80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

paxxton wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

paxxton wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

X086573 wrote...

does anyone else find it stupid that a child represents the apex of understanding throughout the galaxy?

Yeah the Reapers/Leviathans are actually pretty dumb.

They can't understand that hey, just sometimes, very notable people arise out of terrible situations and step up to the plate. Shepard is just Shepard, in the end. Not some experiment to look through the microscope at.

You don't get it. Leviathans are eons ahead of others (at least they were according to what Levy says). They treat "lesser" species as you treat your home pets. In the case of the Reapers, well, they treat others like flies.

I actually do.

However, they're wrong.

And that's why they're so damn curious about Shepard. How could this FLY, do what he is doing? Even with everything in his way? Even with (if we're right) indoctrination working its magic on him? Even with armies set against him?

Even Liara gets it, but these god beings, I guess, can't.

They encounter a previously unknown trait in a species they consider inferior and become curious. They try to learn what it is. Of course, they don't reach out to Shepard because given the war they don't want to be slaughtered by the Reapers. From their perspective, Shepard is a kind of guinea pig, intelligent (hence they talk to him) but nevertheless an object of study.

Also remember that they consider themselves gods. They may not have used that word, but they made an AI and told it to use any means necessary to save organic life, and they actually never thought that they could become involved in this, as in, be killed by it.

Leviathan was right when he said the AI did exactly what it was intended to do. They were just so arrogant they didn't consider themselves to be part of the universe.

[paxxton]

SwobyJ wrote...

paxxton wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

paxxton wrote...

No comment? Well, looking at things from different perspectives can bring greater understanding.

huh?

Seemed as if my post on interspecies relations was ignored.

...I've gone several pages back and I see nothing.

You've already answered to that post.

[paxxton]

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

paxxton wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

X086573 wrote...

does anyone else find it stupid that a child represents the apex of understanding throughout the galaxy?

Yeah the Reapers/Leviathans are actually pretty dumb.

They can't understand that hey, just sometimes, very notable people arise out of terrible situations and step up to the plate. Shepard is just Shepard, in the end. Not some experiment to look through the microscope at.

You don't get it. Leviathans are eons ahead of others (at least they were according to what Levy says). They treat "lesser" species as you treat your home pets. In the case of the Reapers, well, they treat others like flies.

I actually do.

However, they're wrong.

And that's why they're so damn curious about Shepard. How could this FLY, do what he is doing? Even with everything in his way? Even with (if we're right) indoctrination working its magic on him? Even with armies set against him?

Even Liara gets it, but these god beings, I guess, can't.

They encounter a previously unknown trait in a species they consider inferior and become curious. They try to learn what it is. Of course, they don't reach out to Shepard because given the war they don't want to be slaughtered by the Reapers. From their perspective, Shepard is a kind of guinea pig, intelligent (hence they talk to him) but nevertheless an object of study.

Also remember that they consider themselves gods. They may not have used that word, but they made an AI and told it to use any means necessary to save organic life, and they actually never thought that they could become involved in this, as in, be killed by it.

Leviathan was right when he said the AI did exactly what it was intended to do. They were just so arrogant they didn't consider themselves to be part of the universe.

http://www.youtube.c...osY2u6YU#t=126s jk

Modifié par paxxton, 31 août 2012 - 10:12 .

[spotlessvoid]

plfranke wrote...

What would be the reason for being so secretive? If they had a plan wouldn't it be better to tell us so we could stop worrying? Even giving any kind of a nod that better things are on the horizon

Maybe they think they have already

Still, it kind of seems like
"we're not answering"
"here's an answer"
"here's a completely different answer"
"we're not answering"

[RavenEyry]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Jovian Dissertation *Added in Leviathan*
This scientific data drwas conclusions about the gas giant Isale's exceptionally powerful magnetic field, which has complex interactions with those of its moons. The mathematics used to model this complexity can provide new insight into the math of the Prothean device. A brief glance at the data hints at some kind of energetic pulse that might pass through the magnetosphere of a planet unimpeded, but any details are best derived by high-energy physicists.

Is it me or does this just make it sound more like a mass indoctrination device as some have theorized?

[Gwyphon]

Leviathan [While in strange indoctrination dream thing which started with a reaper like horn, very clearly NOT reality]: "Your memory gives voice to our words."

