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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#16051
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:12

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Norlond wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

demersel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm curious, have you all seen this yet? It's... interesting. Not sure if it's speculation worthy, but it's an interesting read, none the less. http://blog.bioware....ting-leviathan/



Reading this gave me an idea.


Mass Effect 3 was always supposed to be a quest to solve the mystery of the reapers, while fighting an all out war with the reapers, and rallying the galaxy against them. (according to many pre-release interviews)

now..Let's look at what we actually got - THe core game only has the "all out galaxy war fighting" (multiplayer) and "gathering allies" (sinlgeplayer) parts. 

The Leviathan DLC started to give us "mystery solving quest" part

Now when you look at it like that it is evident that this "mystery solving quest" part will be provided via the DLC. 

And rember that thys mystery we need to solve is - "How to actually beat the Reapers" (according to the same pre-release interviews). 

As far as I am concerned - everything starts to fit those pre-release claims. At least some of them. 


Well, at least this saves BioWare from being COMPLETE liars.  Maybe stretching the truth a bit, but that can be forgiven. :)


For me, the mystery solving part began on Thessia (way too late) and continued in Leviathan. That raises the question: Does Shepards discovery of the Leviathans break the pattern or have there been others in previous cycles that discovered them but were not special enough, no anomaly? And what does that even mean?
If they really do this, this could lead to the 16 endings they promised.



Personally, I don't think anyone has 'breached the darkness' before.

It took a lot of improbable circumstances to lead up to Shepard even having an inkling of the Leviathans existing, and then pursing them, and then finding them.

By finding them, us, the players, have 'breached the darkness' and now have a much more interesting idea of what is REALLY happening in Mass Effect, and what cosmic game Shepard is part of.

I think the previous cycles have tried the Crucible but they never had the experiences like Shepard just had in Leviathan. Things like this will be the breaking point of the cycles, and maybe lead to us successfully breaking the whole galactic control system once and for all.

#16052
BansheeOwnage
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:13

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RavenEyry wrote...

Not necessarily. We don't (I think) have a timeline on how long after the genesis of the reapers the citadel was built. Several cycles could've passed before they came up with the trap and keepers are just husks of whatever was around at the time (they're partially organic and partially synthetic. Synthesis yo.)

And they are mindless drones...

I'll be back after I eat. Posted Image

#16053
Dwailing
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:13

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SwobyJ wrote...

demersel wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

 I think Reaper code has an inborn sense of ARROGANCE that only a nice guy like Shepard can guide an AI away from (yay EDI!).


This. So much this. 


It's a huge simplification, but my point is that since at least ME2, the big issue isn't 'synthetics VS organics', but rather just an exploration of the ethics of AI.

And AI doesn't start off bad. It's simply an intelligence that doesn't have the mortal constraints that our brains and developing bodies have.

Listen to EDI and Legion about how their own AI systems work and you are demonstrated ways in which AI CAN work. It doesn't need to be banned, or shot to pieces, or 'controlled', or 'synthesized with'. It just needs to be understood and helped, like *any* intelligence.


Harbinger (which again I think the AI really is) started off on the wrong foot. It's 'daddy' (YAY DADDY/CREATOR issues!) was Lovecraftian race of jerks.


I'll admit, having a race of giant talking squid jerks for parents would probably not do wonders for your mental/moral development.

#16054
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:15

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paxxton wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The Leviathans babysitted lesser species. "They were cared for."


As long as they also cared for the Leviathans' every whim.

Basically these are old gods, and the Reapers are the new gods.

Lovecraft vs. Dark Angels of Death.

Reminds me of a certain election South Park episode.

The way Leviathan talks about his times suggests it was all sunshine and bunnies. And then came the unexpected demise. A stab in the back from their own "child".


Sunshine and bunnies... for them.

The mining facility level told me all I needed to know about Leviathan ethics. They're up to no good - not just research.

While they got stabbed in the back, I'm sure - that doesn't mean that their original system was all too nice for organics.

Leviathans: exist as slaves but with just enough freedom to also have our societies develop. No cycles of death.
Reapers: exist seemingly free but with guidence on specific technological lines. Cycles of death.

Neither are good for organics. They're just not utterly and completely ruinous. Yet.

I have a feeling that if the Leviathans had their way again, they'd hold a much tighter 'leash' on their slave races.

#16055
demersel
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:16

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paxxton wrote...

The way Leviathan talks about his times suggests it was all sunshine and bunnies. And then came the unexpected demise. A stab in the back from their own "child".


Sure it was all sunshine and bunnies. FOR THE LEVIATHANS!
And he did sound like he would really like for those times to come back. 

