Guest_SwobyJ_*
plfranke wrote...
Guys! Leviathan says "Your mind belongs to me.... Breathe." The breath scene! It also shows that Shepard when he's in these hallucinations can't tell what's real or not, because he says, "Ann what's happening?"
He did refer to Harbinger as Harbinger and the Intelligence as the Intelligence. If that was what they were going for (assuming it isn't meant as a surprise reveal) they could have done a much better job with conveying that.SwobyJ wrote...
XXIceColdXX wrote...
BansheeOwnage wrote...
Yes. I acutally think that helps IT. Now everything in the last scene is represented by Shepard's memories. Shepard knows there is some kind of intelligence, and it is seen as the kid. I also think Harbinger is the "intelligence". It would be the first time he deceived you by appearing as someone he is not.XXIceColdXX wrote...
After going through Levi DLC again, the Leviathan does confirm the existence of an intelligence (catalyst), which is just how the Catalyst explains himself. But just because it is confirmed I don't think it disproves the IT theory.
What I thought was interesting was Levi's obvious hesitation to talk about the crucible, he definately knew more and thought carefully how to answer that question.
Im pretty certain Leviathan made it clear in the DLC, Harbinger was separate from the 'Intelligence' .
Where?
With the wording we were given, its imo plausable that:
1)AI started as AI
2)AI forms an organic 'resistance' against their Leviathan masters
3)AI betrays both sides and forces the organics to construct the first Reaper ship, and its first core made out of the Leviathan race
4)Harbinger needs intelligence right? Reaper code? etc? There's an AI for that.
Guest_SwobyJ_*
X086573 wrote...
does anyone else find it stupid that a child represents the apex of understanding throughout the galaxy?
Shepard's inability to tell when a situation just wasn't right was mind boggling in that dlc. That mining colony was obviously insane yet he just went around talking to people like it was no big deal.SwobyJ wrote...
plfranke wrote...
Guys! Leviathan says "Your mind belongs to me.... Breathe." The breath scene! It also shows that Shepard when he's in these hallucinations can't tell what's real or not, because he says, "Ann what's happening?"
That's important too. Shepard couldn't even TELL he was in a mind-whammy. I don't think he even KNEW until he 'woke up' in the Atlas-thing.
Guest_SwobyJ_*
XXIceColdXX wrote...
spotlessvoid wrote...
Leviathans created the Guardian who then created Harbinger by harvesting the Leviathans. If that's even the truth.
In the DLC Leviathan states that they created a 'intelligence' who is most likely the Catalyst as that is exactly how he described himself in the ending.
The 'Intelligence' created Harbinger.
BleedingUranium wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
I_eat_unicorns wrote...
byne wrote...
I_eat_unicorns wrote...
IT is a fan-fiction ending.
Except you have no proof of that, and the thread asking to move the IT thread to the fan creations forum got locked.
Anyhow, I'm tired as hell. Going to go to bed.
Nitpicking my posts and running away doesn't make you right. With the leviathan dlc actaully acknowleging the existence of the catalyst, Bioware is heading in a direction that hurts the mass effect universe. And regardless of whether IT is true or not, one thing is certain: it's not necessary for an alternate ending dlc. Quit hoping that it's the case and help the rest of the community make a plea for better endings, or answers as to why the ending was so bad to begin with if that's the best we can get.
Wait, no.
Leviathan talked of an AI. Never named it. Never claimed it took the Citadel as its home. Never even agreed with the 'Catalyst' that its mandate was to form synthetic and organic relations.
You know what Leviathan said?
-its an AI (no name)
-nothing about where it is located (in fact, the Citadel was created in cycles after the first Leviathan cycle)
-the AI's mandate was to 'preserve life at any cost'. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I'm still very inclined to believe that the AI is what later becomes Harbinger, forming the basis of Reaper code that we see in other Reapers, and then in EDI (ME2/3) and the Geth (ME3).
