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[BansheeOwnage]

TSA_383 wrote...


Doh well.

Post you thoughts about Leviathan and IT.

Edit: Yes! I'm on top again! Take it Estebanus(ister)

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 31 août 2012 - 06:50 .

[BansheeOwnage]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Guys! Leviathan says "Your mind belongs to me.... Breathe." The breath scene! It also shows that Shepard when he's in these hallucinations can't tell what's real or not, because he says, "Ann what's happening?"

Not a bad point! Shep definately didnt know what was happening till Levi started talking in his deep reaperesk voice.

Repost for justice. To add, the same thing may happen in the end.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 31 août 2012 - 06:57 .

[paxxton]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Guys! Leviathan says "Your mind belongs to me.... Breathe." The breath scene! It also shows that Shepard when he's in these hallucinations can't tell what's real or not, because he says, "Ann what's happening?"

Not a bad point! Shep definately didnt know what was happening till Levi started talking in his deep reaperesk voice.

Repost for justice.

Uhm... He speaks in that voice all the time. Maybe Shepard didn't notice it was coming from Ann. It's strange.

[BansheeOwnage]

paxxton wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Guys! Leviathan says "Your mind belongs to me.... Breathe." The breath scene! It also shows that Shepard when he's in these hallucinations can't tell what's real or not, because he says, "Ann what's happening?"

Not a bad point! Shep definately didnt know what was happening till Levi started talking in his deep reaperesk voice.

Repost for justice.

Uhm... He speaks in that voice all the time. Maybe Shepard didn't notice it was coming from Ann. It's strange.

I think he ment Shep thought it was actually Ann until "she" started talking. Same thin applies to the end, just much later. I edited my above post.

[TJBartlemus]

 Hmm...further analysis of Leviathan kicking shepard into his/her mind....found some noticable things.

1- The process of the in RW, then mind, then RW happens a lot of times.
2- For at least for the 1st half, Shepard never loses full conscienceness and appears to be shaken but still awake when it shows the RW. 
3- The process causes blood to come from Sheps nose. Possible brain hemorrage. 

For 1 and 2 I feel this suggests / hints quite strongly in the direction of WNT. I mean really strongly. If anything it definitely proves the concept in a way. For #3...I don't know. Have we seen evidence of #3 in London anywhere??

[paxxton]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Guys! Leviathan says "Your mind belongs to me.... Breathe." The breath scene! It also shows that Shepard when he's in these hallucinations can't tell what's real or not, because he says, "Ann what's happening?"

Not a bad point! Shep definately didnt know what was happening till Levi started talking in his deep reaperesk voice.

Repost for justice.

Uhm... He speaks in that voice all the time. Maybe Shepard didn't notice it was coming from Ann. It's strange.

I think he ment Shep thought it was actually Ann until "she" started talking. Same thin applies to the end, just much later. I edited my above post.

I saw that smiley.  (a couple of months ago ). But it's weird that Shepard as if only for a brief moment loses his grasp on reality.

Modifié par paxxton, 31 août 2012 - 07:08 .

[legaldinho]

Leviathan has brought me back to conventional dream theory.

Leviathan final scene draws parallels with the catalyst scene. Shepard on his knees, unconscious. Is taken somewhere else, since there is no suit, the entity taking him there takes the form of someone from his memory. Someone it has controlled before.

We see a rare glimpse of "real" shepard as this happens- passed out, nose bleed.

When Shepard is first "kicked out of his own head", he fails to realise what is happening. He sees Ann, he addresses her as "Ann? What's happening". That's despite the fact that she has just said to him, in Levvy's voice "Your mind belongs to me. Breathe"

This is the start of mind control. Shepard is on all fours, prostrate in front of the one who would enslave his mind. He shakes his head, his antagonist walks towards him ( sideways camera angle) then shep gets up.

Same exact scene, though mirrored, from the scene with reaperbieber. On all fours, shakes head, gets up.

Note the "dream scene" white flakes in the background. Those don't look like bubbles, eh.

