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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#1551
Ageless Face

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Dwailing wrote...
With regards to Control: the thing that Shepard became may not be organic, but it's still based on Shepard (An organic.) and his/her morality.  There are actually two different versions of Control that differ based on whether Shepard was a Paragon or a Renegade.  And each version scares me.  Also, think about it, Star-Brat was completely synthetic (I.E. Presumably not based on an organic mind.), and look at what happened with him.
With regards to Jurassic Park: you haven't seen Jurassic Park? Posted Image  What?  How?  I just?  I can't come up with any words that properly describe how confused I am right now.  You should see it, it's a great movie.  And the whole point of the movie is basically what happens when man CAN do something, but doesn't think about whether he SHOULD do something.


True, AI Shep is based on Shepard. But things that could being an organic to the dark side, don't really being an AI. As EDI says, AIs have more prefrences than emotions. That is what Shepard has now. The old Shepard thoughts. Which became sort of like codes to him/her (that is why AI Shep says Shepard's thoughts guide him/her now, giving directions).

BTW, thanks for the recommendation for the movie. :P

#1552
Dwailing

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Rosewind wrote...

AI Shep? did i miss something?


Oh, we're talking about Shep in Control.

#1553
N7L4D

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TSA_383 wrote...

demersel wrote...

Been away for a few weeks. What's new?

Big press conference tomorrow.
IGN's streaming it live
Leviathan announcement probable.


Hey you have a new avatar!! :D looks creepy lol
:blink:

#1554
Lord Goose

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No, sorry it isn'st Shepard. Period. In the ME universe, you
can't take an AI and move it to another quantum bluebox,
and have it be the same AI.

Shepard died once and was brought up from the dead. Is he/she same just because it was his/her corpse reanimated by synthetic?

#1555
legaldinho

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The problem is the dichotomy that either the ending plain sucks, or IT is true and it's the greatest story in videogame history.

I never subscribed to this and have said so multiple times. I believe the indoctrination interpretation is intended, is a reasonable interpretation of the ending, and is therefore valid, but that doesn't mean it was well executed or designed. It's pretty clear that the opposite is the case. What's worse, it may well have been intended for fans to be confused... just to keep them hooked and "speculating". We're all foaming at the mouth for this next SP DLC. I'd say it's working.

#1556
byne

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Lord Goose wrote...

No, sorry it isn'st Shepard. Period. In the ME universe, you
can't take an AI and move it to another quantum bluebox,
and have it be the same AI.

Shepard died once and was brought up from the dead. Is he/she same just because it was his/her corpse reanimated by synthetic?


Your argument doesnt even make sense. Shepard's brain was fully intact. Other body parts were replaced by synthetic parts, but the brain is fully organic. EDI even confirms it in ME3.

What exactly are you on about?

#1557
ZerebusPrime

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Lord Goose wrote...

No, sorry it isn'st Shepard. Period. In the ME universe, you
can't take an AI and move it to another quantum bluebox,
and have it be the same AI.

Shepard died once and was brought up from the dead. Is he/she same just because it was his/her corpse reanimated by synthetic?


Quothe EDI to Shepard on that very subject: "That would be telling."

#1558
TSA_383

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N7L4D wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

demersel wrote...

Been away for a few weeks. What's new?

Big press conference tomorrow.
IGN's streaming it live
Leviathan announcement probable.


Hey you have a new avatar!! :D looks creepy lol
:blink:

If by creepy you mean MAGNIFICENT :lol:


legaldinho wrote...

The problem is the dichotomy that either the ending plain sucks, or IT is true and it's the greatest story in videogame history.

I never subscribed to this and have said so multiple times. I believe the indoctrination interpretation is intended, is a reasonable interpretation of the ending, and is therefore valid, but that doesn't mean it was well executed or designed. It's pretty clear that the opposite is the case. What's worse, it may well have been intended for fans to be confused... just to keep them hooked and "speculating". We're all foaming at the mouth for this next SP DLC. I'd say it's working.



Scenarios:

We're right:
-The widely renowned writers at Bioware aren't morons.
-EA get to make hundreds of millions of dollars from DLC, bioware points and MASS EFFECT 4 / future mass effect games by having a "canon" ending.

We're wrong:
-The entire writing staff was replaced with a group of howler monkeys when doing the final scenes.
-EA are huge fans of an ending so unlikeable that it would kill dead a half-billion dollar franchise.

