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[spotlessvoid]

The Twilight God wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Twilight,

Anytime someone disagrees with you it's their abject failure to comprehend your superior logic. And you just keep at it. TSA was joking. He didn't call you a troll, he was mocking you by saying "there's no way you actually believe this, right? You're trolling right?"

But since any argument we make you just hands wave away immediately followed by saying we aren't making any arguments against you....well-I guess you win

Quote me where I said you failed to comprehend my superior logic.

"The very fact that you are incapable of rebuting anything I've posted indicates your de facto agreement with my conclusion."

Edit: Seriously, my ribs hurt. I don't think you are a troll per se, just adamant about your argument being flawless. What exactly is thr point if your relentless need to "prove" us all wrong. Sheesh

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 03 septembre 2012 - 05:12 .

[The Twilight God]

spotlessvoid wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Twilight,

Anytime someone disagrees with you it's their abject failure to comprehend your superior logic. And you just keep at it. TSA was joking. He didn't call you a troll, he was mocking you by saying "there's no way you actually believe this, right? You're trolling right?"

But since any argument we make you just hands wave away immediately followed by saying we aren't making any arguments against you....well-I guess you win

Quote me where I said you failed to comprehend my superior logic.

"The very fact that you are incapable of rebuting anything I've posted indicates your de facto agreement with my conclusion."

1. That wasn't directed at you.
2. It says the person in question has failed to rebute my assertion. Not that he cannot comprehend it.

I said the lethality of an explosion is based on the change in pressure it creates. I pointed out that the firball does not engulf Shepard prior to its dissipation.

Your replies:

spotlessvoid wrote...

Twilight God I can't stop laughing long enough to think straight. Please, everyone click the links he uses to compare blasts. Oh my god this hurts

spotlessvoid wrote...

Who needs armor, just turn your face away. Then activate your red x shaped force vield and youre good.

The very fact that you are incapable of rebuting anything I've posted indicates your de facto agreement with my conclusion.

NOW I'm saying it to you. I'm calling it a night. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with a butthurt forumite. Good night.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 03 septembre 2012 - 05:16 .

[Ambrosine333]

Besides the fire, the really deadly part of an explosion is the shock of the blast. Fire or no fire, the sudden energy would stop Shepard's heart at best, even if he was standing further back. Realistically, I think the damage would be much worse. I haven't seen the ending in awhile, but I assume there would also be lethal shrapnel flying around.

[spotlessvoid]

The lethality of an explosion is based on change in air pressure. Twilight God, meet fire.

I also like how you shifted the discussion from lolz Shepard outran the kilometers wide blast after I posted that picture to lolz but the first blast only singed his leg.

The only way I'd be butthurt is from falling out of my chair laughing at how seriously you take yourself

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 03 septembre 2012 - 05:20 .

[llbountyhunter]

The Twilight God wrote...

Tthe explosion would not destroy the Citadel Tower. In space heat (and force) cannot disperse via explosion as there is no atmosphere for conduction. Not that mass effect depicts realistic space explosion, but it is just a game. The debris is what carries the heat in the form of hot metal which will slowly radiate it as light or by hitting something cooler. So Shepard will not be fried by the explosion. The heat isn't going to boil the Citadel Tower as heat cannot travel through vaccuum in that manner. 

I really like how literalists tear down their own argument on trying to disprove IT. 

First we ask how Shepard can breathe in the decision chamber since Shepard is clearly in deep space without any walls or protection.
Literalists: well obviously there is some sort of containment shield... even though we don’t see it, and see clear examples of how such a shield looks like in other parts of the game (leviathan), there is a magical barrier this time. 


Then we ask how Shepard survived that huge- near supernovae power explosion. 
Literalists: well an explosion dissipates more quickly in the vacuum of space and it probably only caused very little structural damage (the citadel apparently falls apart for a completely different reason)

“the logic of the literalists.” Exhibit A 

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 03 septembre 2012 - 05:25 .

[TheConstantOne]

The Twilight God wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

The explosion itself doesn't concern me, it's the heat and pressure that builds up within the Citadel right before the walls are breached by the energy.

Shepard's survival would come down to how strong any emergency barriers are that may slide into place, along with the mass effect barrier holding around the landing he's on.

