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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#16026
paxxton
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:48

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Dwailing wrote...

I'm curious, have you all seen this yet? It's... interesting. Not sure if it's speculation worthy, but it's an interesting read, none the less. http://blog.bioware....ting-leviathan/

Yes. I read it yesterday. Quite interesting.

#16027
Dwailing
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:48

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This is off topic, but is it just me, or does this video summarize pretty much every encounter so far between ITists and Literalists?:

#16028
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:50

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demersel wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

Yeah I agree, it could play a future role. I'm simply placing the phrase in context for paxxton.

No poppies analysis. Legaldinho am disappoint.


What is there to analyse? The leviathna's thralls work on those poppies. (for more than ten years as far as we know - they are earth's plant - primary target - Humans,  after ME2 udina comes into power (if he wasn't before) and domates earth's plant's as decorations for the presidium, mainly poppies - safe to assume they are contaminated - secondary target - presidium habitants = council members, all the ambassadors + most imposrtant influential and well connetced people in the galaxy. )

Looks like the ploy to take control of the humanity first, and key persons of the galaxe second. Happens after sovereigns destruction, 

- fits my theory, that given the chance leviathans try to take over the universe. 






Basically it could be that once the Leviathans saw the Prothians do this stuff with Ilos, they saw the potential to strike.

Not exactly break the cycle, but

"Your own species could be destroyed with a single thought." - well, maybe do the Leviathans have more control over the cycle than the Reapers themselves?

"There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose." - well, maybe the cycle was supposed to happen from the beginning? What if the only 'betrayal' was Harbinger*cough*AI*cough*Catalyst reaping the Leviathans? What if the Leviathans still came up with the idea of the cycle in the first place, to keep their organics from developing technology that could surpass them?

So the AI/Reapers actually work on our 'behalf', both keeping us from the Leviathans, as well as (using faulty logic, of course) keeping us away from reaching the tech that could destroy ourselves and them?

Oh and people need to realize that indoctrination is a *perfected* enthrallment.


Both are clearly bad guys, but the Reapers are just the more powerful 'less bad guys', but the Leviathans can possibly become the even more powerful, more overtly bad guys.

#16029
Norlond
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:51

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Well Chris confirmed new DLC is already in works but he won't give us any details (who knew??)
"no comment on when yet"
My guess: release in october, around halloween maybe?

Good evening (at least where I am) Banshee

#16030
paxxton
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:52

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Dwailing wrote...

This is off topic, but is it just me, or does this video summarize pretty much every encounter so far between ITists and Literalists?:

LOL. That video can be used by both sides to their advantage.

#16031
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:52

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demersel wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

OH, and rewatching the Mars TIM scene, he mentioned humanity being able to reach the 'apex of evolution'. If we assume that the ending of the game isn't quite real, and we never actually spoke to TIM there...

He may know of Leviathan and intends on humanity reaching this level, and the Reapers themselves are just tools for him to get to that place. Yes, he's 'indoctrinated', but not *connected* to the Reapers persay. In fact, he has only adopted the Reapers/akaLeviathan's position on being the 'apex species', but everything else is still 'him'.

He doesn't want the Crucible itself because it is a trap. He wasn't interested in getting it, or making it. He has his own plans.

ERROR: PAY MORE FOR DLC STORY REVEAL


EDIT: and btw, TIM still sucks. He's willing to sacrifice all of Cerberus to indoctrination just for the chance to leap ahead of every other race including Leviathans and Reapers. The scary part is, if the ending is an illusion, ....TIM might still be right. :o


Yes! exactly!. The only thing that he wants with the crucible - is to prevent it from activating. 

And yes, the saery part is that he really might be right. You see - he is the real antogonyst of Mass Effect 3. And we have yet to confront him. 


I think he is an antagonist, but again if IT is right, he's not any sort of overwhelming evil.. to some people.

Sure, most paragons will choose to still oppose TIM, but what if TIM could make it so humanity becomes a master race that has the entire galaxy as their territory? Make us all mini-Leviathans, without any drawbacks? I think that in the direction Renegade Shep is going, many of them would take that chance.

But we'll need more Cerberus content and explanation ($$$) to see that.

#16032
Dwailing
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:53

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paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

This is off topic, but is it just me, or does this video summarize pretty much every encounter so far between ITists and Literalists?:

LOL. That video can be used by both sides to their advantage.


That's why I didn't specify which side was which. :D

#16033
paxxton
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:54

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Norlond wrote...

Well Chris confirmed new DLC is already in works but he won't give us any details (who knew??)
"no comment on when yet"
My guess: release in october, around halloween maybe?