I am also of the mind that the AI is Harbinger. It was never said, or even implied, by Leviathan that he was or wasn't, but it very much fits with Harbinger's personality.
He's very different from Sovereign and the Destroyer on Rannoch, who, compared to Harbinger, seem kind of like the Leviathan controlled people in the mining facility, or Cerberus troops. They seem indoctrinated. Harbinger is much, much more of an individual thinking for himself, and gets quite emotional at times. Playing Arrival before the end of ME2 shows he likes pretending to be not himself.
Harby being the AI actually means he isn't making up everything at the end, he's only lying about being the Catalyst and what the Crucible does. He may be wrong about other things, like his views on organics and synthetics, but he isn't lying.
Fittingly, the only thing Leviathan seems to be lying about is the Crucible as well; though, I still don't know what to make of that.
The problem I have with this, is if that was the case, how did the very next cycle go on to defeat the Reapers? Did there just happen to be another person even greater than Shepard, I doubt it very seriously. I think we need a better reason why this cycle is the one to end the Reapers, and not just "LOL SHEPARD"SwobyJ wrote...
X086573 wrote...
does anyone else find it stupid that a child represents the apex of understanding throughout the galaxy?
Yeah the Reapers/Leviathans are actually pretty dumb.
They can't understand that hey, just sometimes, very notable people arise out of terrible situations and step up to the plate. Shepard is just Shepard, in the end. Not some experiment to look through the microscope at.
SwobyJ wrote...
Wait, no.
Leviathan talked of an AI. Never named it. Never claimed it took the Citadel as its home. Never even agreed with the 'Catalyst' that its mandate was to form synthetic and organic relations.
You know what Leviathan said?
-its an AI (no name)
-nothing about where it is located (in fact, the Citadel was created in cycles after the first Leviathan cycle)
-the AI's mandate was to 'preserve life at any cost'. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I'm still very inclined to believe that the AI is what later becomes Harbinger, forming the basis of Reaper code that we see in other Reapers, and then in EDI (ME2/3) and the Geth (ME3).
Very few people know they're dreaming until the dream ends. Chasing a child through a dark forest was rather nutty but Shep never goes 'Hey cool, a dream.'plfranke wrote...
Shepard's inability to tell when a situation just wasn't right was mind boggling in that dlc. That mining colony was obviously insane yet he just went around talking to people like it was no big deal.SwobyJ wrote...
plfranke wrote...
Guys! Leviathan says "Your mind belongs to me.... Breathe." The breath scene! It also shows that Shepard when he's in these hallucinations can't tell what's real or not, because he says, "Ann what's happening?"
That's important too. Shepard couldn't even TELL he was in a mind-whammy. I don't think he even KNEW until he 'woke up' in the Atlas-thing.
Yeah I said this a little earlier, I think it would make for an epic reveal. In the final dlc you get to ask the Child "Why haven't the Reapers rebelled against you" and then the music stops like it did when Illusive Man showed up earlier, the child turns to you and says in Harbinger's voice "I already did Shepard"XXIceColdXX wrote...
BleedingUranium wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
I_eat_unicorns wrote...
byne wrote...
I_eat_unicorns wrote...
IT is a fan-fiction ending.
Except you have no proof of that, and the thread asking to move the IT thread to the fan creations forum got locked.
Anyhow, I'm tired as hell. Going to go to bed.
Nitpicking my posts and running away doesn't make you right. With the leviathan dlc actaully acknowleging the existence of the catalyst, Bioware is heading in a direction that hurts the mass effect universe. And regardless of whether IT is true or not, one thing is certain: it's not necessary for an alternate ending dlc. Quit hoping that it's the case and help the rest of the community make a plea for better endings, or answers as to why the ending was so bad to begin with if that's the best we can get.
Wait, no.
Leviathan talked of an AI. Never named it. Never claimed it took the Citadel as its home. Never even agreed with the 'Catalyst' that its mandate was to form synthetic and organic relations.
You know what Leviathan said?