He's also right at a junction where the energy flow from the Crucible is exposed to the Citadel atmosphere. Seeing as raw energy, just like water, will first attempt the path of least resistance, one can expect him to be right in the epicenter of the blast when the energy field overloads. After the more open spaces of the Citadel are pressurized, then one can expect the blast to evacuate into space.

Shepard should be good and dead.

What makes you think heat a pressure are building up within the Citadel?

You're presuming he just stands there and watches the show. Which would burn out his retna so I'm sure he;s smart enough to not try that. I hypithesize that Shepard got up, went back down that lift and was heading back the way he came when the blast erupted. Based on his position atop the rubble he collapsed on top of it. It being the rubble of a collapsed ceiling and whatever was above it.

Shepard is seen breathing at the very end. Instead of exploring how he survived you seen intent to only consider scenarios where he dies. To rule out survival you have to first convceive how he can live. Only after all survival options are ruled out can we then say he must have died in said situation. That's how I approach it.

The problem I have with this is that the explosion from the device Shepard shoots is shown to be engulfing *and knocking him down.*  If he was far enough away to avoid serious injury from the flames, the force from the explosion has knocked him over.  Shepard is already struggling to move around as is.  It's difficult for me to imagine him pulling himself back up and exerting even more effort  through all of his *additional* pain in order to reach the Citadel wards in time.

[Arashi08]

this is more like what would happen if someone we even remotely close to an explosion as Shepard was

Modifié par Arashi08, 03 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[Hrothdane]

You are also comparing Shepard in full and undamaged N7 armor to Shepard in half blown-to-bits and melted N7 armor without a helmet. Fire blowing that close to someone's unprotected face is just asking for death. Even if the explosion doesn't kill him/her, the fire and smoke would char Shepard's throat and possibly lungs, leaving Shepard unable to make an appropriate escape, especially when you consider the massive bleeding Shepard is already suffering and the difficulty it took just for him/her to stand up and walk before the explosion. The giant beam firing from the center of the Citadel probably isn't helping the stability of the platforms at all either.

Shepard also has no idea how he/she actually got up to the decision chamber because the elevator appeared from nowhere after he/she lost consciousness and was already gone into the floor by the time he/she awoke. Even if Shepard knew where it was, there is no obvious way to activate it.

While this is going on, if the room's shielding manages to hold in the air, then Shepard would have to deal with a nasty back-draft and thus secondary explosion.

Even IF Shepard managed to last long enough for the station to calm down, by the time a rescue team could arrive, he/she would have already either bled out from the stomach wound, or would be in such a state of shock from the wound, burns, bruises, and broken bones, that he/she would already be dead.

[spotlessvoid]

Arashi08 wrote...

this is more like what would happen if someone we even remotely close to an explosion as Shepard was

"I call bull**** on that":D

[The Twilight God]

llbountyhunter wrote...

I really like how literalists tear down their own argument on trying to disprove IT. 

First we ask how Shepard can breathe in the decision chamber since Shepard is clearly in deep space without any walls or protection.
Literalists: well obviously there is some sort of containment shield... even though we don’t see it, and see clear examples of how such a shield looks like in other parts of the game (leviathan), there is a magical barrier this time. 


Then we ask how Shepard survived that huge- near supernovae power explosion. 
Literalists: well an explosion dissipates more quickly in the vacuum of space and it probably only caused very little structural damage (the citadel apparently falls apart for a completely different reason)

“the logic of the literalists.” Exhibit A 

What field did you see in ME1 when that chunk of Soveriegn came crashing through the Council chamber windows? What field do you see on the wards when you look out of the window between levels in ME2?
What field do you see on the Normandy as it is flying through the battle?
Some type of shield you can se( prothean barrier curtain, geth containment shields, Normandy's interior emergency containment field. Others you cannot.
So why does this particular mass effect field absolute HAVE to be visible? If nothing is actively impacting against it why should it be visible in the docking chamber? You are only demanding it be visible because you dislike anything that doesn;t support your preconceived notions.

There is no particles in space. Therefore there is nothing for a concussive force to travel through. There is nothing for heat to to travel through via conduction.  Heat conduction, a blast wave, sound, etc. require a medium to travel through. The explosion doesn't "dissipate faster" in a vaccuum. That energy can't go anywhere in a vaccuum other than in the form of light and/or radiation. This is simple gradeschool science. Please look it up.