I call this the "EA really ****ing likes money" hypothesis.

#1559
Ageless Face

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BansheeOwnage wrote...
No, sorry it isn'st Shepard. Period. In the ME universe, you can't take an AI and move it to another quantum bluebox, and have it be the same AI.


Then if we look at it in the literal interpretation, how come does AI Shep tells you the old Shepard's memories guide him/her now, giving directions? How come if you are a renegade, AI Shep will seem to want to dominate the galaxy, while a paragon one sounds like s/he wants to protect it, unless the new AI at least took a part of Shepard into him/her?

#1560
legaldinho

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TSA_383 wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

demersel wrote...

Been away for a few weeks. What's new?

Big press conference tomorrow.
IGN's streaming it live
Leviathan announcement probable.


Hey you have a new avatar!! :D looks creepy lol
:blink:

If by creepy you mean MAGNIFICENT :lol:


legaldinho wrote...

The problem is the dichotomy that either the ending plain sucks, or IT is true and it's the greatest story in videogame history.

I never subscribed to this and have said so multiple times. I believe the indoctrination interpretation is intended, is a reasonable interpretation of the ending, and is therefore valid, but that doesn't mean it was well executed or designed. It's pretty clear that the opposite is the case. What's worse, it may well have been intended for fans to be confused... just to keep them hooked and "speculating". We're all foaming at the mouth for this next SP DLC. I'd say it's working.



Scenarios:

We're right:
-The widely renowned writers at Bioware aren't morons.
-EA get to make hundreds of millions of dollars from DLC, bioware points and MASS EFFECT 4 / future mass effect games by having a "canon" ending.

We're wrong:
-The entire writing staff was replaced with a group of howler monkeys when doing the final scenes.
-EA are huge fans of an ending so unlikeable that it would kill dead a half-billion dollar franchise.

I call this the "EA really ****ing likes money" hypothesis.


I don't accept that it's a binary scenario like that. I think we're right. AND I think Bioware royally messed up. But you know this- I've been banging on about Total Recall (as opposed to Inception) for ages. I accept I'm in a minority. Possibly of one.

#1561
byne

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HagarIshay wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
No, sorry it isn'st Shepard. Period. In the ME universe, you can't take an AI and move it to another quantum bluebox, and have it be the same AI.


Then if we look at it in the literal interpretation, how come does AI Shep tells you the old Shepard's memories guide him/her now, giving directions? How come if you are a renegade, AI Shep will seem to want to dominate the galaxy, while a paragon one sounds like s/he wants to protect it, unless the new AI at least took a part of Shepard into him/her?


Why does the AI Shep refer to Real!Shep as an entirely different person?

Sure, it could have started off based on Shepard, but that doesnt mean its going to be exactly like Shepard.

Its like the Halsey/Cortana thing I mentioned earlier.

Cortana is based off Dr Halsey's brain, but the two are pretty different.

#1562
MegumiAzusa

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that Reaper!xxx Real!xxx so reminds me of BSG oO

#1563
Ageless Face

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Simon_Says wrote...
That's the point. What's to stop Reaper!Shepard from doing the same/similar? The Catalyst says itself that Shepard will lose connection to their kind.

Grunt was made to be Okeer's legacy. Okeer's thoughts and knowledge was supposed to guide him. And yet, his words "were hollow". Okeer "created something stronger than (Grunt)", which is precisely what Shepard supposedly does* in Control. If Shepard's motivations aren't strong enough to compell Reaper!Shepard, Shepard will fail.

One organic, severely psychologically compromised, IT or no as evidenced in the dreams... yeah. Succesful Control is dubious.

*I've warmed to the personality disemination idea. It turns Starbrat's words into half-truth so instead of being an outright liar it's a magnificent bastard.


Of course AI Shep will loose connection with organics if s/he's no longer organic. It's like synthetics won't be really connected with organics. Different minds and all that...

Yet Shepard's motivations WERE strong enough. That is why AI Shep tells us Shepard's thoughts guide him/her. The codes are imprented on AI Shep. That is different than Grunt, which didn't want to follow Okeer's guidence. He dismissed it entirely. 

#1564
TJBartlemus

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TSA_383 wrote...

I call this the "EA really ****ing likes money" hypothesis.


