80611 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenEyry]

The wiki just repeats what we've been told for reference, you can't use it to prove anything except arguments over solid facts.

[Gwyphon]

The Leviathan never strictly says, or even suggests that the AI integrated into Harbinger OR the Citadel. I think either is plausible, and both are equally probable.

[BleedingUranium]

MaximizedAction wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

One thing I never completely understood was why the same Shepard fantasizing at the end of destroy as control and synthesis , if destroy is breaking free why does Shepard still have the wish fulfillment before the breath scene and why is it almost identical to the other two. What am I missing here?


Thanks Paxxton and Gwyphon. Not nearly as interesting if it's just the voice..still shows starchild can tap into Shepards brain though

What's also interesting is that the Leviathan only chooses to represent itself with previous thralls (or indoctrinated), yet the end sequence has TiM AND Anderson. I guess it's not a far stretch for Anderson to be indoctrinated, but the hell everyone might as well be. We have to have atleast ONE sane person

I think of that section of the end as just being a metaphor for the battle against indoctrination, and the descision room is a kind of seperate mind world, one that's like Leviathan's.

I doubt Anderson is indoctrinated simply because he's the mentor figure, he's who Shepard looks up to, that's why he's the symbol of of destroy in the descision room, and why he represents the free part of Shepard's mind. From a literary perspective, him being indoctrinated would ruin that.

However, having him being indoc'd wouldn't harm the mentor thing too much, because we already said goodbye to him in a way. Having him turn out okay would sort of render our emotional goodbye useless.

Then again, if he turned out indoc'd then we can't just shoot him and show no emotional attachment to him, even IF he's indoc'd.

This is exactly why I'm so torn on the issue. It could go either way, and it would work well either way...

[MaximizedAction]

Gwyphon wrote...

The Leviathan never strictly says, or even suggests that the AI integrated into Harbinger OR the Citadel. I think either is plausible, and both are equally probable.

This!

Bioware stays ambiguous. While it would be plausible from a storytelling point: For those who played 'Leviathan', the reveal from Vendetta that the Citadel is the Catalyst would make the WTF moment when the Guardian presents himself as the Catalyst less WTF-y.

And from a more general point of view: if they adjust the story pre-ending too much to the pseudo-logic and lore-breaking that is presented in the ending, they would sort of make IT less of a possibility and necessity for some. And by that they would position themselves towards a certain side in the question that is IT or not IT.

Personally, I like that it remains un-explicit whether the AI is the Guardian or not. Might as well be Harbinger himself.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 31 août 2012 - 12:51 .

[Peytl]

I believe all the Leviathan DLC is in Shep's head, because when he gets out of the shuttle on 2181 Despoina, his weapon is changed for a while, even though he doesn't have the weapon equipped. It must be indoctrination!

[paxxton]

Peytl wrote...

I believe all the Leviathan DLC is in Shep's head, because when he gets out of the shuttle on 2181 Despoina, his weapon is changed for a while, even though he doesn't have the weapon equipped. It must be indoctrination!

That number 2181 seems fishy. 2183-2 = 2181. Obviously.  Might suggest an illusion. Or if you consider the relation between 2181 and 2183, it might point to the Leviathans preceding the Reapers (which is true, just trying to figure out the possible origin of the name from a writer's perspective). Also, Despoina isn't meaningless: http://dictionary.re...browse/despoina (see also Persephone linked from that entry).

Modifié par paxxton, 31 août 2012 - 01:45 .

[BatmanTurian]

Peytl wrote...

I believe all the Leviathan DLC is in Shep's head, because when he gets out of the shuttle on 2181 Despoina, his weapon is changed for a while, even though he doesn't have the weapon equipped. It must be indoctrination!

1/10 for effort

[paxxton]

Hello BatmanTurian. Haven't seen you around for ages.

[demersel]

Hello everyone! What's new?