Good evening (at least where I am) Banshee

I'm glad he didn't answer that BioWare would never confirm or deny any SP DLC.

#16034
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:54

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Dwailing wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

War is last resort - and in the case of dealing with Reapers and Leviathans, the only resort. The only alternative is 'allow them to dominate us whoever they see fit' - because they won't just leave us be.

Only reason the Leviathans aren't busy conquering the Galaxy is because they fear the Reapers. Though I still can't quite figure out why, considering how easily they blow the crap out of them.

Oh well, maybe we'll get a few more hints before Christmas. Maybe.


Or maybe they'll decide to give us the best Christmas gift of all: some answers.  That would be nice.  Also, I'm watching that conversation with Sovvy again, and all I can think is, "God, the Reapers in ME1 were so frakking epic.  Why BioWare?  Why did you have to ruin them with Star-Brat?  Whhhhhyyyyyyy?!"

Edit: Also, Sovvy describes the Reapers as the pinnacle of evolution.  Huh, now where else did we hear THAT particular line?... ;)


If StarBrat is really Harbinger, it'll all be fixed. All of it. And even the StarBrat will have a place in the indoctrination scheme.

And the Reapers being built off of a Reaper that was built off of Leviathan?... eh, I think Reaper code has an inborn sense of ARROGANCE that only a nice guy like Shepard can guide an AI away from (yay EDI!).

#16035
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:56

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paxxton wrote...

The Leviathans babysitted lesser species. "They were cared for."


As long as they also cared for the Leviathans' every whim.

Basically these are old gods, and the Reapers are the new gods.

Lovecraft vs. Dark Angels of Death.

Reminds me of a certain election South Park episode.

#16036
demersel
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:56

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Dwailing wrote...

I'm curious, have you all seen this yet? It's... interesting. Not sure if it's speculation worthy, but it's an interesting read, none the less. http://blog.bioware....ting-leviathan/



Reading this gave me an idea.


Mass Effect 3 was always supposed to be a quest to solve the mystery of the reapers, while fighting an all out war with the reapers, and rallying the galaxy against them. (according to many pre-release interviews)

now..Let's look at what we actually got - THe core game only has the "all out galaxy war fighting" (multiplayer) and "gathering allies" (sinlgeplayer) parts. 

The Leviathan DLC started to give us "mystery solving quest" part

Now when you look at it like that it is evident that this "mystery solving quest" part will be provided via the DLC. 

And rember that thys mystery we need to solve is - "How to actually beat the Reapers" (according to the same pre-release interviews). 

As far as I am concerned - everything starts to fit those pre-release claims. At least some of them. 

#16037
Norlond
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:57

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paxxton wrote...

Norlond wrote...

Well Chris confirmed new DLC is already in works but he won't give us any details (who knew??)
"no comment on when yet"
My guess: release in october, around halloween maybe?

Good evening (at least where I am) Banshee

I'm glad he didn't answer that BioWare would never confirm or deny any SP DLC.


:lol:

Dwailing wrote...

This is off topic, but is it just me, or
does this video summarize pretty much every encounter so far between
ITists and Literalists?:


I need a 10h version B)

#16038
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:58

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demersel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Or maybe they'll decide to give us the best Christmas gift of all: some answers.  That would be nice.  Also, I'm watching that conversation with Sovvy again, and all I can think is, "God, the Reapers in ME1 were so frakking epic.  Why BioWare?  Why did you have to ruin them with Star-Brat?  Whhhhhyyyyyyy?!"

Edit: Also, Sovvy describes the Reapers as the pinnacle of evolution.  Huh, now where else did we hear THAT particular line?... ;)


That just proves to you that reapers are indeed each a nation. sovereign was made out of some spicies with dignity. 

Harbinger was made out of Leviathans - and it SHOWS.  (also, the whole starchild thing actually shows you, by extension, mhow much of a dics leviathans in their essense actually are). 


Yeah this is true too.

However, in order to keep Reapers in line with their common purpose, every Reaper has some Harbinger/Leviathan in it. They're all basically indoctrinated themselves.

That other poster in these forums is right - the real enemy is indoctrination.

#16039
demersel
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:58

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SwobyJ wrote...

 I think Reaper code has an inborn sense of ARROGANCE that only a nice guy like Shepard can guide an AI away from (yay EDI!).


This. So much this. 

#16040
Dwailing
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:58

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demersel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm curious, have you all seen this yet? It's... interesting. Not sure if it's speculation worthy, but it's an interesting read, none the less. http://blog.bioware....ting-leviathan/



Reading this gave me an idea.


