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[paxxton]

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So if the Leviathans is the species, what are the names of the individuals who spoke with Shepard?

Larry, Curly and Moe.

Of course. Forgot they're wearing ID badges.

Modifié par paxxton, 30 août 2012 - 03:35 .

[Cheesemonke]

Riot86 wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Again, to bring up again something we've been talking about since Mark I, I think: What if, in its eternal search of perfecting indoctrination, the AI is so interested in Shepard because of his seemingly perfect ability of persuasion and leadership? We've been talking here about how Shepard is, in some way, is also indoctrinating others.

That way, the Reapers and the AI gain a worthy addition: some sort of a second Harbinger.

They would not only get a worthy "addition" if they get Shepard on their side...the Reapers/the Catalyst might actually have a solution for the problem they seek to solve then.

Think about it, the Leviathan are capable of controlling other organics. In a way that seems to bear a strong resemblence to the process of Indoctrination the Reapers utilize. But still the Leviathan failed to control the lesser organics races in such a manner, that they prevented them from building synthetics (which in the end turned against them). Their ability to control was not enough.

So, if the Reapers would be able to harness Shepards greatest strenght, his power to influence others and to draw them on his side, in order to improve their Indoctrination technique even more (something which they have done for centuries according to the Leviathan) - they might be able to gain enough long term influence on organics to prevent the construction of synthetics in the first place. The "problem" would be no more.

Vice versa, it would also explain the Leviathans interesst in Shepard (I loved that last Video Tour Console on the asteroid ). They want to be the apex race again, and what would help them more in archieving this goal than someone who might improve their greatest strenght, the ability to control, even more?

I really like this idea that Shepard has been indoctrinating people too but on a far more basic level through his words and his actions. He has been able to sway entire popultions of different races to his side. It starts pretty small not even the first members of your crew in ME1 really trust you until you get to know them. Anderson is your only real friend at first. By the end of ME1 the entire Normandy crew is ready to die for your cause. It grows exponentially from there in ME2 and 3. It's easy to see how the reapers simply precieve this as one man indoctrinating hordes of organics to fight against them. Not to mention the superior nature of Shep's Indoctrination technique aka no brain damage.

[Arashi08]

I get the feeling that with each DLC released we learn something new about the Reapers in some form, possibly hinting at something big happening once we have all of it...

[jgibson14352]

paxxton wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

im more interested in how they beat the second cycle, coming out of darkspace with only one reaper at first, then only two.

The pawns Leviathan mentioned.

no because by the second cycle those pawns would be dead. unless the AI never went to darkspace, which in that case hed be pretty easy to discover, or he left alot of those indoctrination artifacts, which hadnt been perfected by then

[demersel]

Just replayed the final stages of leaviathan DLC. Lot's of new thoughts.

Qutes from the leviathan:
The AI was created with a sinlge purpuse - "Preservation of life at any cost" Not to find a solution to a problem, or anything - but for this single directive. Everything that follows - is just a tool to do so.

"We will fight. But not for you, or any other lesser race. We were once an apex race. It is time for the reapers to pay their tribute to that" - I have a really bad feeling about this.

"What do you know about the crucible? - We have watched it being constructed during countless cicles. It has never been finished yet. It's outcome is unknown.".

Now, with the leviathan the only possible way for the ending to work - is to be an indoctrination attempt which shepard breaks off with choosing high EMS destroy. Because if the endings are literal and actually happen - now there is now win scenario. Every sinlge choice results in the galaxy under control of one superior malavelent force.

Now, simple destruction of all reapers is not yet a victory.
To achieve victory we must now get rid of the reapers AND the leviathans - they are a part of the same problem - galaxy being under influence of the superior meddling force, that bears malice to all leaving creatures. The leviathan clearly shows, that the ending to mass effect as it stands now does not resolve anything, and that the reapers aren't the whole problem. So when shepard wakes up, he's still yet to find a way to kill ALL the reapers AND All the leviathans at the same time. 

Right now, given all the facts, control would be the best option, and I do think that the core of the Illusive Man's reasoning is sound. Unfortunatly - we have 3 games proving us that control of the reapers is impossible, it just can't be done. It is a great concept, and a nice dream, but it isn't possible to achieve. (at least not in that decision chamber for sure).