Since EA loves money so much, why don't they see their golden poo award for some? :huh: It's shiny. Someone would buy it.

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[EDI] That was a joke... [/EDI] 

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 01 août 2012 - 09:24 .


#1565
Ageless Face

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byne wrote...
Why does the AI Shep refer to Real!Shep as an entirely different person?

Sure, it could have started off based on Shepard, but that doesnt mean its going to be exactly like Shepard.

Its like the Halsey/Cortana thing I mentioned earlier.

Cortana is based off Dr Halsey's brain, but the two are pretty different.


AI Shep isn't exactly like Shepard. It's an AI based on him/her. By based, I mean morals, thoughts, goals. Because AI Shep is ONLY based on Shepard, since s/he doesn't know anything else.

I have no idea who are Halsey and Cortana. :unsure:

#1566
demersel

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What time the big press conference tomorrow?

#1567
byne

byne
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HagarIshay wrote...

byne wrote...
Why does the AI Shep refer to Real!Shep as an entirely different person?

Sure, it could have started off based on Shepard, but that doesnt mean its going to be exactly like Shepard.

Its like the Halsey/Cortana thing I mentioned earlier.

Cortana is based off Dr Halsey's brain, but the two are pretty different.


AI Shep isn't exactly like Shepard. It's an AI based on him/her. By based, I mean morals, thoughts, goals. Because AI Shep is ONLY based on Shepard, since s/he doesn't know anything else.

I have no idea who are Halsey and Cortana. :unsure:


Right. AI Shep isnt exactly like Shepard. Thats why I dont trust it.

#1568
MaximizedAction

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demersel wrote...

What time the big press conference tomorrow?


ca.ign.com/articles/2012/08/01/watch-eas-summer-showcase-live

1pm PDT or 9pm GMT.

#1569
paxxton

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byne wrote...

I tried the custom avatar trick with the Mac version of DA:O, but it didnt work. Just as well, I might change my avatar to something awful like Paxxton's new avatar.

I mean, no offense or anything, Paxxton, but if you thought that avatar was a good choice, I kind of understand why you think control is a good idea too.

;)

Ohhh, I worked tirelessly day and night for the last 3 weeks to bring you guys the most awesome, coolest, vividly-colored and standing-out avatar of all time. Posted Image It's not my fault Shepard decided to hallucinate just before I uploaded the pic. Posted Image If I find something equally oddsome, I'd be happy to change it. Posted Image

EDIT: OK, I admit the choice of colors isn't the most fortunate. Posted Image

Modifié par paxxton, 01 août 2012 - 09:32 .


#1570
Ageless Face

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byne wrote...
Right. AI Shep isnt exactly like Shepard. Thats why I dont trust it.


Well, if you don't trust AI Shep, then you don't. I myself trust him/her more than I would trust Shepard with this, but I can certaintly see why other people wouldn't.

#1571
Simon_Says

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HagarIshay wrote...

Of course AI Shep will loose connection with organics if s/he's no longer organic. It's like synthetics won't be really connected with organics. Different minds and all that...

I haven't seen a single shred of support for the idea that synthetics and organics were sufficiently more alien to each other than different alien organics are such that they will forever be incapable of understanding or harmonious coexistence. In fact, Shepard can have a connection with synthetics, by developing friendship and sympathy with synthetics. EDI develops a connection with Joker and Shepard. Legion develops a connection with Shepard and Tali.

The reapers on the other hand demonstrate complete disdain for organic/synthetic life and an unwillingness to explain or comprehend themselves. They spread madness just by their presence. They call the genocide of species ascension, a gift to be willingly accepted. Even if connection could be possible, the reapers don't have it, don't pursue it, and don't want to pursue it. That's the loss of connection I think Reaper!Shepard will face.

Come to think of it, the reapers were actively triyng to prevent mutual understanding between different species. They created the heretic geth faction, they later armed the geth against the quarians, they indoctrinate Saren and TIM and instead of using them as a speakers for the reapers they use them as an undercover agents to sabotage the cycle from within.

HagarIshay wrote...

Yet Shepard's motivations WERE strong enough. That is why AI Shep tells us Shepard's thoughts guide him/her. The codes are imprented on AI Shep. That is different than Grunt, which didn't want to follow Okeer's guidence. He dismissed it entirely.