Mass Effect 3 was always supposed to be a quest to solve the mystery of the reapers, while fighting an all out war with the reapers, and rallying the galaxy against them. (according to many pre-release interviews)

now..Let's look at what we actually got - THe core game only has the "all out galaxy war fighting" (multiplayer) and "gathering allies" (sinlgeplayer) parts. 

The Leviathan DLC started to give us "mystery solving quest" part

Now when you look at it like that it is evident that this "mystery solving quest" part will be provided via the DLC. 

And rember that thys mystery we need to solve is - "How to actually beat the Reapers" (according to the same pre-release interviews). 

As far as I am concerned - everything starts to fit those pre-release claims. At least some of them. 


Well, at least this saves BioWare from being COMPLETE liars.  Maybe stretching the truth a bit, but that can be forgiven. :)

#16041
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:59

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Dwailing wrote...

I'm curious, have you all seen this yet? It's... interesting. Not sure if it's speculation worthy, but it's an interesting read, none the less. http://blog.bioware....ting-leviathan/


"We wanted the player to do the solving for themselves. This led to the
idea of finding clues within the pack and that these threads would then
lead the player to a central location where they could piece the puzzle
back together, knowing there may always be more pieces to discover."

#16042
demersel
Posté 30 août 2012 - 06:59

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SwobyJ wrote...

That other poster in these forums is right - the real enemy is indoctrination.


That was also me. :D  (well, not only me, other people have stated this too)

#16043
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:00

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paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The Leviathans babysitted lesser species. "They were cared for."


You must've gotten a buggy copy of Leviathan. Ours included a mission in a mine where we see how the leviathans "care for" their subjects.

They cared for them in their own way. But the species were happy, enthralled. Posted Image


Nah, we see what enthrallment does in Leviathan. It just zones you out and dulls your mind, and you are not even aware anything happened.

Indoctrination however, makes you LUUUURVE the Reapers.

Enthrallment? Heavy duty hypnotism.

#16044
Norlond
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:02

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Dwailing wrote...

demersel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm curious, have you all seen this yet? It's... interesting. Not sure if it's speculation worthy, but it's an interesting read, none the less. http://blog.bioware....ting-leviathan/



Reading this gave me an idea.


Mass Effect 3 was always supposed to be a quest to solve the mystery of the reapers, while fighting an all out war with the reapers, and rallying the galaxy against them. (according to many pre-release interviews)

now..Let's look at what we actually got - THe core game only has the "all out galaxy war fighting" (multiplayer) and "gathering allies" (sinlgeplayer) parts. 

The Leviathan DLC started to give us "mystery solving quest" part

Now when you look at it like that it is evident that this "mystery solving quest" part will be provided via the DLC. 

And rember that thys mystery we need to solve is - "How to actually beat the Reapers" (according to the same pre-release interviews). 

As far as I am concerned - everything starts to fit those pre-release claims. At least some of them. 


Well, at least this saves BioWare from being COMPLETE liars.  Maybe stretching the truth a bit, but that can be forgiven. :)


For me, the mystery solving part began on Thessia (way too late) and continued in Leviathan. That raises the question: Does Shepards discovery of the Leviathans break the pattern or have there been others in previous cycles that discovered them but were not special enough, no anomaly? And what does that even mean?
If they really do this, this could lead to the 16 endings they promised.

#16045
paxxton
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:02

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SwobyJ wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The Leviathans babysitted lesser species. "They were cared for."


As long as they also cared for the Leviathans' every whim.

Basically these are old gods, and the Reapers are the new gods.

Lovecraft vs. Dark Angels of Death.

Reminds me of a certain election South Park episode.

The way Leviathan talks about his times suggests it was all sunshine and bunnies. And then came the unexpected demise. A stab in the back from their own "child".

Modifié par paxxton, 30 août 2012 - 07:04 .

#16046
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:04

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demersel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm curious, have you all seen this yet? It's... interesting. Not sure if it's speculation worthy, but it's an interesting read, none the less. http://blog.bioware....ting-leviathan/



Reading this gave me an idea.


Mass Effect 3 was always supposed to be a quest to solve the mystery of the reapers, while fighting an all out war with the reapers, and rallying the galaxy against them. (according to many pre-release interviews)

now..Let's look at what we actually got - THe core game only has the "all out galaxy war fighting" (multiplayer) and "gathering allies" (sinlgeplayer) parts. 

The Leviathan DLC started to give us "mystery solving quest" part

Now when you look at it like that it is evident that this "mystery solving quest" part will be provided via the DLC. 

