plfranke wrote...
Guys! Leviathan says "Your mind belongs to me.... Breathe." The breath scene! It also shows that Shepard when he's in these hallucinations can't tell what's real or not, because he says, "Ann what's happening?"
XXIceColdXX wrote...
spotlessvoid wrote...
Leviathans created the Guardian who then created Harbinger by harvesting the Leviathans. If that's even the truth.
In the DLC Leviathan states that they created a 'intelligence' who is most likely the Catalyst as that is exactly how he described himself in the ending.
The 'Intelligence' created Harbinger.
plfranke wrote...
I find it odd that Leviathan repeatedly states the goal of the intelligence is the preservation of life at any cost but the Catalyst never says this. His goal is to stop chaos, and stop synthetics from destroying organics.
Leviathan also said that evolution is just a tool to the intelligence, yet the catalyst talks about it like it's some great thing.spotlessvoid wrote...
plfranke wrote...
I find it odd that Leviathan repeatedly states the goal of the intelligence is the preservation of life at any cost but the Catalyst never says this. His goal is to stop chaos, and stop synthetics from destroying organics.
And synthesis is the destruction of organic life.
A lot of people have said that from the start. It's one reason many people who go deeper than 'bad riting lol' think it's a trap or a test or something. You can make improvements on a design each cycle, but that would require the basic design from the start, which isn't what's implied and you'd need to know what it does anyway.spotlessvoid wrote...
What did the first cycle contribute to the crucible? A few pieces of plywood? Cycle 2 adds a sprocket? 842 cycles later it's the crucible?
Step 1: ????
Step 2: ????
Step 843: Crucible
Yah, how do you start building anything without a loose concept or directions?
Yeah it's very odd that Leviathan does an "I was born in London" look when Shepard asks about it too.RavenEyry wrote...
A lot of people have said that from the start. It's one reason many people who go deeper than 'bad riting lol' think it's a trap or a test or something. You can make improvements on a design each cycle, but that would require the basic design from the start, which isn't what's implied and you'd need to know what it does anyway.spotlessvoid wrote...
What did the first cycle contribute to the crucible? A few pieces of plywood? Cycle 2 adds a sprocket? 842 cycles later it's the crucible?
Step 1: ????
Step 2: ????
Step 843: Crucible
Yah, how do you start building anything without a loose concept or directions?
XXIceColdXX wrote...
plfranke wrote...
Guys! Leviathan says "Your mind belongs to me.... Breathe." The breath scene! It also shows that Shepard when he's in these hallucinations can't tell what's real or not, because he says, "Ann what's happening?"
Not a bad point! Shep definately didnt know what was happening till Levi started talking in his deep reaperesk voice.
plfranke wrote...
Yeah it's very odd that Leviathan does an "I was born in London" look when Shepard asks about it too.RavenEyry wrote...
A lot of people have said that from the start. It's one reason many people who go deeper than 'bad riting lol' think it's a trap or a test or something. You can make improvements on a design each cycle, but that would require the basic design from the start, which isn't what's implied and you'd need to know what it does anyway.spotlessvoid wrote...
What did the first cycle contribute to the crucible? A few pieces of plywood? Cycle 2 adds a sprocket? 842 cycles later it's the crucible?
Step 1: ????
Step 2: ????
Step 843: Crucible
Yah, how do you start building anything without a loose concept or directions?
RavenEyry wrote...
A lot of people have said that from the start. It's one reason many people who go deeper than 'bad riting lol' think it's a trap or a test or something. You can make improvements on a design each cycle, but that would require the basic design from the start, which isn't what's implied and you'd need to know what it does anyway.
Guest_SwobyJ_*
I_eat_unicorns wrote...
byne wrote...
I_eat_unicorns wrote...
IT is a fan-fiction ending.
Except you have no proof of that, and the thread asking to move the IT thread to the fan creations forum got locked.
Anyhow, I'm tired as hell. Going to go to bed.