Mike Gamble stated that the Guardian's lines are supposed to be composed from Shepard's memories... Uuuum? Is that enough to flag the ENTIRE ENDING?!

[spotlessvoid]

Gwyphon wrote...

Leviathan [While in strange indoctrination dream thing which started with a reaper like horn, very clearly NOT reality]: "Your memory gives voice to our words."

Mike Gamble stated that the Guardian's lines are supposed to be composed from Shepard's memories... Uuuum? Is that enough to flag the ENTIRE ENDING?!

Link on the Gamble thing please

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Leviathan [While in strange indoctrination dream thing which started with a reaper like horn, very clearly NOT reality]: "Your memory gives voice to our words."

Mike Gamble stated that the Guardian's lines are supposed to be composed from Shepard's memories... Uuuum? Is that enough to flag the ENTIRE ENDING?!

Link on the Gamble thing please

I think it was Chris Priestly during the World of Players chat.

[Gwyphon]

Blarg, double post.

Modifié par Gwyphon, 31 août 2012 - 10:27 .

[Gwyphon]

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Leviathan [While in strange indoctrination dream thing which started with a reaper like horn, very clearly NOT reality]: "Your memory gives voice to our words."

Mike Gamble stated that the Guardian's lines are supposed to be composed from Shepard's memories... Uuuum? Is that enough to flag the ENTIRE ENDING?!

Link on the Gamble thing please

I think it was Chris Priestly during the World of Players chat.

Yeah my bad Paxxton. Here it is. (halfway down the page.)

"The Catalyst's voice is partially formed from Shepard's memories, so his/her voice is part of the speech."

[spotlessvoid]

One thing I never completely understood was why the same Shepard fantasizing at the end of destroy as control and synthesis , if destroy is breaking free why does Shepard still have the wish fulfillment before the breath scene and why is it almost identical to the other two. What am I missing here?


Thanks Paxxton and Gwyphon. Not nearly as interesting if it's just the voice..still shows starchild can tap into Shepards brain though

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 31 août 2012 - 10:29 .

[Gwyphon]

spotlessvoid wrote...

One thing I never completely understood was why the same Shepard fantasizing at the end of destroy as control and synthesis , if destroy is breaking free why does Shepard still have the wish fulfillment before the breath scene and why is it almost identical to the other two. What am I missing here?


Thanks Paxxton and Gwyphon. Not nearly as interesting if it's just the voice..still shows starchild can tap into Shepards brain though

What's also interesting is that the Leviathan only chooses to represent itself with previous thralls (or indoctrinated), yet the end sequence has TiM AND Anderson. I guess it's not a far stretch for Anderson to be indoctrinated, but the hell everyone might as well be. We have to have atleast ONE sane person

[spotlessvoid]

Okay I have to catch some sleep. I'll read any response tomorrow

Gwyphon interesting point, but it doesn't really answer my question

[Gwyphon]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Okay I have to catch some sleep. I'll read any response tomorrow

Gwyphon interesting point, but it doesn't really answer my question

Oh yeah I god side tracked. My bad
I would guess at it being that it's when Shepard finally decides nothing adds up, or maybe it took time for Shepard's will to build strength. Or maybe, most likely, from a development stand point they had to add it in else the whole concept would be far too obvious.

I guess now it also could be the possibility of the Leviathan(s) kicking Harbinger out and maybe taking control themselves.


Also is it just me or does this and this kind of seem a little similar. Crazy Leviathan's wanting control...

[RavenEyry]

Theorizing that Anderson, James and/or Liara may be indoctrinated has happened a lot, though no conclusions were reached. There is new evidence for James now, since multiple people have commented he appears in a lab suddenly with little explanation.

[BleedingUranium]

Gwyphon wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

One thing I never completely understood was why the same Shepard fantasizing at the end of destroy as control and synthesis , if destroy is breaking free why does Shepard still have the wish fulfillment before the breath scene and why is it almost identical to the other two. What am I missing here?


Thanks Paxxton and Gwyphon. Not nearly as interesting if it's just the voice..still shows starchild can tap into Shepards brain though

What's also interesting is that the Leviathan only chooses to represent itself with previous thralls (or indoctrinated), yet the end sequence has TiM AND Anderson. I guess it's not a far stretch for Anderson to be indoctrinated, but the hell everyone might as well be. We have to have atleast ONE sane person

I think of that section of the end as just being a metaphor for the battle against indoctrination, and the descision room is a kind of seperate mind world, one that's like Leviathan's.