Destroy now doesn't work, cause, you know, reapers aren't the whole problem. Reapers aren't at war with you. They just harvest. They can't be at war with you. They are just doing what they are supposed to do. And it is already horrible beyound any comprehension. Now, the Leviathans CAN be at war with you. And most likely will be the first chance they'll get (it is their logic after all that if something can happen - it will inevitably happen). - and we don't want that. (if you have any doubts about it - replay the leviathan again - a pay attention to how the leviathan treats it's thralls - read the journals of the crew of the wrecked ship - it is all there) - they are twisted, and evil. And if there were one race of creatures the galaxy would be better off without - it would be them. For all we know, reapers could be doing us all a HUGE favour by keeping them in hiding. Far all you know, reapers might have been born as a result of ALL LESSER RACES UNITING TO DESTROY THEM AT ANY COST.
We don't know. And If I was Shepard - I wouldn't want to ever find that out

Synthesis doesn't fix anything. What does it do? It destroys all organic life everywhere. But reapers are still around. AND Leviathans are also still around. So what that they have some robotic parts? Does in makes them less arrogant? Or less meddling? Or less of an apex spiecies, who persive everything esle in the galaxy as a tool? No. They just now have built-in bluetooth. with which the can directly control everything else, given the fact that everything now has built-in bluetooth.

Refuse still doesn't do anything at all.

Modifié par demersel, 30 août 2012 - 04:21 .

[RavenEyry]

jgibson14352 wrote...

im more interested in how they beat the second cycle, coming out of darkspace with only one reaper at first, then only two.

I actually asked this question before leviathan came out. Now we've seen leviathans the first cycle seems even more heavily weighted against the reapers.

[RavenEyry]

demersel wrote...

Qutes from the leviathan:
The AI was created with a sinlge purpuse - "Preservation of life at any cost" Not to find a solution to a problem, or anything - but for this single directive. Everything that follows - is just a tool to do so.

Either leviathan or Mr. Sparkle is lying then.

[paxxton]

jgibson14352 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

im more interested in how they beat the second cycle, coming out of darkspace with only one reaper at first, then only two.

The pawns Leviathan mentioned.

no because by the second cycle those pawns would be dead. unless the AI never went to darkspace, which in that case hed be pretty easy to discover, or he left alot of those indoctrination artifacts, which hadnt been perfected by then

I think the pawns weren't harvested. They were synthetic not organic. Or maybe the cycle was shorter in the past so that the species wouldn't have developed sufficiently to pose any threat to a small Reaper army.

Modifié par paxxton, 30 août 2012 - 04:24 .

[demersel]

RavenEyry wrote...

demersel wrote...

Qutes from the leviathan:
The AI was created with a sinlge purpuse - "Preservation of life at any cost" Not to find a solution to a problem, or anything - but for this single directive. Everything that follows - is just a tool to do so.

Either leviathan or Mr. Sparkle is lying then.

They could both be telling the truth. The catalyst just tells you that the reapers are his solution to chaos. His purpose might as well be "Preservation of all life at all cost" and it is strongly implied by him. 

[RavenEyry]

demersel wrote...

They could both be telling the truth. The catalyst just tells you that the reapers are his solution to chaos. His purpose might as well be "Preservation of all life at all cost" and it is strongly implied by him. 

It could be interpreted that way I suppose but it always came across as his purpose being to stop synthetics wiping out all organic life. Thus the ridiculous 'solution'. A solution which doesn't preserve organic life at all but at least tries to stop synthetics advancing too far.

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...
I think the pawns weren't harvested. They were synthetic not organic. Or maybe the cycle was shorter in the past so that the species wouldn't have developed sufficiently to pose any threat to a small Reaper army.

Collectors were most recent pawns. 

Now, th reapers has already chosen humanity, for this cycle's reaper - and natirally humans are set to become new pawns. (Cerberus, but something didn't go completely as planned there. Creberus is still a mystery by the end of ME3 - logic says that the more time pases - the more cerberus becomes reaper's pawns, but it is not what happens - close to the end of the game reapers attack cerberus - so Cerberus and illusive man have yet to play their part)

[Rifneno]

Pretty much all of what demersel said is spot on. I think the Leviathans may actually be a bigger problem than the Reapers. The Reapers aren't hard to find. If we can figure out a way to eliminate them, the problem's solved. Not with the Leviathans. They're too damn good at hiding. These damn things have hid from the Reapers for hundreds of millions of years. That's just... incredible. And given the immense size of the galaxy, you can never be sure you've wiped them out. Even the Reapers failed time and again. They'll pretty much always be out there, just biding their time.