-its an AI (no name)
-nothing about where it is located (in fact, the Citadel was created in cycles after the first Leviathan cycle)
-the AI's mandate was to 'preserve life at any cost'. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I'm still very inclined to believe that the AI is what later becomes Harbinger, forming the basis of Reaper code that we see in other Reapers, and then in EDI (ME2/3) and the Geth (ME3).
I am also of the mind that the AI is Harbinger. It was never said, or even implied, by Leviathan that he was or wasn't, but it very much fits with Harbinger's personality.
He's very different from Sovereign and the Destroyer on Rannoch, who, compared to Harbinger, seem kind of like the Leviathan controlled people in the mining facility, or Cerberus troops. They seem indoctrinated. Harbinger is much, much more of an individual thinking for himself, and gets quite emotional at times. Playing Arrival before the end of ME2 shows he likes pretending to be not himself.
Harby being the AI actually means he isn't making up everything at the end, he's only lying about being the Catalyst and what the Crucible does. He may be wrong about other things, like his views on organics and synthetics, but he isn't lying.
Fittingly, the only thing Leviathan seems to be lying about is the Crucible as well; though, I still don't know what to make of that.
I think it would only be possible if Harbinger destroyed the AI at some point and pulled a Yahg style shodaw broker takeover on him.
The Leviathan makes it clear they created a 'intelligence' and that 'Intelligence' destroyed the leviathan race using pawns spread across the galaxy, then created the first reaper Harbinger from the essence of their species.
Guest_SwobyJ_*
plfranke wrote...
Leviathan also said that evolution is just a tool to the intelligence, yet the catalyst talks about it like it's some great thing.spotlessvoid wrote...
plfranke wrote...
I find it odd that Leviathan repeatedly states the goal of the intelligence is the preservation of life at any cost but the Catalyst never says this. His goal is to stop chaos, and stop synthetics from destroying organics.
And synthesis is the destruction of organic life.
Supposedly the next cycle used the crucible. So either the reapers got what they want or Bioware is shouting 'the crucible is so cool, why won't you love it?'plfranke wrote...
The problem I have with this, is if that was the case, how did the very next cycle go on to defeat the Reapers? Did there just happen to be another person even greater than Shepard, I doubt it very seriously. I think we need a better reason why this cycle is the one to end the Reapers, and not just "LOL SHEPARD"
The crucible is never said to be a power source either, it's said to be the device, the catalyst being the power source.spotlessvoid wrote...
Yeah, how do you build a power source to interact with something unknown? And why the heck does the citadel have these built in functions that need powering up?
So the crucible changes the citadel in a way nobody figures out ahead of time. How ****ing lucky huh?!
Or the citadel had this built in functionality already. Why the heck would the Reapers build a destroy option?
Or even control? Why not just follow instructions from organics if you're so hell bent on abdicating control?
This is causing injury to my brain. Must sleep it off
Guest_SwobyJ_*
plfranke wrote...
Yeah it's very odd that Leviathan does an "I was born in London" look when Shepard asks about it too.RavenEyry wrote...
A lot of people have said that from the start. It's one reason many people who go deeper than 'bad riting lol' think it's a trap or a test or something. You can make improvements on a design each cycle, but that would require the basic design from the start, which isn't what's implied and you'd need to know what it does anyway.spotlessvoid wrote...
What did the first cycle contribute to the crucible? A few pieces of plywood? Cycle 2 adds a sprocket? 842 cycles later it's the crucible?
Step 1: ????
Step 2: ????
Step 843: Crucible
Yah, how do you start building anything without a loose concept or directions?
Don't know what you're talking about. From the books?SwobyJ wrote...
plfranke wrote...
Yeah it's very odd that Leviathan does an "I was born in London" look when Shepard asks about it too.RavenEyry wrote...
A lot of people have said that from the start. It's one reason many people who go deeper than 'bad riting lol' think it's a trap or a test or something. You can make improvements on a design each cycle, but that would require the basic design from the start, which isn't what's implied and you'd need to know what it does anyway.spotlessvoid wrote...
