into the first reaper- Harbinger...?


The AI can still be Harbinger.

The AI is a consciousness. It can exist in...a ship... like Normandy... or in a body... like EDI... or in a program... like Overlord... and more!

Harbinger can just its name, as a Reaper.

1. AI indoctrinates organics to overthrow Leviathans.
2. AI creates Reaper out of Leviathans and calls itself Harbinger, leaves the rest to wonder WTF just happened but also leave records of Leviathan existance  (-start of Reaper cycles-)
3. Harbinger creates more Reapers in order to continue its programming of resolving organic/synthetic conflict. However, it is a faulty AI that has grown a personality (like EDI has, but... on the negative side). He is haughty, arrogant, and over the cycles, degrades into a being that, in the end, does the cycles just to do the cycles. Everything else is ('emotional') projection of guilt that it was created as a being to find out how to stop things like it from ever being created again.

Mass Effect = DADDY ISSUES
Remember that.

Oh, and it copies that damn attitude towards all later Reapers. Including Sovereign.

I'd like to point out the implausibility of Harbinger harvesting a cycle on his own. There must have been multiple reapers to start. Either that, or Harbinger can assume control Leviathan style, which would be odd.

Banshee that's the crazy thing. If his story checks out, Harbinger wasn't even there yet. So his story makes no sense unless there is something he's not telling or it's a complete lie.

#15623
spotlessvoid

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The Twilight God wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Twilight God ....

A dream can never be proven? How about after you wake up?

Dream Theory requires blind faith? Totally not condescending


"Waking up" in the case is equivalent to "Jesus returning". That is, the belief that he will return does not change the fact that believing he will return is based entirely on blind faith. If Jesus did return it would not be a matter of blind faith anymore. But until that time...

Stating the fact of the matter is not condescending. It is blind faith.


Right, cause IT is the foundational doctrine my view of life is based around.


speculations = religion. Sure

#15624
Arashi08

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Are we seriously fighting over which IT theory is better again? As if we didn't have enough unnecessarily angry arguing from the literalists that keep coming here and doing that?

IT is crumbling from within...

"Why wasn't the Indoctrination Theory completed in this cycle?"
"A faction of separatists argued that their 'thesis' (lol please) was better than our original theory. We later found out those separitists were indoctrinated."

Perfect. Thank you.

Look, I don't care who has a different perspective on how IT works I don't really support IT as much as I used to, but I do like this thread and the discussions that take place here and for me personally it gets on my nerves when the people who support IT, in whatever way they have decided to support it, can't even get along with EACH OTHER.  Isn't it bad enough that there are people who come ito this thread and want to tout their "superiority" to is and go on about how we're wrong and how they need to "educate" us?  Now people with differing views on IT are doing similar things to each other!?  

REALLY!?!?

I cannot believe this kind of thing goes on.  IT gave hope that ME3's ending wasn't a total travesty.  It gave people reason to look more closely at the game instead of getting angry and blaming BioWare for "bad writing"  (most stories are not very good these days imo but BioWare did better than most.)

You have a differing opinion of how IT should be interpreted? fine.  You want to discuss it? that's fine too  But please can we at least be respectful and mature to each other?  Practice what we preach to all the angry literalists who want us to be wrong and all that?  if we can't be civil with each other how can the angry literalists take us seriously wen we ask it of them?

In other words, stop arguing about it and grow the hell up!

This time, I stand both on top of, and by my soapbox.

#15625
Guest_SwobyJ_*

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I love how people are actually thinking StarChildCatalyst is the AI that Leviathan talks about.

It's Harbinger. I'm sure of it now.

We'll fight Harbinger. Either in certain DLC, or in a planned expansion to Mass Effect 3.


Didn't Leviathan say they created the AI, who then created an army of pawns from the galactic civilizations and then turned them on the Leviathans, harvesting them into the first reaper- Harbinger...?


The AI can still be Harbinger.

The AI is a consciousness. It can exist in...a ship... like Normandy... or in a body... like EDI... or in a program... like Overlord... and more!

Harbinger can just its name, as a Reaper.

1. AI indoctrinates organics to overthrow Leviathans.
2. AI creates Reaper out of Leviathans and calls itself Harbinger, leaves the rest to wonder WTF just happened but also leave records of Leviathan existance  (-start of Reaper cycles-)
3. Harbinger creates more Reapers in order to continue its programming of resolving organic/synthetic conflict. However, it is a faulty AI that has grown a personality (like EDI has, but... on the negative side). He is haughty, arrogant, and over the cycles, degrades into a being that, in the end, does the cycles just to do the cycles. Everything else is ('emotional') projection of guilt that it was created as a being to find out how to stop things like it from ever being created again.

Mass Effect = DADDY ISSUES
Remember that.

Oh, and it copies that damn attitude towards all later Reapers. Including Sovereign.

I'd like to point out the implausibility of Harbinger harvesting a cycle on his own. There must have been multiple reapers to start. Either that, or Harbinger can assume control Leviathan style, which would be odd.


Actually if Harbinger indoctrinated (a mixture of indoctrination and the original enthrallment, rather than the more destructive pure indoctrination) whole planets' worth, it wouldn't be so hard. A GRAND scheme, but plausable. A big-ass coup of the ruling class.

Hmm, maybe the Thorians helped in some way, overwriting enthrallment by the Leviathans just like one overwrites indoctrination by the Reapers. :whistle:

Regardless, its plausable imo, but we lack the details.