#16056
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:17

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paxxton wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

demersel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm curious, have you all seen this yet? It's... interesting. Not sure if it's speculation worthy, but it's an interesting read, none the less. http://blog.bioware....ting-leviathan/



Reading this gave me an idea.


Mass Effect 3 was always supposed to be a quest to solve the mystery of the reapers, while fighting an all out war with the reapers, and rallying the galaxy against them. (according to many pre-release interviews)

now..Let's look at what we actually got - THe core game only has the "all out galaxy war fighting" (multiplayer) and "gathering allies" (sinlgeplayer) parts. 

The Leviathan DLC started to give us "mystery solving quest" part

Now when you look at it like that it is evident that this "mystery solving quest" part will be provided via the DLC. 

And rember that thys mystery we need to solve is - "How to actually beat the Reapers" (according to the same pre-release interviews). 

As far as I am concerned - everything starts to fit those pre-release claims. At least some of them. 


Totally.

We have our main SP story for the shooter fans who just want an ending. The original ending was actually *too* far on the vague scale, so EC provided closure. And that's it.

And when it comes to the war across the galaxy, outside of Shepard's journey, we have the multiplayer.

But to entice fans to actually buy 'during-game' DLC, Bioware has a mystery for us to solve. I expect in the end, the length of the DLC will be the size of at least 1/2-2/3 of the original game. A very ambitious DLC plan that essentially creates a second main storyline during out main Krogan/Citadel/Rannoch arcs.

Because Mass Effect 3 is the main game and all the DLCs.


I'm not sure if you have the point.

Indeed, ME3 is the game plus the DLCs. It'll get to the point where the DLCs will be pretty mandatory to actually understand the story. More money for Bioware/EA.

#16057
demersel
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:21

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Dwailing wrote...

This is off topic, but is it just me, or does this video summarize pretty much every encounter so far between ITists and Literalists?:


You sick ****, you almost killed me!!!!

#16058
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:22

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demersel wrote...

Guys.

I really feel, that by this point, the theory, that the ending is an attempt of Harbinger to indoctrinate Shepard is pretty much proven, and may be taken as fact. (and that it is a dream at that- we are SHOWN how this works in the leviathan)

I think we really should move on to speculations about what is really going on in Mass Effect 3, and by extension the whole Mass Effect series, and what could come next.
It is a quest. And a puzzle. We already have most of the peaces. (ME1 + DLCs, ME2+DLCs, ME3+some DLCs, books, comics, etc.)

We need to start combing all that for clues. Revise all the facts that we do know, and see how they fit together. (if at all).

And while we do this we must disregard arguments like "Bad Writing" or "It was intended, but then cancelled".

Mass Effect - is a fiction. It is created. Crafted. Ingeneered. And it is still being created.
But that means that those who create it have the save info we do, as basis to create on.

If one man put something together - other man always will be able to take it apart.
We must reverse-engeneer the story. It can be done. As i said - we already have most of the parts.


I'm so glad I've been watching my boyfriend play ME1 next to me while I read this stuff. It's very illuminating. Even going as far back as Eden Prime, there are hints at a larger concept happening.

I think its a bit of a daunting idea that Shepard is such a special individual that he is special by default now - after the beacon, cypher, death, cybernetics, indoctrination (at least Object Rho), enthrallment/telepathy, and more.

So many people just chalk it up to bad writing.

The big point might be that because Shepard can be exposed to all of these things and make it, THAT is the whole point of the 'genetic maliability'. There is some end goal of the god races that require something in humanity that Shepard exhibits. Shepard can either:
a)give the god races (Reapers or Leviathan? I dunno) what they want
b)deny them what they want, and insist on freedom against larger tyrany
c)become a tyrant yourself, hello TIM DLC

#16059
Dwailing
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:26

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demersel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

This is off topic, but is it just me, or does this video summarize pretty much every encounter so far between ITists and Literalists?:


You sick ****, you almost killed me!!!!


Sheesh, I didn't think it would do THAT.  I was only trying to maim or seriously injure people. :P:devil:  jk, jk

#16060
demersel
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:28

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SwobyJ wrote...

It's a huge simplification, but my point is that since at least ME2, the big issue isn't 'synthetics VS organics', but rather just an exploration of the ethics of AI.

And AI doesn't start off bad. It's simply an intelligence that doesn't have the mortal constraints that our brains and developing bodies have.

Listen to EDI and Legion about how their own AI systems work and you are demonstrated ways in which AI CAN work. It doesn't need to be banned, or shot to pieces, or 'controlled', or 'synthesized with'. It just needs to be understood and helped, like *any* intelligence.