So for me, Leviathan confirms that the "decision chamber" scene happens inside Shepard's head. Or perhaps more aptly, outside his head... They're not real. So much is constructed from memory: the mako tyres, the synthesis beam. The planet above his head (from the scenes of his death in ME2). Levvy is explicit about using Shepard's own memory.

Where the "unreality" begins, is debatable. For me it is the conduit run. I doubt it can be before that.

So hallucination theory was right after all. Except the catalyst is real. There really is an intelligence that controls the reapers. And it really is trying to come up with a solution. It is indoctrinating you into choosing synthesis, the only alternative it has seen to the reapers. What it does with you after you choose it (ie enter the conduit beam to go up to the citadel), heaven knows. But it has a willing, indoctrinated shepard to use, not as a tool of the reapers, but as its tool to end the cycle.

Control is a false choice. Control is a weak minded, unwilling shepard who is but another TIM.

Destroy is a useless choice to the catalyst. Of course it will not let you destroy them. The indoctrination attempt has failed.

I would say the same for refuse but for the breath scene not appearing. Handbags by Bioware, I think. Refuse is as defiant as destroy. I prefer destroy because my shep can't know it's an indoctrination attempt. He's confused. He's sure about two things: i) there's no way you're going to talk me into forcing some kind of genetic or consciousness alteration on all sentient beings in the galaxy, it's grotesque and ii) there's no way you're talking me into doing what I just talked TIM out of doing. In case destroy actually works as advertised, he chooses destroy. Sorry geths and EDI. Sorry also Mordin, Kaidan, Legion, Thane, and countless others, who died to get him there.

[BansheeOwnage]

BleedingUranium wrote...

I am also of the mind that the AI is Harbinger. It was never said, or even implied, by Leviathan that he was or wasn't, but it very much fits with Harbinger's personality.

He's very different from Sovereign and the Destroyer on Rannoch, who, compared to Harbinger, seem kind of like the Leviathan controlled people in the mining facility, or Cerberus troops. They seem indoctrinated. Harbinger is much, much more of an individual thinking for himself, and gets quite emotional at times. Playing Arrival before the end of ME2 shows he likes pretending to be not himself.

Harby being the AI actually means he isn't making up everything at the end, he's only lying about being the Catalyst and what the Crucible does. He may be wrong about other things, like his views on organics and synthetics, but he isn't lying.

Fittingly, the only thing Leviathan seems to be lying about is the Crucible as well; though, I still don't know what to make of that.

Repost for further justice!

[TSA_383]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...


Doh well.

Post you thoughts about Leviathan and IT.

Edit: Yes! I'm on top again! Take it Estebanus(ister)

It was awesome for IT.

I believe the exact quote from Leviathan was "Your memories will give voice to our words" - or something similar.

We know that the catalyst at the end is made up of Shepard's memories, the devs have said as much.

Is there any more that really needs said? 

By the by, I fraps'd the whole underwater scene including the conversation at 1080p and 60fps. If anyone is interested I can upload it 

[TJBartlemus]

 Fun fact guys. Just found out WNT is also a signaling pathway in cells.

"The Wnt signaling pathway is a network of proteins that passes signals from receptors on the surface of the cell to DNA expression in the nucleus. It controls cell-cell communication in the embryo and adult."

Just something interesting to think about. 

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 31 août 2012 - 07:13 .

[BansheeOwnage]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Yeah, how do you build a power source to interact with something unknown? And why the heck does the citadel have these built in functions that need powering up?

So the crucible changes the citadel in a way nobody figures out ahead of time. How ****ing lucky huh?!

Or the citadel had this built in functionality already. Why the heck would the Reapers build a destroy option?
Or even control? Why not just follow instructions from organics if you're so hell bent on abdicating control?


This is causing injury to my brain. Must sleep it off

LOL so true.

[BansheeOwnage]

TSA_383 wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...


Doh well.

Post you thoughts about Leviathan and IT.