What did the first cycle contribute to the crucible? A few pieces of plywood? Cycle 2 adds a sprocket? 842 cycles later it's the crucible?
Step 1: ????
Step 2: ????
Step 843: Crucible
Yah, how do you start building anything without a loose concept or directions?
There's a big piece of the puzzle mission for sure - literal or IT interpretation.
Anderson is curious. He picks Vega specifically to watch Shepard closely, and tells Joker to do the same, and I think he does even more than that.
He seems to know something we don't know. Maybe that camera feed of him meeting a Cerberus person is part of that?
Guest_SwobyJ_*
plfranke wrote...
Every cycle dedicates all their resources to it. Every cycle fails to build it. The sad thing is, I'm starting to think that Bioware meant the entire game to just be a big metaphor, only they failed to realize that the plot and impact of player choice of this game was much more important than any message their metaphor could send.BleedingUranium wrote...
plfranke wrote...
Yeah it's very odd that Leviathan does an "I was born in London" look when Shepard asks about it too.RavenEyry wrote...
A lot of people have said that from the start. It's one reason many people who go deeper than 'bad riting lol' think it's a trap or a test or something. You can make improvements on a design each cycle, but that would require the basic design from the start, which isn't what's implied and you'd need to know what it does anyway.spotlessvoid wrote...
What did the first cycle contribute to the crucible? A few pieces of plywood? Cycle 2 adds a sprocket? 842 cycles later it's the crucible?
Step 1: ????
Step 2: ????
Step 843: Crucible
Yah, how do you start building anything without a loose concept or directions?
I'm not sure how much for iffy the Crucible could be, past actually revealing it to be a trap...
You don't get it. Leviathans are eons ahead of others (at least they were according to what Levy says). They treat "lesser" species as you treat your home pets. In the case of the Reapers, well, they treat others like flies.SwobyJ wrote...
X086573 wrote...
does anyone else find it stupid that a child represents the apex of understanding throughout the galaxy?
Yeah the Reapers/Leviathans are actually pretty dumb.
They can't understand that hey, just sometimes, very notable people arise out of terrible situations and step up to the plate. Shepard is just Shepard, in the end. Not some experiment to look through the microscope at.
Modifié par paxxton, 31 août 2012 - 09:22 .
plfranke wrote...
The problem I have with this, is if that was the case, how did the very next cycle go on to defeat the Reapers? Did there just happen to be another person even greater than Shepard, I doubt it very seriously. I think we need a better reason why this cycle is the one to end the Reapers, and not just "LOL SHEPARD"SwobyJ wrote...
X086573 wrote...
does anyone else find it stupid that a child represents the apex of understanding throughout the galaxy?
Yeah the Reapers/Leviathans are actually pretty dumb.
They can't understand that hey, just sometimes, very notable people arise out of terrible situations and step up to the plate. Shepard is just Shepard, in the end. Not some experiment to look through the microscope at.
Lol I actually wanted to make losing to them my canon ending. I felt like a victory would be a total injustice to their character. Turned out, unless IT is true, I was very right.spotlessvoid wrote...
plfranke wrote...
The problem I have with this, is if that was the case, how did the very next cycle go on to defeat the Reapers? Did there just happen to be another person even greater than Shepard, I doubt it very seriously. I think we need a better reason why this cycle is the one to end the Reapers, and not just "LOL SHEPARD"SwobyJ wrote...
X086573 wrote...
does anyone else find it stupid that a child represents the apex of understanding throughout the galaxy?
Yeah the Reapers/Leviathans are actually pretty dumb.
They can't understand that hey, just sometimes, very notable people arise out of terrible situations and step up to the plate. Shepard is just Shepard, in the end. Not some experiment to look through the microscope at.
Anthropic principle kind of applies here. Humans are playing this game, so it happens in humanitys cycle, losing to Reapers isntfun, lol Shepard
Guest_SwobyJ_*
spotlessvoid wrote...