I doubt Anderson is indoctrinated simply because he's the mentor figure, he's who Shepard looks up to, that's why he's the symbol of of destroy in the descision room, and why he represents the free part of Shepard's mind. From a literary perspective, him being indoctrinated would ruin that.

[RavenEyry]

About that second 'born in London' comment where he gives a strange aside glance, does anyone else actually talk to Anderson in that scene? I was just wondering idly if he was actually travelling in a different transport and Shep's imagining him there.

[Mystical Taurus]

spotlessvoid wrote...

One thing I never completely understood was why the same Shepard fantasizing at the end of destroy as control and synthesis , if destroy is breaking free why does Shepard still have the wish fulfillment before the breath scene and why is it almost identical to the other two. What am I missing here?


Thanks Paxxton and Gwyphon. Not nearly as interesting if it's just the voice..still shows starchild can tap into Shepards brain though

It could be due to two seperate issues, namely cognitive ability and will.  By cognitive ability, I mean Shepard's concious awareness of what is going on, such as being able to recognize any hallucinations, dream figures, or images seen as figments in her mind.  In that, she clearly has difficulty, as evidenced by not recognizing Leviathan altering her perceptions, and thus initially thinking it really was Ann she was seeing as has already been pointed out.  So Shepard may end up seeing various hallucinatory wishes, even if destroy represents eventually breaking free.

The issue of the choices, as according to both IT-dream and IT-con, is will.  What is Shepard determined to do?  Shepard can believe the Catalyst's words and choose control or synthesis.  If the Catalyst is being truthful, then they potentially become valid ones.  But, of course both forms of IT argue for those being a trap, and thus destroy being the best way to go.

[Gwyphon]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

One thing I never completely understood was why the same Shepard fantasizing at the end of destroy as control and synthesis , if destroy is breaking free why does Shepard still have the wish fulfillment before the breath scene and why is it almost identical to the other two. What am I missing here?


Thanks Paxxton and Gwyphon. Not nearly as interesting if it's just the voice..still shows starchild can tap into Shepards brain though

What's also interesting is that the Leviathan only chooses to represent itself with previous thralls (or indoctrinated), yet the end sequence has TiM AND Anderson. I guess it's not a far stretch for Anderson to be indoctrinated, but the hell everyone might as well be. We have to have atleast ONE sane person

I think of that section of the end as just being a metaphor for the battle against indoctrination, and the descision room is a kind of seperate mind world, one that's like Leviathan's.

I doubt Anderson is indoctrinated simply because he's the mentor figure, he's who Shepard looks up to, that's why he's the symbol of of destroy in the descision room, and why he represents the free part of Shepard's mind. From a literary perspective, him being indoctrinated would ruin that.

Yeah that's exactly why I'm hesitant to commit to the idea, though drawing parallels to Leviathan would suggest just so. Though this may be irrelevant as Shepard still sees Anderson as his/her's spotless mentor. I'm just saying that it seems that the Leviathan could only protrey people they enthralled, maybe reaper indoctrination is the same. For this to be relevant, Anderson just needs to be indoctrinated without Shepard's knowledge. Surely from a practical standpoint Adnerson is a prime target for Indoctrination. But I'll stop now, I've got myself excited and I may be making too large leaps.

I'll just leave this for now. Definite parallels to the Guarding waking you up (specifically Shepard's pose on the ground, and Ann/Starbrat striding forward and standing directly over Shep). Also Shepard kind of sounds like a Chicken for a second...

Modifié par Gwyphon, 31 août 2012 - 10:58 .

[MaximizedAction]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

One thing I never completely understood was why the same Shepard fantasizing at the end of destroy as control and synthesis , if destroy is breaking free why does Shepard still have the wish fulfillment before the breath scene and why is it almost identical to the other two. What am I missing here?