Edit: Yes! I'm on top again! Take it Estebanus(ister)

It was awesome for IT.

I believe the exact quote from Leviathan was "Your memories will give voice to our words" - or something similar.

We know that the catalyst at the end is made up of Shepard's memories, the devs have said as much.

Is there any more that really needs said? 

By the by, I fraps'd the whole underwater scene including the conversation at 1080p and 60fps. If anyone is interested I can upload it 

It could be useful. I'm assuming you use the registered version of Fraps? I need to get recording software.

[FFZero]

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Hmm...further analysis of Leviathan kicking shepard into his/her mind....found some noticable things.

1- The process of the in RW, then mind, then RW happens a lot of times.
2- For at least for the 1st half, Shepard never loses full conscienceness and appears to be shaken but still awake when it shows the RW. 
3- The process causes blood to come from Sheps nose. Possible brain hemorrage. 

For 1 and 2 I feel this suggests / hints quite strongly in the direction of WNT. I mean really strongly. If anything it definitely proves the concept in a way. For #3...I don't know. Have we seen evidence of #3 in London anywhere??

Well Shepard does wake up with a nose bleed after Harby’s attack.

[BansheeOwnage]

plfranke wrote...

I doubt very seriously they are going to make Harbinger, just another Reaper controlled by the Catalyst. By introducing him as the face of the primary antognist and now labeling him as the oldest and most powerful Reaper, they are clearly setting him apart from the rest. Btw does the Rannoch Reaper convo change if you've done Leviathan? It should, because it would be pretty stupid to ask why they're doing this when you already know.

I know! Harbinger is really important! It would fit so perfectly if he was the "catalyst"! Plus it's the only good excuse for not having him say anything in ME3. It does 2 things:
1. You forget about him, like Saren wanting synthesis.
2. If he spoke, you would probably remember him taunting you repeatedly = not trusting reapers. In addition to that, if you played Arrival, you would remember a very important line from there. STRUGGLE IF YOU WISH, WOUR MIND WILL BE MINE.

[BansheeOwnage]

FFZero wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Hmm...further analysis of Leviathan kicking shepard into his/her mind....found some noticable things.

1- The process of the in RW, then mind, then RW happens a lot of times.
2- For at least for the 1st half, Shepard never loses full conscienceness and appears to be shaken but still awake when it shows the RW. 
3- The process causes blood to come from Sheps nose. Possible brain hemorrage. 

For 1 and 2 I feel this suggests / hints quite strongly in the direction of WNT. I mean really strongly. If anything it definitely proves the concept in a way. For #3...I don't know. Have we seen evidence of #3 in London anywhere??

Well Shepard does wake up with a nose bleed after Harby’s attack.

Holycrapyou'reright! Knew it looked familiar!

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 31 août 2012 - 07:18 .

[FFZero]

Another thing in Leviathan that I found interesting were the experiments being run in the mine, particularly the experiment to do with Turian pain thresholds and bringing on psychosis. People suffering from psychosis can suffer from hallucinations and delusions. Now why does that sound familiar...oh yeah, the effects of indoctrination.

[TJBartlemus]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I am also of the mind that the AI is Harbinger. It was never said, or even implied, by Leviathan that he was or wasn't, but it very much fits with Harbinger's personality.

He's very different from Sovereign and the Destroyer on Rannoch, who, compared to Harbinger, seem kind of like the Leviathan controlled people in the mining facility, or Cerberus troops. They seem indoctrinated. Harbinger is much, much more of an individual thinking for himself, and gets quite emotional at times. Playing Arrival before the end of ME2 shows he likes pretending to be not himself.

Harby being the AI actually means he isn't making up everything at the end, he's only lying about being the Catalyst and what the Crucible does. He may be wrong about other things, like his views on organics and synthetics, but he isn't lying.

Fittingly, the only thing Leviathan seems to be lying about is the Crucible as well; though, I still don't know what to make of that.

Repost for further justice!