You mean they went from a player agency driven space opera to art house science fiction in 10 minutes? This series was never that deep. It has two blue alien chick love scenes for heavens sake. I just still find it difficult to believe they lost their collective sanity and writing ability at the end like that. While also losing all understanding of plot holes while simultaneously accidentally including lots of hints about something that just happens to be a central theme to the series.
I'm growing very impatient, but I'm not sold on horrible writing theory yet. It isn't even right to call it bad writing theory, it's monkeys slapping at a key board theory....but I definitely feel your pain, it's hard being stuck in limbo
Modifié par spotlessvoid, 31 août 2012 - 09:33 .
I agree, but the literal ending isn't deep, it's baffling and out of place. And everything new we learn about it makes it even more baffling. If bioware did **** up and were attempting to improve it, I don't see how they manage to make it worse everytime.SwobyJ wrote...
Actually I've found the series from the beginning to be something that attempts to straddle the line between fanservice and deep philosophy.
The asari = fanservice
Their 'embrace eternity' and curious placement in the galaxy = something deeper
And this is since ME1.
Guest_SwobyJ_*
plfranke wrote...
He did refer to Harbinger as Harbinger and the Intelligence as the Intelligence. If that was what they were going for (assuming it isn't meant as a surprise reveal) they could have done a much better job with conveying that.SwobyJ wrote...
XXIceColdXX wrote...
BansheeOwnage wrote...
Yes. I acutally think that helps IT. Now everything in the last scene is represented by Shepard's memories. Shepard knows there is some kind of intelligence, and it is seen as the kid. I also think Harbinger is the "intelligence". It would be the first time he deceived you by appearing as someone he is not.XXIceColdXX wrote...
After going through Levi DLC again, the Leviathan does confirm the existence of an intelligence (catalyst), which is just how the Catalyst explains himself. But just because it is confirmed I don't think it disproves the IT theory.
What I thought was interesting was Levi's obvious hesitation to talk about the crucible, he definately knew more and thought carefully how to answer that question.
Im pretty certain Leviathan made it clear in the DLC, Harbinger was separate from the 'Intelligence' .
Where?
With the wording we were given, its imo plausable that:
1)AI started as AI
2)AI forms an organic 'resistance' against their Leviathan masters
3)AI betrays both sides and forces the organics to construct the first Reaper ship, and its first core made out of the Leviathan race
4)Harbinger needs intelligence right? Reaper code? etc? There's an AI for that.
The problem is that there are larger problems in me3 than its ending. The ending has a chance to rectify these problems but if it failed then there are so many holes in the Mass Effect universe. As the game is now, Cerberus and TIM were assasinated in the 3rd game, ME2's plot was of absolutely no importance, The Crucible is a terrible plot device introduced way too late in the series, The Catalyst is an extension of a terrible deus ex machina and introduced in the last 10 minutes of the game, side quests, the list goes on and on. If IT isn't true, this game and sadly, the series, is a complete joke from a storytelling perspective.SwobyJ wrote...
spotlessvoid wrote...
You mean they went from a player agency driven space opera to art house science fiction in 10 minutes? This series was never that deep. It has two blue alien chick love scenes for heavens sake. I just still find it difficult to believe they lost their collective sanity and writing ability at the end like that. While also losing all understanding of plot holes while simultaneously accidentally including lots of hints about something that just happens to be a central theme to the series.
I'm growing very impatient, but I'm not sold on horrible writing theory yet. It isn't even right to call it bad writing theory, it's monkeys slapping at a key board theory....but I definitely feel your pain, it's hard being stuck in limbo
Actually I've found the series from the beginning to be something that attempts to straddle the line between fanservice and deep philosophy.
The asari = fanservice
Their 'embrace eternity' and curious placement in the galaxy = something deeper
And this is since ME1.
Ce sujet est fermé
Retour en haut