Nitpicking my posts and running away doesn't make you right. With the leviathan dlc actaully acknowleging the existence of the catalyst, Bioware is heading in a direction that hurts the mass effect universe. And regardless of whether IT is true or not, one thing is certain: it's not necessary for an alternate ending dlc. Quit hoping that it's the case and help the rest of the community make a plea for better endings, or answers as to why the ending was so bad to begin with if that's the best we can get.
Every cycle dedicates all their resources to it. Every cycle fails to build it. The sad thing is, I'm starting to think that Bioware meant the entire game to just be a big metaphor, only they failed to realize that the plot and impact of player choice of this game was much more important than any message their metaphor could send.BleedingUranium wrote...
plfranke wrote...
Yeah it's very odd that Leviathan does an "I was born in London" look when Shepard asks about it too.RavenEyry wrote...
A lot of people have said that from the start. It's one reason many people who go deeper than 'bad riting lol' think it's a trap or a test or something. You can make improvements on a design each cycle, but that would require the basic design from the start, which isn't what's implied and you'd need to know what it does anyway.spotlessvoid wrote...
What did the first cycle contribute to the crucible? A few pieces of plywood? Cycle 2 adds a sprocket? 842 cycles later it's the crucible?
Step 1: ????
Step 2: ????
Step 843: Crucible
Yah, how do you start building anything without a loose concept or directions?
I'm not sure how much for iffy the Crucible could be, past actually revealing it to be a trap...
exactly it's just so unbelievably stupid. The main problem I have with believing it's anything but a trap, is the way it's written, it's as if Bioware themselves had no idea what the thing did until the very moment you get up to the decision chamber. I mean it's easy to foreshadow something without having characters tell you about it.RavenEyry wrote...
There's also that supposedly the citadel was added to the design at some point, meaning it wasn't there at the start. People started designing a power supply for the citadel rainbow gun without even knowing the citadel was involved?
SwobyJ wrote...
I_eat_unicorns wrote...
byne wrote...
I_eat_unicorns wrote...
IT is a fan-fiction ending.
Except you have no proof of that, and the thread asking to move the IT thread to the fan creations forum got locked.
Anyhow, I'm tired as hell. Going to go to bed.
Nitpicking my posts and running away doesn't make you right. With the leviathan dlc actaully acknowleging the existence of the catalyst, Bioware is heading in a direction that hurts the mass effect universe. And regardless of whether IT is true or not, one thing is certain: it's not necessary for an alternate ending dlc. Quit hoping that it's the case and help the rest of the community make a plea for better endings, or answers as to why the ending was so bad to begin with if that's the best we can get.
Wait, no.
Leviathan talked of an AI. Never named it. Never claimed it took the Citadel as its home. Never even agreed with the 'Catalyst' that its mandate was to form synthetic and organic relations.
You know what Leviathan said?
-its an AI (no name)
-nothing about where it is located (in fact, the Citadel was created in cycles after the first Leviathan cycle)
-the AI's mandate was to 'preserve life at any cost'. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I'm still very inclined to believe that the AI is what later becomes Harbinger, forming the basis of Reaper code that we see in other Reapers, and then in EDI (ME2/3) and the Geth (ME3).
I personally think there's something to what Leviathan said about the intelligence looking for something it hasn't found, could even be a solution to dark energy, or some other phenomena. I don't think it's synthesis though. For the love of God please don't let it be synthesis.BleedingUranium wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
I_eat_unicorns wrote...
byne wrote...
I_eat_unicorns wrote...
IT is a fan-fiction ending.
Except you have no proof of that, and the thread asking to move the IT thread to the fan creations forum got locked.
Anyhow, I'm tired as hell. Going to go to bed.
Nitpicking my posts and running away doesn't make you right. With the leviathan dlc actaully acknowleging the existence of the catalyst, Bioware is heading in a direction that hurts the mass effect universe. And regardless of whether IT is true or not, one thing is certain: it's not necessary for an alternate ending dlc. Quit hoping that it's the case and help the rest of the community make a plea for better endings, or answers as to why the ending was so bad to begin with if that's the best we can get.
Wait, no.
Leviathan talked of an AI. Never named it. Never claimed it took the Citadel as its home. Never even agreed with the 'Catalyst' that its mandate was to form synthetic and organic relations.
You know what Leviathan said?