A thought - from the Leviathan DLC we know that the Rachni wars might have happened, because Leviathans influenced the rachni to go to war against council space.
The salarians uplifted Krogan and used them against rachni.
Rachni wars are over.
Some time later - Krogan, the very thing that helped stop the Rachni, start the war against council space.
The salarians come up witth the geno****e to stop the krogan rebellions.
The only enemy of the leviathans - are reapers.

this suggests two thing - most likely, after they failed with rachni, leviathans simply tried the same thing with the krogan (who had most close interactions with rachni by the way)

Both times - it were the salarians who come up with the solution. More over - they are known to be medling, and experimens with everything, including the evolution. They are also the most secretive.
They are oasl othe ones, most hesistant to join the war.
They are also only ones of the council races who are not being attacked or harvested.
What is the main purpose of their facility on surcesh? Collect, and preserve + experiment on.
They are the best scientist's of this cycle.
Somewho it spells reapers for me.

There is certainly a huge story to tell there.

Modifié par demersel, 31 août 2012 - 01:59 .

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...
That number 2181 seems fishy. 2183-2 = 2181. Obviously. 

Please explain the thing with the numbers again. I don't get it. 

[Gwyphon]

Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting. Although I was under the impression that the Rachni were under reaper influence during the Rachni wars. I also thought the Salarian home word was heavily under reaper attack?

No matter it is VERY strange...

[demersel]

Gwyphon wrote...

Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting. Although I was under the impression that the Rachni were under reaper influence during the Rachni wars. I also thought the Salarian home word was heavily under reaper attack?

No matter it is VERY strange...

No. In the Leviathan DLC - states that it it most likely be leviathans. 

Salarian homeworld is NOT under reaper attack at all - they even don't bother to come into the system. 

There is lot of new info in the Leviathan DLC that is NOT in the conversation with him. In fact - the conversation with the leviathan is the most uninteresting and info poor part of it. So if you just watched the leviathan DLC on youtube - you mostlikely only seen the comversation part - and you really don't know the half of it.
(i'm not saying you personally - i don't know whether you played the DLc yoursefl, watched parts of it on youtube, or just heard people talking about it)

Modifié par demersel, 31 août 2012 - 02:13 .

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
That number 2181 seems fishy. 2183-2 = 2181. Obviously. 

Please explain the thing with the numbers again. I don't get it. 

A subjective feeling that 2181 being close to the year ME's story starts might bear some significance. Like it's not coincidental that Shepard sees that name. Maybe it's all an illusion created by the Leviathans (Shepard had contact with an unshielded artifact in Bryson's lab at the beginning of the DLC).

[BatmanTurian]

paxxton wrote...

Hello BatmanTurian. Haven't seen you around for ages.

I lurk these days. Not much to say until things get more clear.

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

Hello everyone! What's new?

A thought - from the Leviathan DLC we know that the Rachni wars might have happened, because Leviathans influenced the rachni to go to war against council space.
The salarians uplifted Krogan and used them against rachni.
Rachni wars are over.
Some time later - Krogan, the very thing that helped stop the Rachni, start the war against council space.
The salarians come up witth the geno****e to stop the krogan rebellions.
The only enemy of the leviathans - are reapers.

this suggests two thing - most likely, after they failed with rachni, leviathans simply tried the same thing with the krogan (who had most close interactions with rachni by the way)

Both times - it were the salarians who come up with the solution. More over - they are known to be medling, and experimens with everything, including the evolution. They are also the most secretive.
They are oasl othe ones, most hesistant to join the war.
They are also only ones of the council races who are not being attacked or harvested.
What is the main purpose of their facility on surcesh? Collect, and preserve + experiment on.
They are the best scientist's of this cycle.
Somewho it spells reapers for me.

There is certainly a huge story to tell there.

Why would the rachni controlled by Leviathans attack the Council races? I don't see any other reason besides depriving the Reapers of their "building material". Or seizing the Citadel and trapping the Reapers in dark space. But again if Leviathans were able to control the rachni, why not save the step and mind-control the Council races?

Modifié par paxxton, 31 août 2012 - 02:33 .

[paxxton]

BatmanTurian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Hello BatmanTurian. Haven't seen you around for ages.

I lurk these days. Not much to say until things get more clear.

