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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#16876
FFZero

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plfranke wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

FFZero wrote...

From what I can tell it it doesn’t sound like Leviathan has sold that well, and fan reaction has pretty much amounted to ‘meh, it’s okay’. I know it’s still early days and a lot more people could buy the DLC now that it’s out and there are reviews for it but even IGN have said it’s just meh and you know something has gone wrong if IGN can’t sing praises about it.

Right now I can see ME3 going the way of DA2. Maybe one or two SP DLC’s then dropped for the next project because of lack of interest. Omega DLC is going to have to frakking amazing at this rate and Bioware are going to have to do something with the endings whether it's making something like IT happen or allowing a conventional victory.


Also, that random tweet by Patrick Weekes:
twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/240653412281233408

See I think that's just wrong. It's like they're trying to put the blame on the fans. We've already told them what we want and they refuse to give it to us lol


They do seem to be very stubborn about the ending, which I find odd. At the end of the day Bioware is a company, profit will trump artistic integrity every time. If fans are not buying their products because of a rubbish ending then logically you will give the fans what they want, it’s business 101, supply and demand.  Yet they’re not budging an inch, which either means they have a grand master plan to do with the endings or Bioware is being run by absolute morons whose arrogance overshadows their common sense.

#16877
Arashi08

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paxxton wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

sooo...all this talk of Leviathan and the way it views it's thralls got me thinking...

Do you think it is possible to create a story whereby there is a certain sentient culture that uses another sentient culture as their livestock, but doesn't consider this species inferior to their own, nor do they consider themselves superior to their "cattle," and STILL make a convincing, well thought out, and overall GOOD story?

Of course. Just read the news. Posted Image


The news isn't a story, the news is commentary on an event.  imo a "story" is a fictional work that relies on a premise and themes, which are illustrated by an event and incidents in the setting the story takes place.  We have names for alot of things we call "stories" today, but we only have one for the real use of the word "story."  You might also call it fiction, but to me "fiction" is just one aspect that makes a story.

I personally feel that we, as a "modern" culture, have forgotten what it means to actually tell a story and tell it well, why else would there be so much crap in the media that had no substance?

Again, this is all my opinion, just making that clear...

My answer was rather humorous than serious.

I'd like to read such a story. Might be something new. But isn't "Animal Farm" something like that.


I know, I saw the smiley Posted Image, but it gave me a good chance to give my two cents about stories and how I think we as a culture, have devalued them.  It's my damn soapbox again lol

It might be, but I've never read Animal Farm so I have no idea, but my story idea likely has nothing to do with it, except MAYBE share similar themes, but again, since I've never read it idk.

#16878
Rifneno

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I wonder if it's too early for a "Cthulhu deserves a better ending; tribute does not flow from a dead fanbase" sig.

#16879
demersel

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I think we give the leviathans itself to much attention - really interesting things start to surfice, when you examine the events of ME1, ME2 and ME3 with the info we got in the leviathan DLC (not just about the leviathans).

#16880
spotlessvoid

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Rifneno wrote...

I wonder if it's too early for a "Cthulhu deserves a better ending; tribute does not flow from a dead fanbase" sig.



This. ****ing this.

#16881
demersel

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Ok. Who is here? I need I live conversation to make it work, cause I am to lazy and agitated to outline the whole theory i have just by composing a huge detailed post.

#16882
jgibson14352

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FFZero wrote...

They do seem to be very stubborn about the ending, which I find odd. At the end of the day Bioware is a company, profit will trump artistic integrity every time. If fans are not buying their products because of a rubbish ending then logically you will give the fans what they want, it’s business 101, supply and demand.  Yet they’re not budging an inch, which either means they have a grand master plan to do with the endings or Bioware is being run by absolute morons whose arrogance overshadows their common sense.


..............EA...........

#16883
Arashi08

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I still don't think the Leviathan's took control of the Rachni. They were trying to HIDE from the Reapers. Idk if they knew that Reapers left vanguards in the galaxy after every cycle, but I doubt they would've taken the chance. Plus, considering that the Rachni Queen mentions the "sour yellow note" each time you speak to her, the second time definitely referring to Reaper indoctrination signals. it seems much more likely that the Reapers, likely Sovereign, had them indoctrinated, or at least the children, since the queen mentions "hearing mother cry in (her) dreams." possibly indicating that queens are unaffected by indoctrination and the queens were mourning the loss of their children to the "sour note."

I know the DLC linked up that possibility, but to me, there just isn't enough evidence FOR the leviathan enthrallment theory. in all three games the clues all seem to point more to the Reapers being involved. After all, indoctrination doesn't necessarily require reaper implants and nanides.

#16884
desert_beagle

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I have been having problems getting points for my xbox account so I haven't played Leviathan. Then I just read a synopsis, and I have to say that this seems like more of a "cutting room floor" DLC than an actual addition to the game. Know what I mean?

I think that story wise it would have been fine if it had been part of the full game experience from the start. After having played the game now, seen the ending, seen the EC ending, and reading Leviathan's story, I still feel like BioWare released half a game with ME3.