-its an AI (no name)
-nothing about where it is located (in fact, the Citadel was created in cycles after the first Leviathan cycle)
-the AI's mandate was to 'preserve life at any cost'. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I'm still very inclined to believe that the AI is what later becomes Harbinger, forming the basis of Reaper code that we see in other Reapers, and then in EDI (ME2/3) and the Geth (ME3).
I am also of the mind that the AI is Harbinger. It was never said, or even implied, by Leviathan that he was or wasn't, but it very much fits with Harbinger's personality.
He's very different from Sovereign and the Destroyer on Rannoch, who, compared to Harbinger, seem kind of like the Leviathan controlled people in the mining facility, or Cerberus troops. They seem indoctrinated. Harbinger is much, much more of an individual thinking for himself, and gets quite emotional at times. Playing Arrival before the end of ME2 shows he likes pretending to be not himself.
Harby being the AI actually means he isn't making up everything at the end, he's only lying about being the Catalyst and what the Crucible does. He may be wrong about other things, like his views on organics and synthetics, but he isn't lying.
Fittingly, the only thing Leviathan seems to be lying about is the Crucible as well; though, I still don't know what to make of that.
RavenEyry wrote...
There's also that supposedly the citadel was added to the design at some point, meaning it wasn't there at the start. People started designing a power supply for the citadel rainbow gun without even knowing the citadel was involved?
Modifié par BleedingUranium, 31 août 2012 - 09:00 .
Can you show these? I haven't searched for anything in Leviathan so I don't know.BleedingUranium wrote...
RavenEyry wrote...
There's also that supposedly the citadel was added to the design at some point, meaning it wasn't there at the start. People started designing a power supply for the citadel rainbow gun without even knowing the citadel was involved?
It's hard enough to believe that the people building the thing, the smartest people in the galaxy, couldn't figure out what it does, or that the goddamn arms fit perfectly to the goddamn Presidium Ring! It's a mechanical device, I'm not sure it's even possible they couldn't know. Maybe not exactly, but at all?
But let's just assume they didn't. I'm going to say it's flatout impossible it could be a power source, as in, a thing that holds a bunch of energy and nothing else, and them think it was actually a device of any kind, one that does something! Wait, actually a whole bunch of the War Assets do directly contradict this, talking about helping certain things the Crucible does, and talking about it activating. Even some of the ones added in Leviathan!
plfranke wrote...
Can you show these? I haven't searched for anything in Leviathan so I don't know.BleedingUranium wrote...
RavenEyry wrote...
There's also that supposedly the citadel was added to the design at some point, meaning it wasn't there at the start. People started designing a power supply for the citadel rainbow gun without even knowing the citadel was involved?
It's hard enough to believe that the people building the thing, the smartest people in the galaxy, couldn't figure out what it does, or that the goddamn arms fit perfectly to the goddamn Presidium Ring! It's a mechanical device, I'm not sure it's even possible they couldn't know. Maybe not exactly, but at all?
But let's just assume they didn't. I'm going to say it's flatout impossible it could be a power source, as in, a thing that holds a bunch of energy and nothing else, and them think it was actually a device of any kind, one that does something! Wait, actually a whole bunch of the War Assets do directly contradict this, talking about helping certain things the Crucible does, and talking about it activating. Even some of the ones added in Leviathan!
Guest_SwobyJ_*
XXIceColdXX wrote...
BansheeOwnage wrote...
Yes. I acutally think that helps IT. Now everything in the last scene is represented by Shepard's memories. Shepard knows there is some kind of intelligence, and it is seen as the kid. I also think Harbinger is the "intelligence". It would be the first time he deceived you by appearing as someone he is not.XXIceColdXX wrote...
After going through Levi DLC again, the Leviathan does confirm the existence of an intelligence (catalyst), which is just how the Catalyst explains himself. But just because it is confirmed I don't think it disproves the IT theory.
What I thought was interesting was Levi's obvious hesitation to talk about the crucible, he definately knew more and thought carefully how to answer that question.
Im pretty certain Leviathan made it clear in the DLC, Harbinger was separate from the 'Intelligence' .
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