Leviathan brought a few new pieces that need to be put in order with IT. Until a new SP DLC comes out in about 4-6 months (I guess), it's all we've got to speculate on.

[EpyonX3]

paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
That number 2181 seems fishy. 2183-2 = 2181. Obviously. 

Please explain the thing with the numbers again. I don't get it. 

A subjective feeling that 2181 being close to the year ME's story starts might bear some significance. Like it's not coincidental that Shepard sees that name. Maybe it's all an illusion created by the Leviathans (Shepard had contact with an unshielded artifact in Bryson's lab at the beginning of the DLC).

I thought it was the name it got based on the year it was discovered and hasn't been properly named yet?

I might be wrong.

[paxxton]

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
That number 2181 seems fishy. 2183-2 = 2181. Obviously. 

Please explain the thing with the numbers again. I don't get it. 

A subjective feeling that 2181 being close to the year ME's story starts might bear some significance. Like it's not coincidental that Shepard sees that name. Maybe it's all an illusion created by the Leviathans (Shepard had contact with an unshielded artifact in Bryson's lab at the beginning of the DLC).

I thought it was the name it got based on the year it was discovered and hasn't been properly named yet?

I might be wrong.

Yeah, but the actual name was given arbitrarily by the writers of the story. Also, it's name is Despoina (a daughter of Zeus and Demeter who lived in the underworld - a reference to Leviathan hiding deep in the ocean?).

Modifié par paxxton, 31 août 2012 - 02:49 .

[ZerebusPrime]

I continue to speculate that the Crucible is in fact of Leviathan design, that the Leviathans are waiting patiently for a cycle to use it correctly, and that Synthesis would in theory hand all life in the galaxy to the Leviathans on a silver platter.

EDIT: But that has nothing to do with indoctrination yet.  I'm still working on it.

Modifié par ZerebusPrime, 31 août 2012 - 02:59 .

[Gwyphon]

demersel wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting. Although I was under the impression that the Rachni were under reaper influence during the Rachni wars. I also thought the Salarian home word was heavily under reaper attack?

No matter it is VERY strange...

No. In the Leviathan DLC - states that it it most likely be leviathans. 

Salarian homeworld is NOT under reaper attack at all - they even don't bother to come into the system. 

There is lot of new info in the Leviathan DLC that is NOT in the conversation with him. In fact - the conversation with the leviathan is the most uninteresting and info poor part of it. So if you just watched the leviathan DLC on youtube - you mostlikely only seen the comversation part - and you really don't know the half of it.
(i'm not saying you personally - i don't know whether you played the DLc yoursefl, watched parts of it on youtube, or just heard people talking about it)

Yeah I played it but I was under the impression that there was no foreseeable pattern between rachni movements and and other Leviathan evidence via that whole CSI - Button Pusher. I, atleast, had to dismiss the Rachni evidence to get a lock on the Leviathan's position. Either way from where I sit the reapers and the leviathans are pretty much the same threat to the galaxy, just one more immediate than the other.

[Bill Casey]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

I continue to speculate that the Crucible is in fact of Leviathan design, that the Leviathans are waiting patiently for a cycle to use it correctly, and that Synthesis would in theory hand all life in the galaxy to the Leviathans on a silver platter.

EDIT: But that has nothing to do with indoctrination yet.  I'm still working on it.

Dr. Jelize, the asari scientist found on the research station in the Silean Nebula, was working on a paper that argued nanocircuitry could solve complex behavioral problems in commercial VIs. The doctor's theoretical work seems to be supported by data in the Crucible's blueprints. She now heads the department building the weapon's circuit boards.

Implications unpleasant...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 31 août 2012 - 03:10 .

[paxxton]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

I continue to speculate that the Crucible is in fact of Leviathan design, that the Leviathans are waiting patiently for a cycle to use it correctly, and that Synthesis would in theory hand all life in the galaxy to the Leviathans on a silver platter.

EDIT: But that has nothing to do with indoctrination yet.  I'm still working on it.

Possible considering how Leviathan suspiciously turns his eyes (and the camera shows it explicitly) when asked about the Crucible. That would be a major revelation in the whole story.