[Dwailing]

So, it seems that the conclusion is that whatever happens, we're going to have to kill not only the Reapers but also the Leviathans to be truly free of "greater beings"? Well, it's time to pull a Klingon and kill our "gods," if you will (In the Star Trek universe, Klingon mythology says that the Klingons rose up and killed their "gods" which were actually Sufficiently Advanced Aliens. I think it's time that we do that. ).

Modifié par Dwailing, 30 août 2012 - 04:32 .

[Rifneno]

Dwailing wrote...

So, it seems that the conclusion is that whatever happens, we're going to have to kill not only the Reapers but also the Leviathans to be truly free of "greater beings"? Well, it's time to pull a Klingon and kill our "gods," if you will (In the Star Trek universe, Klingon mythology says that the Klingons rose up and killed their "gods" which were actually Sufficiently Advanced Aliens. I think it's time that we do that. ).

Where's Kratos when you need him?!

[Dwailing]

Rifneno wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

So, it seems that the conclusion is that whatever happens, we're going to have to kill not only the Reapers but also the Leviathans to be truly free of "greater beings"? Well, it's time to pull a Klingon and kill our "gods," if you will (In the Star Trek universe, Klingon mythology says that the Klingons rose up and killed their "gods" which were actually Sufficiently Advanced Aliens. I think it's time that we do that. ).

Where's Kratos when you need him?!

Ooh, Kratos vs. Leviathans!  Who would win!  My money would be on Kratos, actually. 

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

So, it seems that the conclusion is that whatever happens, we're going to have to kill not only the Reapers but also the Leviathans to be truly free of "greater beings"? Well, it's time to pull a Klingon and kill our "gods," if you will (In the Star Trek universe, Klingon mythology says that the Klingons rose up and killed their "gods" which were actually Sufficiently Advanced Aliens. I think it's time that we do that. ).

Where's Kratos when you need him?!

Ooh, Kratos vs. Leviathans!  Who would win!  My money would be on Kratos, actually. 

C'mon. That's just ridiculous. Killing everyone who doesn't adhere to your views isn't a solution. Better to talk with them or study them.

[demersel]

RavenEyry wrote...

It could be interpreted that way I suppose but it always came across as his purpose being to stop synthetics wiping out all organic life. Thus the ridiculous 'solution'. A solution which doesn't preserve organic life at all but at least tries to stop synthetics advancing too far.

Reapers don't care about synthetics - They don't care much about Geth being sentient, they just use them as labor force and troops - Reapers do not prevent the Geth from building their dyson sphere - the qurians destroy it. And them the reapers come in and prepose allience. 
Reapers are not concerned with the synthetics at all. 
Their focus is solely on the organic life. 

Now - Leviathans can control only organis life. 
Reapers by harvesting it and making it into a reaper deny them that. 
Leviathan says that reapers made the galaxy their experiment, and they won't stop untill they find what they look for. 
what was the first thing the AI tried to do? Destroy all Leviathans. Did it finish this task? No. Leviathans are still around, hiding.  
Do we know reapers to be searching for the leviathans? Yes we do.  What if they are still trying to rid the galaxy of the leviathans? (among other things?)

[Dwailing]

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

So, it seems that the conclusion is that whatever happens, we're going to have to kill not only the Reapers but also the Leviathans to be truly free of "greater beings"? Well, it's time to pull a Klingon and kill our "gods," if you will (In the Star Trek universe, Klingon mythology says that the Klingons rose up and killed their "gods" which were actually Sufficiently Advanced Aliens. I think it's time that we do that. ).

Where's Kratos when you need him?!

Ooh, Kratos vs. Leviathans!  Who would win!  My money would be on Kratos, actually. 

C'mon. That's just ridiculous. Killing everyone who doesn't adhere to your views isn't a solution. Better to talk with them or study them.

I was just following what the current train of thought seemed to be.  And based on what I've heard, the Leviathans are NOT our allies.  It sounds like they're only in this to take out the Reapers.  After that... well, let's just say I think we're going to need some pretty big squid killing guns.
 