Have any evidence to back that claim up? Are Shepard's motivations really strong enough if five minutes before being presented the option of Control Shepard was solely pursuing the reapers' destruction? Would Reaper!Shepard's methods really match up to what Shepard would do even if the motivations were transferred intact? Remember that the Catalyst said that the reapers were protecting organic life. Look how well that turned out.

Face it. Control just can't be accepted as reliable with the information we got.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 01 août 2012 - 09:32 .


#1572
MegumiAzusa

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paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

I tried the custom avatar trick with the Mac version of DA:O, but it didnt work. Just as well, I might change my avatar to something awful like Paxxton's new avatar.

I mean, no offense or anything, Paxxton, but if you thought that avatar was a good choice, I kind of understand why you think control is a good idea too.

;)

Ohhh, I worked tirelessly day and night for the last 3 weeks to bring you guys the most awesome, coolest, vividly-colored and standing-out avatar of all time. Posted Image It's not my fault Shepard decided to hallucinate just before I uploaded the pic. Posted Image If I find something equally oddsome, I'd be happy to change it. Posted Image

There is definitely a "fear me, lesser creatures" missing

#1573
byne

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HagarIshay wrote...

byne wrote...
Right. AI Shep isnt exactly like Shepard. Thats why I dont trust it.


Well, if you don't trust AI Shep, then you don't. I myself trust him/her more than I would trust Shepard with this, but I can certaintly see why other people wouldn't.


See, thats the thing. I wouldnt even trust the actual Shepard with Control. Theres no way in hell I'd trust an AI copy of Shepard with Control.

#1574
ivenoidea

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Hey party people! It's been a while. (About a month to be exact).

To make my post a little more relevant to what you guys were discussing: I'm pretty sure AI shep is different from Shepard. Maybe not at the time when his monologue is played, but it is reasonable to assume that he could make wrong choices in the future. Choices that don't necessarily correspond to what RealShep would have done.

Now what I'm actually here for: Did anything ever come of the "does harbinger say "save us", "serve us" or just random stuff in another language" discussion?

I always thought while "serve us" obviously connects to IT i never thought "save us" actually made sense or even fit with IT.

Today i had this idea while talking to a friend. Since I'm too lazy to write it all into one proper text I'll just show you guys the chatlog.


23:06 - ETD: then there is harbinger actually saying something
23:06 - ETD: there was quite some discussion if its "serve us" or "save us" (or something random)
23:07 - ETD: serve us being IT, save us being literal, since we know its possible that reapers can go rogue (leviathan dlc leak)
23:07 - ETD: (im really looking forward to that dlc btw, more lore is always good, especially when its about reapers)
23:08 - ETD: actually, i just had a thought. "save us" could possibly still mean IT
23:08 - ETD: we know that starchild made the reapers somehow
23:08 - ETD: and if we assume that with control shepard becomes the new starchild (which to me it kinda seems like)
23:09 - ETD: then we can savely assume that the original starchild has physical control over the reapers
23:09 - ETD: possibly even about how they think
23:09 - ETD: i mean how else could shepard suddenly convert every single reaper to being a nice guy and not ****ing **** up all the time?
23:09 - ETD: if he could not, then that would imply reapers could easily go rouge against HIM
23:10 - ETD: which would **** up stuff bad
23:10 - ETD: back to topic though
23:10 - ETD: since we now can savely assume that starchild has both physical and psychical control over the reapers we can explain it all
23:10 - ETD: we have a reason why harbie acts so hostile to shep in ME2
23:10 - ETD: "you are vermin" etc
23:11 - ETD: its because starchild is actively implanting (incepting?) these opinions/thoughts into him
23:11 - ETD: we could assume that the fact that harbinger never speaks to you in ME3 is because the starchild's control over his mind is getting lose
23:12 - ETD: and he is starting to doubt the whole "muder everyone to save them" thing
23:12 - ETD: also, since people say harbinger is the lead reaper and possibly the oldest, that would make him the reaper of the first species
23:12 - ETD: the guys that created starchild
23:12 - ETD: and consequently got murdered by harbie
23:13 - ETD: i mean is it so much of a stretch that if leviathan could go rouge harbinger is TRYING to do something similar?
23:13 - ETD: (so how did Leviathan go rouge? maybe he found a way to break the starchild's control, maybe starchild just didn't incept the "murder everyone" deep enough into him. maybe he had a production error? who knows, we'll have to wait for that)
23:13 - ETD: the reason he still shoots at everything is because at that very moment starchild is physically controlling him (harbinger)
23:13 - ETD: obviously trying to stop shepard from reaching the crucible
23:13 - ETD: and therefore invalidating his "solution"
23:14 - ETD: that is why harbinger says "save us"
23:14 - ETD: that is why harbinger indoctrinated shepard
23:14 - ETD: he wants shepard to pick the only option that would grant the reapers freedom from THEIR oppression
23:15 - ETD: "Salvation through destruction."
23:15 - ETD: Isn't that something harbie likes to say?
23:15 - ETD: it would also be somewhat poetic
23:15 - ETD: damn i just typed a ton
23:16 - ETD: so, whatcha think?