Modifié par paxxton, 31 août 2012 - 03:14 .

[paxxton]

Bill Casey wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

I continue to speculate that the Crucible is in fact of Leviathan design, that the Leviathans are waiting patiently for a cycle to use it correctly, and that Synthesis would in theory hand all life in the galaxy to the Leviathans on a silver platter.

EDIT: But that has nothing to do with indoctrination yet.  I'm still working on it.

Dr. Jelize, the asari scientist found on the research station in the Silean Nebula, was working on a paper that argued nanocircuitry could solve complex behavioral problems in commercial VIs. The doctor's theoretical work seems to be supported by data in the Crucible's blueprints. She now heads the department building the weapon's circuit boards.

Implications unpleasant...

That's huge! Why in the world did BioWare connect her work with the Crucible's blueprints? There is no such connection if it's a power source. If the Crucible is a weapon against the Reapers, it makes sense - taking control of them is possible.

Modifié par paxxton, 31 août 2012 - 03:22 .

[demersel]

Gwyphon wrote...

demersel wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting. Although I was under the impression that the Rachni were under reaper influence during the Rachni wars. I also thought the Salarian home word was heavily under reaper attack?

No matter it is VERY strange...

No. In the Leviathan DLC - states that it it most likely be leviathans. 

Salarian homeworld is NOT under reaper attack at all - they even don't bother to come into the system. 

There is lot of new info in the Leviathan DLC that is NOT in the conversation with him. In fact - the conversation with the leviathan is the most uninteresting and info poor part of it. So if you just watched the leviathan DLC on youtube - you mostlikely only seen the comversation part - and you really don't know the half of it.
(i'm not saying you personally - i don't know whether you played the DLc yoursefl, watched parts of it on youtube, or just heard people talking about it)

Yeah I played it but I was under the impression that there was no foreseeable pattern between rachni movements and and other Leviathan evidence via that whole CSI - Button Pusher. I, atleast, had to dismiss the Rachni evidence to get a lock on the Leviathan's position. Either way from where I sit the reapers and the leviathans are pretty much the same threat to the galaxy, just one more immediate than the other.

There was a connection. It just didn't relate with pinpointing the location of the mining facility. Or the current location of this particular leviathan. 

[ZerebusPrime]

paxxton wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

I continue to speculate that the Crucible is in fact of Leviathan design, that the Leviathans are waiting patiently for a cycle to use it correctly, and that Synthesis would in theory hand all life in the galaxy to the Leviathans on a silver platter.

EDIT: But that has nothing to do with indoctrination yet.  I'm still working on it.

Dr. Jelize, the asari scientist found on the research station in the Silean Nebula, was working on a paper that argued nanocircuitry could solve complex behavioral problems in commercial VIs. The doctor's theoretical work seems to be supported by data in the Crucible's blueprints. She now heads the department building the weapon's circuit boards.

Implications unpleasant...

That's huge! Why in the world did BioWare connect her work with the Crucible's blueprints? There is no such connection if it's a power source. If the Crucible is a weapon against the Reapers, it makes sense - taking control of them is possible.

As a weapon against the Reapers, the Crucible can be viewed as doing one of three things:
1. Outright wiping the Reapers out, destroying the Intelligence behind the Reapers and ending the malfunction.
2. Rewriting the Intelligence behind the Reapers, breaking the infinite loop and ending the malfunction at least temporarily.
3. Subverting the Reapers' technology to link all life within range of the mass relay network with unknown tech, which in turn accomplishes the goals of the Intelligence and causes it to stop malfunctioning.    ....and which may also create a giant QEC network that the Leviathans can reach into at will to enthrall anything and everything therein at will.

All of those outcomes benefit the Leviathans.



I also got to thinking about the indoctrination orbs we find throughout Mass Effect 1 and 2.  If those were Leviathan devices, then somehow those spheres are able to huskify people (sometimes without directing them to use spikes, IIRC).  A short range version of the Synthesis energy wave originating from such a sphere may be one way to do that.