It would certainly make more sense for that intelligence would be in Harbinger. First off. What leader would want to be trapped away only signalling to his soldiers instead of being on the front lines with his troops?!?! Any good leader would be with his troops all the way through the war. So it would make more sense for the "Catalyst" to have made a body and placed its intelligence into it like EDI did. Things also can have many names as we have seen through mythology and in game lore. Like Sovereign. It was also named Nazara. 

2nd. All the Reapers are modeled off of Harbinger. (which was modeled after Leviathans but not the point) I remember another evil leader that wanted his troops / people to resemble a certain way. Hmmm....Hitler maybe? So why wouldn't Harbinger want his troops to appear like he did or at least similarly?  

[RavenEyry]

There's a child on the board of murders although I can't tell if it's Creepy McBlownup.

I'm gonna keep reposting this til someone replies.

[Rifneno]

Where's Arian? We haven't been assaulted by a Great Wall of Text lately.

[legaldinho]

RavenEyry wrote...

There's a child on the board of murders although I can't tell if it's Creepy McBlownup.

I'm gonna keep reposting this til someone replies.

It's been mentioned before. The child has got his back to the camera, so hard to tell. Also seems to be darker haired than bieber, but hey.

[TJBartlemus]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

FFZero wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Hmm...further analysis of Leviathan kicking shepard into his/her mind....found some noticable things.

1- The process of the in RW, then mind, then RW happens a lot of times.
2- For at least for the 1st half, Shepard never loses full conscienceness and appears to be shaken but still awake when it shows the RW. 
3- The process causes blood to come from Sheps nose. Possible brain hemorrage. 

For 1 and 2 I feel this suggests / hints quite strongly in the direction of WNT. I mean really strongly. If anything it definitely proves the concept in a way. For #3...I don't know. Have we seen evidence of #3 in London anywhere??

Well Shepard does wake up with a nose bleed after Harby’s attack.

Holycrapyou'reright! Knew it looked familiar!

[jgibson14352]

if the created always rebel against their creators shouldnt the reapers have rebelled against the AI?


this is probably nothing but still

Modifié par jgibson14352, 31 août 2012 - 07:27 .

[Rifneno]

legaldinho wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

There's a child on the board of murders although I can't tell if it's Creepy McBlownup.

I'm gonna keep reposting this til someone replies.

It's been mentioned before. The child has got his back to the camera, so hard to tell. Also seems to be darker haired than bieber, but hey.

Citadel lawyer: Look kid, if you take this plea bargin it'll save you a lot of jail time.
Starbinger: You can't save me...
Citadel laywer: Stop saying that!  It doesn't make any sense!

[Dwailing]

TJBartlemus wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

FFZero wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Hmm...further analysis of Leviathan kicking shepard into his/her mind....found some noticable things.

1- The process of the in RW, then mind, then RW happens a lot of times.
2- For at least for the 1st half, Shepard never loses full conscienceness and appears to be shaken but still awake when it shows the RW. 
3- The process causes blood to come from Sheps nose. Possible brain hemorrage. 

For 1 and 2 I feel this suggests / hints quite strongly in the direction of WNT. I mean really strongly. If anything it definitely proves the concept in a way. For #3...I don't know. Have we seen evidence of #3 in London anywhere??

Well Shepard does wake up with a nose bleed after Harby’s attack.

Holycrapyou'reright! Knew it looked familiar!

And of all the things that Shepard could wake up with after getting blasted by Harby, a nose bleed seems a little strange.  I mean, such a "clean" nose bleed, anyway.  After a blast like that, if Shep was going to have a nose bleed, you'd think he'd be bleed much more profusely than just that little trickle.

[RavenEyry]

legaldinho wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

There's a child on the board of murders although I can't tell if it's Creepy McBlownup.

I'm gonna keep reposting this til someone replies.

It's been mentioned before. The child has got his back to the camera, so hard to tell. Also seems to be darker haired than bieber, but hey.

Glad everyone knows then, I missed the discussion and was ignored the last two times I mentioned it.