#1575
I_eat_unicorns

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TJBartlemus wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

 Seeing how this thread made three times, I have to ask: would you make a "false" ending, then expand on that "false" ending to prepare for the "real" ending?


There is no false ending. The ending we have is the ending. It's just that there is a detail or a perspective that we are missing in the ending. IT is that perspective/interpretation of the ending as it is. We are just waiting to see if that perspective is correct. Like in Blade Runner. The perspective that he is a replicant. That perspective was missing until the creator released the truth. (Even the producers of ME related the ending to the Blade Runner replicant truth.)


We got an ending that was poorly written and allowed mutliple theories other than the IT to be developed. Everyone got mad about the lack of closure/plot holes and we waited for a response from Bioware, and they announced the ec dlc which would not add any new endings, just expand on the current one. Believing in the IT is pretending that the original ending was more than poor writing. It wasn't. We got the answer of whether or not the perspective of IT is right or wrong from the ec dlc, Bioware won't be adding any new endings as they have said before. 

You can believe anything you want if that's how you derive entertainment, and there's nothing wrong with it. But if there can be a "truth" about the structure of a fictional work it is that that which the author intended is the actuality. ME's writers do not intend IT to be the valid end.  

And making the IT in a future dlc would render the ec dlc useless. You're telling me that those slideshows and the epilouge scenes are dreams?

www.youtube.com/watch

Watch that video at that part. You can see how much they have worked to make the ec dlc. Why would Bioware do all of that work, then turn a 180 and say "lol it was all a dream"?

And I've never heard of Bioware relating Blade runner's ending to the "truth" of me's ending. Go get me a link, but it wouldn't really matter as they didn't need to release the ec dlc. Why would any company spend 3 months of time/resources/money making a FREE dlc and then work later to make an ending that makes those 3 months worthless? No company would do that, and no writer would do that. 


Sigh* You're missing the point. They DON'T need to release a DLC that proves it. Besides you yourself cannot claim that BioWare did not intend IT to be the valid end. You are not BioWare so you cannot make these claims. Neither am I. That's why it's appropriate to say, "They could have intended ______" or "They possibly didn't intend _____." Also according to IT, the IT works with what is there already. It's an interpretation, and it doesn't change things to make it fit. So no 180. 

Currently looking for link but it was from a while ago.... :pinched:



Way to dismiss everything I wrote because you don't want to face logic. You're telling me the IT is a valid interpretation of the endings when you clearly dismiss the work and epilouge slides that was put into expanding and clarifying the original ending? I think you and other IT supporters are just mad that you didn't get the ending you wanted, and you can't accept the fact that it was poor writing. 

I'll repeat what I said: 
You can believe anything you want if that's how you derive entertainment, and there's nothing wrong with it. But if there can be a "truth" about the structure of a fictional work it is that that which the author intended is the actuality. ME's writers do not intend IT to be the valid end.   

I don't need to disprove IT, the ec dlc makes it really clear that it's wrong. Bioware also stated themselves that they tried the whole indoctrination thing before, but it didn't work, so they scrapped it. It's impossible at this point to implement the IT without hurting the series as it would effectively render those 3 months of work useless and the entire series as useless since it makes player choice meaningless. A game like mass effect relies on player choice, and the ending options shouldn't be a roulette game, no rpg is like that, there are consequences for the decisions the player makes. The ec dlc shows that. How is the IT NOT a 180 to the franchise at this point? Are those scenes with the buzz aldrin and the slides dreams too?