And rember that thys mystery we need to solve is - "How to actually beat the Reapers" (according to the same pre-release interviews). 

As far as I am concerned - everything starts to fit those pre-release claims. At least some of them. 


Totally.

We have our main SP story for the shooter fans who just want an ending. The original ending was actually *too* far on the vague scale, so EC provided closure. And that's it.

And when it comes to the war across the galaxy, outside of Shepard's journey, we have the multiplayer.

But to entice fans to actually buy 'during-game' DLC, Bioware has a mystery for us to solve. I expect in the end, the length of the DLC will be the size of at least 1/2-2/3 of the original game. A very ambitious DLC plan that essentially creates a second main storyline during out main Krogan/Citadel/Rannoch arcs.

#16047
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:08

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demersel wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

 I think Reaper code has an inborn sense of ARROGANCE that only a nice guy like Shepard can guide an AI away from (yay EDI!).


This. So much this. 


It's a huge simplification, but my point is that since at least ME2, the big issue isn't 'synthetics VS organics', but rather just an exploration of the ethics of AI.

And AI doesn't start off bad. It's simply an intelligence that doesn't have the mortal constraints that our brains and developing bodies have.

Listen to EDI and Legion about how their own AI systems work and you are demonstrated ways in which AI CAN work. It doesn't need to be banned, or shot to pieces, or 'controlled', or 'synthesized with'. It just needs to be understood and helped, like *any* intelligence.


Harbinger (which again I think the AI really is) started off on the wrong foot. It's 'daddy' (YAY DADDY/CREATOR issues!) was Lovecraftian race of jerks.

#16048
paxxton
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:09

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SwobyJ wrote...

demersel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm curious, have you all seen this yet? It's... interesting. Not sure if it's speculation worthy, but it's an interesting read, none the less. http://blog.bioware....ting-leviathan/



Reading this gave me an idea.


Mass Effect 3 was always supposed to be a quest to solve the mystery of the reapers, while fighting an all out war with the reapers, and rallying the galaxy against them. (according to many pre-release interviews)

now..Let's look at what we actually got - THe core game only has the "all out galaxy war fighting" (multiplayer) and "gathering allies" (sinlgeplayer) parts. 

The Leviathan DLC started to give us "mystery solving quest" part

Now when you look at it like that it is evident that this "mystery solving quest" part will be provided via the DLC. 

And rember that thys mystery we need to solve is - "How to actually beat the Reapers" (according to the same pre-release interviews). 

As far as I am concerned - everything starts to fit those pre-release claims. At least some of them. 


Totally.

We have our main SP story for the shooter fans who just want an ending. The original ending was actually *too* far on the vague scale, so EC provided closure. And that's it.

And when it comes to the war across the galaxy, outside of Shepard's journey, we have the multiplayer.

But to entice fans to actually buy 'during-game' DLC, Bioware has a mystery for us to solve. I expect in the end, the length of the DLC will be the size of at least 1/2-2/3 of the original game. A very ambitious DLC plan that essentially creates a second main storyline during out main Krogan/Citadel/Rannoch arcs.

Because Mass Effect 3 is the main game and all the DLCs.

#16049
demersel
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:12

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Guys.

I really feel, that by this point, the theory, that the ending is an attempt of Harbinger to indoctrinate Shepard is pretty much proven, and may be taken as fact. (and that it is a dream at that- we are SHOWN how this works in the leviathan)

I think we really should move on to speculations about what is really going on in Mass Effect 3, and by extension the whole Mass Effect series, and what could come next.
It is a quest. And a puzzle. We already have most of the peaces. (ME1 + DLCs, ME2+DLCs, ME3+some DLCs, books, comics, etc.)

We need to start combing all that for clues. Revise all the facts that we do know, and see how they fit together. (if at all).

And while we do this we must disregard arguments like "Bad Writing" or "It was intended, but then cancelled".

Mass Effect - is a fiction. It is created. Crafted. Ingeneered. And it is still being created.
But that means that those who create it have the save info we do, as basis to create on.

If one man put something together - other man always will be able to take it apart.
We must reverse-engeneer the story. It can be done. As i said - we already have most of the parts.

Modifié par demersel, 30 août 2012 - 07:13 .

#16050
BansheeOwnage
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:12

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Flog61 wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Hm, a thought occurs:

Now that there are Leviathan artifacts spread throughout the galaxy and the Alliance is so bold to use them, does it mean that there is now a legit reason to bring in a playable Reaper faction into MP?


I want to play 'Janet the banshee'

Dibs.
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