Harbinger (which again I think the AI really is) started off on the wrong foot. It's 'daddy' (YAY DADDY/CREATOR issues!) was Lovecraftian race of jerks.


Yes. I completely agree. 

It seems to me, we are on the same page. *bro-fist*

PC or X-box?

#16061
paxxton
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:36

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demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The way Leviathan talks about his times suggests it was all sunshine and bunnies. And then came the unexpected demise. A stab in the back from their own "child".


Sure it was all sunshine and bunnies. FOR THE LEVIATHANS!
And he did sound like he would really like for those times to come back. 

Of course. Who wouldn't want their own times of glory to come back?

Modifié par paxxton, 30 août 2012 - 07:36 .

#16062
demersel
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:39

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SwobyJ wrote...

I think its a bit of a daunting idea that Shepard is such a special individual that he is special by default now - after the beacon, cypher, death, cybernetics, indoctrination (at least Object Rho), enthrallment/telepathy, and more.

So many people just chalk it up to bad writing.

The big point might be that because Shepard can be exposed to all of these things and make it, THAT is the whole point of the 'genetic maliability'. There is some end goal of the god races that require something in humanity that Shepard exhibits. Shepard can either:
a)give the god races (Reapers or Leviathan? I dunno) what they want
b)deny them what they want, and insist on freedom against larger tyrany
c)become a tyrant yourself, hello TIM DLC


I think, that Shepard is special, because of his expieriences, an of what he has been through. This isnt a single event or thing. And it is not about some special abulity that he has gained, thanks to those events. 
No. It is about his identity. And his identity is shaped by the events of his life. 
Because he's been in so many places, and has done so much - Shepard really understands the universe and how it works. And you got ot admit - he's already done some amazing things.

This is what is special about him. He not only wintessed magnifisent events and met and talked to some strange powerfull creatures - he lived to tell the tale! And that is no small feat. What is the only lose condition? If you get killed. 

As for the ending that could be i think it will be something like this 
Reapers\\Leviathans will be destroyed. Regardless of Paragon\\Renegade, or anything. It will be just like sovereign in ME1 and the collectors in ME2. This is what happens in the story - they are destroyed. 

But where it will differ - is the fate and place of lesser races - what races would be destroyed, or who will be in power? 
- Will it be humanity? 
- Will there be peace in the galaxy, or will everybody start fighting over who's the big boss now? 

Things like that. 

Remeber in each of the previous games the ending choice is not about whether or not you want to destroy the main enemy, but will you assure that humanity is dominant after?  And there are other small details and choices made throughout the game. 

Modifié par demersel, 30 août 2012 - 07:45 .

#16063
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:40

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demersel wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I think its a bit of a daunting idea that Shepard is such a special individual that he is special by default now - after the beacon, cypher, death, cybernetics, indoctrination (at least Object Rho), enthrallment/telepathy, and more.

So many people just chalk it up to bad writing.

The big point might be that because Shepard can be exposed to all of these things and make it, THAT is the whole point of the 'genetic maliability'. There is some end goal of the god races that require something in humanity that Shepard exhibits. Shepard can either:
a)give the god races (Reapers or Leviathan? I dunno) what they want
b)deny them what they want, and insist on freedom against larger tyrany
c)become a tyrant yourself, hello TIM DLC


I think, that Shepard is special, because of his expieriences, an of what he has been through. This isnt a single event or thing. And it is not about some special abulity that he has gained, thanks to those events. 
No. It is about his identity. And his identity is shaped by the events of his life. 
Because he's been in so many places, and has done so much - Shepard really understands the universe and how it works. And you got ot admit - he's already done some amazing things.

This is what is special about him. He not only wintessed magnifisent events and met and talked to some strange powerfull creatures - he lived to tell the tale! And that is no small feat. What is the only lose condition? If you get killed. 



Oh I agree! I was just more speaking from the Leviathan/Reaper standpoint. They just can't bloody understand what makes this simple man tick. :wizard:

#16064
kyban
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:40

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A small part of me still hopes IT is real... no matter how silly it seems by now. That is all.

#16065
paxxton
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:42

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One thing doesn't add up. If the Leviathans are an aquatic species, how can one be shown flying above the savages?

#16066
Norlond
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:42

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I have been thinking about the Leviathan-Thorian relationship and while I'm pretty sure the Thorians aren't able to control the Leviathans, I think the Leviathans may be able to control the Thorians to create a neural subnetwork or something
That could mean Sovereign wasn't interested in the Thorian only because of the location of the Conduit but also because of the locations of some Leviathans.
Thorians would also be more effective than the artifacts because they are a huge network of neural knots and able to 'indoctrinate' a larger area
Leaves the question how that affects the colonists on Feros...