The only way to fix it is for BioWare to just embrace the IT, give us what we are actually asking for, and move on from there. Is it really that hard?

#16885
FFZero

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jgibson14352 wrote...

FFZero wrote...

They do seem to be very stubborn about the ending, which I find odd. At the end of the day Bioware is a company, profit will trump artistic integrity every time. If fans are not buying their products because of a rubbish ending then logically you will give the fans what they want, it’s business 101, supply and demand.  Yet they’re not budging an inch, which either means they have a grand master plan to do with the endings or Bioware is being run by absolute morons whose arrogance overshadows their common sense.


..............EA...........



But that’s just it, EA right now are in a financial mess, their stocks are down and their profit margins aren’t exactly good. Bioware and the Mass Effect series are one of EA’s biggest earners. If they see an idea for DLC that can be exploited they will take it. IT, or any ending based DLC, would be a pretty much guaranteed money earner right now, yet they’re not doing anything with it. Boggles my mind as to what’s going on here.

#16886
desert_beagle

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FFZero wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

FFZero wrote...

They do seem to be very stubborn about the ending, which I find odd. At the end of the day Bioware is a company, profit will trump artistic integrity every time. If fans are not buying their products because of a rubbish ending then logically you will give the fans what they want, it’s business 101, supply and demand.  Yet they’re not budging an inch, which either means they have a grand master plan to do with the endings or Bioware is being run by absolute morons whose arrogance overshadows their common sense.


..............EA...........



But that’s just it, EA right now are in a financial mess, their stocks are down and their profit margins aren’t exactly good. Bioware and the Mass Effect series are one of EA’s biggest earners. If they see an idea for DLC that can be exploited they will take it. IT, or any ending based DLC, would be a pretty much guaranteed money earner right now, yet they’re not doing anything with it. Boggles my mind as to what’s going on here.


Amen

#16887
Rifneno

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I too believe that the rachni were indoctrinated by Sovereign. We don't know how long the Protheans delayed this cycle by messing with the keepers. Vigil said centuries were likely, I believe. I think the plan was simple: exhaust our resources and military power by causing a massive war between organics before the Reapers arrive. Indoctrinate the rachni, use them against the Council races, once everyone's weakened then open the relay. Only the relay wouldn't open when Sovereign tried to open it. The rachni plan was for naught.

#16888
spotlessvoid

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demersel wrote...

Ok. Who is here? I need I live conversation to make it work, cause I am to lazy and agitated to outline the whole theory i have just by composing a huge detailed post.

Do it anyways

#16889
Hrothdane

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Arashi08 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

sooo...all this talk of Leviathan and the way it views it's thralls got me thinking...

Do you think it is possible to create a story whereby there is a certain sentient culture that uses another sentient culture as their livestock, but doesn't consider this species inferior to their own, nor do they consider themselves superior to their "cattle," and STILL make a convincing, well thought out, and overall GOOD story?

Of course. Just read the news. Posted Image


The news isn't a story, the news is commentary on an event.  imo a "story" is a fictional work that relies on a premise and themes, which are illustrated by an event and incidents in the setting the story takes place.  We have names for alot of things we call "stories" today, but we only have one for the real use of the word "story."  You might also call it fiction, but to me "fiction" is just one aspect that makes a story.

I personally feel that we, as a "modern" culture, have forgotten what it means to actually tell a story and tell it well, why else would there be so much crap in the media that had no substance?

Again, this is all my opinion, just making that clear...


I think we just forgot how many crappy stories there used to be. The single most important lesson I learned from years of studying history and hanging out with history majors and reenactors is that yes, the present sucks, but the past sucked at least twice as much. It's quite a sobering thought.

Think about all the ****ty reality TV you see nowadays. How much of that will actually be remembered by your children? How much of it will YOU remember in twenty years? The "golden age of television" had tons of crap game shows, variety programs, and just plain morely written crap that nobody remembers because they don't WANT to remember.

Try watching TCM during the morning and early afternoon, when they play all the movies people forgot. You will see lots of overblown melodrama, every film will use PARAGRAPHS OF TEXT for exposition, and the camera will be so immobile that the director is essentially filming a theater performance.

You should watch the film Midnight in Paris; it addresses this very issue and is VERY entertaining if you have a working knowledge of early twentieth century writers and artists. It may be my favorite Woody Allen film.

To bring this back into the topic of Mass Effect, even though we got stuck with a crappy ending and all kinds of problems in the storytelling methods of the third game, the games themselves pushed the expectations of storytelling in video games to another level. The huge fan outcry against Final Fantasy XIII's totally linear story and gameplay would not have happened ten years ago before games like Mass Effect. The execution may not have been perfect by any means, but Mass Effect pushed the boundaries and showed gamers what COULD be achieved.

I never felt as attached to a character in ANY medium as I do to my Shepard, and many appear to agree. That BioWare drew in the audience to such an extent that they would revolt so emphatically and universally because of the game ending is unprecedented. Even if Mass Effect and BioWare end up being lost causes, the rest of the industry has an opening to take over and do it right. While player agency and choice have already become watchwords in the RPG genre, we can already see the development of increased player interaction in other genres as well.