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
I think the pawns weren't harvested. They were synthetic not organic. Or maybe the cycle was shorter in the past so that the species wouldn't have developed sufficiently to pose any threat to a small Reaper army.

Collectors were most recent pawns. 

Now, th reapers has already chosen humanity, for this cycle's reaper - and natirally humans are set to become new pawns. (Cerberus, but something didn't go completely as planned there. Creberus is still a mystery by the end of ME3 - logic says that the more time pases - the more cerberus becomes reaper's pawns, but it is not what happens - close to the end of the game reapers attack cerberus - so Cerberus and illusive man have yet to play their part)

Might be that they harvest most of humanity into a Reaper and make the rest like the Collectors. But using only a single race (not even the most developed) is a huge waste of resources on the Reapers part.

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

So, it seems that the conclusion is that whatever happens, we're going to have to kill not only the Reapers but also the Leviathans to be truly free of "greater beings"? Well, it's time to pull a Klingon and kill our "gods," if you will (In the Star Trek universe, Klingon mythology says that the Klingons rose up and killed their "gods" which were actually Sufficiently Advanced Aliens. I think it's time that we do that. ).

Where's Kratos when you need him?!

Ooh, Kratos vs. Leviathans!  Who would win!  My money would be on Kratos, actually. 

C'mon. That's just ridiculous. Killing everyone who doesn't adhere to your views isn't a solution. Better to talk with them or study them.

I was just following what the current train of thought seemed to be.  And based on what I've heard, the Leviathans are NOT our allies.  It sounds like they're only in this to take out the Reapers.  After that... well, let's just say I think we're going to need some pretty big squid killing guns.
 

Well, yes, they have their own agenda and it all might end up as a Leviathan-Reaper war in which other species are tools. In fact the harvest proves that in the case of the Reapers.

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...
C'mon. That's just ridiculous. Killing everyone who doesn't adhere to your views isn't a solution. Better to talk with them or study them.

Yep. That worked out just fine for those colonists. And Bryson. 
Do you know the deffinition of insanity according to Albert Einstein? 

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
C'mon. That's just ridiculous. Killing everyone who doesn't adhere to your views isn't a solution. Better to talk with them or study them.

Yep. That worked out just fine for those colonists. And Bryson. 
Do you know the deffinition of insanity according to Albert Einstein? 

No.

EDIT: I binged it. I actually don't get it how it'd apply to what we're discussing.

Modifié par paxxton, 30 août 2012 - 04:49 .

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...
Well, yes, they have their own agenda and it all might end up as a Leviathan-Reaper war in which other species are tools. In fact the harvest proves that in the case of the Reapers.

Reapers could just be harvesting the speicies so they won't fall under the influence of leviathans. 

They do it before the species becomes to powerfull.  But they also give time for it to develop and make so progress. - i day they refine the technology, but constantly reset organics to zero, while keeping the progress made. Given that only the organics can become Leviathans's pawns - and the technology is useless to them. that kind of makes sense - and that makes sense why the leviathans caused rachni wars. rachni tried to destroy council races. And they also don't use any technology. 

The reapers want to find a way to find and kill all the leviathans. through technology. but at the same time denying them the thralls to control. 

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...

EDIT: I binged it. I actually don't get it how it'd apply to what we're discussing.

So you really don't see how this is relevant to attempts to reason with big arrogant mind controlling crab, that persieves itself as an apex of life, and considers everything else just tools and toys, and that has a documented history of killing, using or taking control of everything that comes in contact with it, for no other reasen, than because it can?  

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Well, yes, they have their own agenda and it all might end up as a Leviathan-Reaper war in which other species are tools. In fact the harvest proves that in the case of the Reapers.

Reapers could just be harvesting the speicies so they won't fall under the influence of leviathans. 

They do it before the species becomes to powerfull.  But they also give time for it to develop and make so progress. - i day they refine the technology, but constantly reset organics to zero, while keeping the progress made. Given that only the organics can become Leviathans's pawns - and the technology is useless to them. that kind of makes sense - and that makes sense why the leviathans caused rachni wars. rachni tried to destroy council races. And they also don't use any technology. 

The reapers want to find a way to find and kill all the leviathans. through technology. but at the same time denying them the thralls to control. 

The first sentence might suggest that in fact the Reapers are saviors of Organics because they save them from being enslaved by the Leviathans. So who's good and who's bad in this conflict now?