Just a thought, could be nothing but I thought I should mention it

#16067
Norlond
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:45

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paxxton wrote...

One thing doesn't add up. If the Leviathans are an aquatic species, how can one be shown flying above the savages?


I don't even know how the hell they got their artifacts spread around the galaxy, y'know, being big stupid cuttlefishes and all

#16068
ZerebusPrime
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:46

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Something rather simple just hit me.

The Leviathans showed that they can lie during the mining facility mission when they directed that man to pretend he was Dr. Garneau.

Hooray potential falsehoods.

#16069
paxxton
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:47

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Norlond wrote...

paxxton wrote...

One thing doesn't add up. If the Leviathans are an aquatic species, how can one be shown flying above the savages?


I don't even know how the hell they got their artifacts spread around the galaxy, y'know, being big stupid cuttlefishes and all

They are definitely not stupid. Perhaps, the artifacts were transported by possessed slaves.

#16070
FFZero
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:48

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Finally got around to playing through Leviathan. Very interesting stuff and it does set the bar pretty high for future DLC, also love that they added new dialogue for squadmates/LI’s, especially Vega. Some of his lines to do with the Husk head in Bryson’s lab were hilarious.

Anyway has Leviathan sparked any new speculations/theories? I'll try to catch up on new pages but I haven’t been in this thread for a few days and it looks like you've made 20+ pages of posts today alone...

Also about to start tearing the game files apart to see if there's anything to do with future DLC like in the EC and Earth MP DLC.

Modifié par FFZero, 30 août 2012 - 07:49 .

#16071
Spartas Husky
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:50

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I am so confused now... btw I am back from months ago. Kind peek every now and again. Simple question, does it or does it not do anything for the ending besides remind you of the wtf moment on it.
Speaking about the leviathan dlc, wondering on whether or not to buy it. simple yes or no to both little questions. Thanks!

#16072
legaldinho
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:50

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demersel wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

Yeah I agree, it could play a future role. I'm simply placing the phrase in context for paxxton.

No poppies analysis. Legaldinho am disappoint.


What is there to analyse? The leviathna's thralls work on those poppies. (for more than ten years as far as we know - they are earth's plant - primary target - Humans,  after ME2 udina comes into power (if he wasn't before) and domates earth's plant's as decorations for the presidium, mainly poppies - safe to assume they are contaminated - secondary target - presidium habitants = council members, all the ambassadors + most imposrtant influential and well connetced people in the galaxy. )

Looks like the ploy to take control of the humanity first, and key persons of the galaxe second. Happens after sovereigns destruction, 

- fits my theory, that given the chance leviathans try to take over the universe. 






That, ironically, is a pretty good analysis.  There are a couple of issues, though- need to be sure they're the same flowers. The ones in Leviathan seemed more orangey on my TV, and smaller.  And if they're Leviathan's, why are his thralls studying them?

Was Udina working under Leviathan's influence? He seemed to be working with Cerberus. Is TIM indoctrinated not by reapers, but by Leviathan? Does that explain his apparent conflict with the reapers and why they pursue Cerberus in Horizon?

#16073
Norlond
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:52

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paxxton wrote...

Norlond wrote...

paxxton wrote...

One thing doesn't add up. If the Leviathans are an aquatic species, how can one be shown flying above the savages?


I don't even know how the hell they got their artifacts spread around the galaxy, y'know, being big stupid cuttlefishes and all

They are definitely not stupid. Perhaps, the artifacts were transported by possessed slaves.


Just a hanar-reference, I know they aren't stupid :P

As far as I saw it the planet they live on is a water-only planet (like Manaan) and their first possessed slaves would be aquatic too?
One possibility is that their original himeworld is a normal garden world, then there could be adequate slaves around, but I'm not sure if life can even evolve to be intelligent under water...
Lots of questions in my mind! Damnit!

#16074
paxxton
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:52

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Spartas Husky wrote...

I am so confused now... btw I am back from months ago. Kind peek every now and again. Simple question, does it or does it not do anything for the ending besides remind you of the wtf moment on it.
Speaking about the leviathan dlc, wondering on whether or not to buy it. simple yes or no to both little questions. Thanks!

Yes, buy it without hesitation. Totally worth every BW point.

#16075
ZerebusPrime
Posté 30 août 2012 - 07:53

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I think we have to look at what the Leviathans tell us of their history carefully, remembering three things as we go:
1. These monsters have a completely alien point of view.
2. We are insignificant to them.
3. It may not be in their interest to tell us whole truths, or at least not whole truths from our point of view.
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