I'm excited for the future of storytelling in the game industry for these very reasons. I've been going back and forth for many years on which direction I should take my creative efforts, and seeing the storytelling potential in Mass Effect made it crystal clear that storytelling in gaming has a bright future, one that I hope to help create personally. If and when I get the chance to make my own game on the scale of Mass Effect, I will definitely put the lessons learned from the experience into play.

#16890
jgibson14352

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FFZero wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

FFZero wrote...

They do seem to be very stubborn about the ending, which I find odd. At the end of the day Bioware is a company, profit will trump artistic integrity every time. If fans are not buying their products because of a rubbish ending then logically you will give the fans what they want, it’s business 101, supply and demand.  Yet they’re not budging an inch, which either means they have a grand master plan to do with the endings or Bioware is being run by absolute morons whose arrogance overshadows their common sense.


..............EA...........



But that’s just it, EA right now are in a financial mess, their stocks are down and their profit margins aren’t exactly good. Bioware and the Mass Effect series are one of EA’s biggest earners. If they see an idea for DLC that can be exploited they will take it. IT, or any ending based DLC, would be a pretty much guaranteed money earner right now, yet they’re not doing anything with it. Boggles my mind as to what’s going on here.

i was actually talking about this with spotlessvoid last night. on one hand EA cares only about profits and is willing to sacrifice anything for them, then on the other hand they are totally incapable of good business decisions. they actually had a guarunteed money earner in SWBF3, made by Pandemic studios, and dissolved the entire studio because Mercenaries 2 didnt sell that well, despite having three top selling games before hand. as far as i know, Mercs 2 was their only flop, (they had another game that was average) and yet EA got rid of them. SWBF3 was already half-way through developement and was guaranteed a greatest hits placement along with its prequels. i jsut dont understand EA at all

#16891
Hrothdane

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Rifneno wrote...

I wonder if it's too early for a "Cthulhu deserves a better ending; tribute does not flow from a dead fanbase" sig.


GLORIOUS.

With your permission, I will use this line at some point in the future.

#16892
demersel

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Ok then. Here goes. I'll state some facts, and ask some questions.
First - the rachni - this is taken from the Mass Effect Wiki:
- Matriarch Benezia explains to Commander Shepard that the rachni are fiercely territorial and seek to close all routes into their space -

#16893
plfranke

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demersel wrote...

Ok. Who is here? I need I live conversation to make it work, cause I am to lazy and agitated to outline the whole theory i have just by composing a huge detailed post.

Let me hear it

#16894
demersel

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- The rachni are a territorial race, determined to remain isolated from the rest of the galaxy. -

#16895
desert_beagle

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jgibson14352 wrote...
i was actually talking about this with spotlessvoid last night. on one hand EA cares only about profits and is willing to sacrifice anything for them, then on the other hand they are totally incapable of good business decisions. they actually had a guarunteed money earner in SWBF3, made by Pandemic studios, and dissolved the entire studio because Mercenaries 2 didnt sell that well, despite having three top selling games before hand. as far as i know, Mercs 2 was their only flop, (they had another game that was average) and yet EA got rid of them. SWBF3 was already half-way through developement and was guaranteed a greatest hits placement along with its prequels. i jsut dont understand EA at all


I think I have it figured out.  EA is run by Reapers.  They harvest all of the creative talent out of advanced game development studios and then dissolve them when their resources run out.  BioWare is just the next cycle after the PanDemians.

#16896
BansheeOwnage

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plfranke wrote...

Why could the Leviathans not protect their thralls from the machines? Is it possible their mind control only works on organics? Because, dominate only works on organics and that's the bonus power you get from them. So much ridiculous in that dlc it hurts my brain.

Then how did they kill reapers? Is it because they're made of goo?

#16897
Rifneno

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Hrothdane wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I wonder if it's too early for a "Cthulhu deserves a better ending; tribute does not flow from a dead fanbase" sig.


GLORIOUS.

With your permission, I will use this line at some point in the future.


LOL.  Help yourself. :wizard:

#16898
Andromidius

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EA do have bizzare tactics. They very much have a Slash And Burn style with their assets - if its not making money right now, they liquidise it - regardless of investment and future profits. I don't even know how they got where they are now with that sort of management.

Sooner Bioware can move away from them, the better.

#16899
plfranke

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@ Demersel
Go on...

@Banshee
Probably something similar to how they take out the shuttle. Idk so little is explained.

#16900
BansheeOwnage

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FFZero wrote...

From what I can tell it it doesn’t sound like Leviathan has sold that well, and fan reaction has pretty much amounted to ‘meh, it’s okay’. I know it’s still early days and a lot more people could buy the DLC now that it’s out and there are reviews for it but even IGN have said it’s just meh and you know something has gone wrong if IGN can’t sing praises about it.

Right now I can see ME3 going the way of DA2. Maybe one or two SP DLC’s then dropped for the next project because of lack of interest. Omega DLC is going to have to frakking amazing at this rate and Bioware are going to have to do something with the endings whether it's making something like IT happen or allowing a conventional victory.

:'(