Thanks Paxxton and Gwyphon. Not nearly as interesting if it's just the voice..still shows starchild can tap into Shepards brain though

What's also interesting is that the Leviathan only chooses to represent itself with previous thralls (or indoctrinated), yet the end sequence has TiM AND Anderson. I guess it's not a far stretch for Anderson to be indoctrinated, but the hell everyone might as well be. We have to have atleast ONE sane person

I think of that section of the end as just being a metaphor for the battle against indoctrination, and the descision room is a kind of seperate mind world, one that's like Leviathan's.

I doubt Anderson is indoctrinated simply because he's the mentor figure, he's who Shepard looks up to, that's why he's the symbol of of destroy in the descision room, and why he represents the free part of Shepard's mind. From a literary perspective, him being indoctrinated would ruin that.

However, having him being indoc'd wouldn't harm the mentor thing too much, because we already said goodbye to him in a way. Having him turn out okay would sort of render our emotional goodbye useless.

Then again, if he turned out indoc'd then we can't just shoot him and show no emotional attachment to him, even IF he's indoc'd.

spotlessvoid wrote...

Maybe they think they have already

Still, it kind of seems like
"we're not answering"
"here's an answer"
"here's a completely different answer"
"we're not answering"

Yeah, that's part of what's causing me to care less and less about what's really happening and what not and whether they'll reveal it or not. I mean, in the beginning all those double agenda statements were kind of a funny alternate reality game, now it's become like cry wolf.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 31 août 2012 - 11:03 .

[paxxton]

RavenEyry wrote...

About that second 'born in London' comment where he gives a strange aside glance, does anyone else actually talk to Anderson in that scene? I was just wondering idly if he was actually travelling in a different transport and Shep's imagining him there.

Coats acknowledges his "ghostly presence".

Modifié par paxxton, 31 août 2012 - 11:03 .

[XXIceColdXX]

From the Wiki

"The Intelligence's betrayal of its creators was sudden and devastating. Its pawns slaughtered most of the Leviathans, using their genetic material to create the very first Reaper, Harbinger, who was physically designed after the Leviathans themselves. The surviving Leviathans went into hiding, while the Intelligence used Harbinger to begin the cyclical harvest of the galaxy's species to create more Reapers, all in an effort to solve the problem of preserving life."

Im all for IT, but without any further reveals, it is clear that the 'Intelligence (catalyst)' and Harbinger are not the same.

Im also sure that the 'Intelligence' is in fact the catalyst and not just some other AI, in the ending the Catalyst refers to himself as a 'Intelligence'. It just fits.

Still even with Levi's information , I still find IT a valid interpretation, just needs to be tweaked a bit to account for the new information.

[Gwyphon]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

From the Wiki

"The Intelligence's betrayal of its creators was sudden and devastating. Its pawns slaughtered most of the Leviathans, using their genetic material to create the very first Reaper, Harbinger, who was physically designed after the Leviathans themselves. The surviving Leviathans went into hiding, while the Intelligence used Harbinger to begin the cyclical harvest of the galaxy's species to create more Reapers, all in an effort to solve the problem of preserving life."

Im all for IT, but without any further reveals, it is clear that the 'Intelligence (catalyst)' and Harbinger are not the same.

Im also sure that the 'Intelligence' is in fact the catalyst and not just some other AI, in the ending the Catalyst refers to himself as a 'Intelligence'. It just fits.

Still even with Levi's information , I still find IT a valid interpretation, just needs to be tweaked a bit to account for the new information.

Isn't the wiki written by the community?

[XXIceColdXX]

Gwyphon wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

From the Wiki

"The Intelligence's betrayal of its creators was sudden and devastating. Its pawns slaughtered most of the Leviathans, using their genetic material to create the very first Reaper, Harbinger, who was physically designed after the Leviathans themselves. The surviving Leviathans went into hiding, while the Intelligence used Harbinger to begin the cyclical harvest of the galaxy's species to create more Reapers, all in an effort to solve the problem of preserving life."

Im all for IT, but without any further reveals, it is clear that the 'Intelligence (catalyst)' and Harbinger are not the same.

Im also sure that the 'Intelligence' is in fact the catalyst and not just some other AI, in the ending the Catalyst refers to himself as a 'Intelligence'. It just fits.

Still even with Levi's information , I still find IT a valid interpretation, just needs to be tweaked a bit to account for the new information.

Isn't the wiki written by the community?

Yeah but its also pretty much exactly what Levi said in game.

[paxxton]

The Intelligence on the Citadel is fake.