[llbountyhunter]

The Twilight God wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

I really like how literalists tear down their own argument on trying to disprove IT. 

First we ask how Shepard can breathe in the decision chamber since Shepard is clearly in deep space without any walls or protection.
Literalists: well obviously there is some sort of containment shield... even though we don’t see it, and see clear examples of how such a shield looks like in other parts of the game (leviathan), there is a magical barrier this time. 


Then we ask how Shepard survived that huge- near supernovae power explosion. 
Literalists: well an explosion dissipates more quickly in the vacuum of space and it probably only caused very little structural damage (the citadel apparently falls apart for a completely different reason)

“the logic of the literalists.” Exhibit A 

What field did you see in ME1 when that chunk of Soveriegn came crashing through the Council chamber windows? What field do you see on the wards when you look out of the window between levels in ME2?
What field do you see on the Normandy as it is flying through the battle?
Some type of shield you can se( prothean barrier curtain, geth containment shields, Normandy's interior emergency containment field. Others you cannot.
So why does this particular mass effect field absolute HAVE to be visible? If nothing is actively impacting against it why should it be visible in the docking chamber? You are only demanding it be visible because you dislike anything that doesn;t support your preconceived notions.

There is no particles in space. Therefore there is nothing for a concussive force to travel through. There is nothing for heat to to travel through via conduction.  Heat conduction, a blast wave, sound, etc. require a medium to travel through. The explosion doesn't "dissipate faster" in a vaccuum. That energy can't go anywhere in a vaccuum other than in the form of light and/or radiation. This is simple gradeschool science. Please look it up.

....so shepard was in a vacuum???? ok then.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 03 septembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[spotlessvoid]

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 03 septembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[The Twilight God]

TheConstantOne wrote...

The problem I have with this is that the explosion from the device Shepard shoots is shown to be engulfing *and knocking him down.*  If he was far enough away to avoid serious injury from the flames, the force from the explosion has knocked him over.  Shepard is already struggling to move around as is.  It's difficult for me to imagine him pulling himself back up and exerting even more effort  through all of his *additional* pain in order to reach the Citadel wards in time.

The pic I posted is the last we see of Shepard before the camera changes. He is clearly not engulfed. Literally less than a second after that shot the flames dissipate. And there is just smoke. Look up the video yourself. As I also brought up that explosion barely knocked him down.  In fact he stood through the brunt of it and looks to merely be falling over. On the other hand, when Dr. Kenson denotaed her explosive device it tossed Shepard like a rag doll, flinging him through the air. This indicates it was a more powwerful blast and hence would do more damage to Shepard. Not only was that blast more forceful, but Shepard was knocked into a wall at high speed.

I personally do not believe Shepard is on the wards. I believe he is in one of those corridors like the one he entered through. The changing pairs of cables are an indicator that he is somewhere with a ceiling. In those corridors you'll notice those same types of cable running in pairs.  This is all speculation, of course.

[Arashi08]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

this is more like what would happen if someone we even remotely close to an explosion as Shepard was

"I call bull**** on that":D

"I need an MRI.  I NEED AN MRI!!!"

[Smeffects]

I finally managed to uninstall this garbage of a game, Leviathen DLC just confirmed to me what i simply couldnt face for months. Im done getting ****ed by bioware.

I love this debate about shepard survival. Literalist and ITers trying to make sense of it all, when it has no ****ing sense in either scenario: For the literalist theres just no way to survive the blast when the citadel ****ing exploded in the original red ending. For ITers, Refuse ending should be the most powerful choice for an indoctrination ending, because you refuse first, you dont even need to play by the star scumbag rules. Yet you fail, you only "wake up" by taking one of his color coded ending, meaning there is no indoctrination going in there.

Its just pure garbage one way or another. The only thing that comes out of this for me is sadness, i see good people on both sides, trying to make sense literally or fake iter ending. Both parties are wrong, because the truth is even worse then both you guys believe. The last DLC only prouve that they simply retcon and add plot holes on the spot to add more crap to sell us.

This will be my final post on these boards, i figured this thread was the best place as its the most interesting one to read. The one thing i dread for you guys is what happens in the next mass effect game coming in a year and a half (oh its coming). When you finally meet the truth in that mass effect: action shooter and space magic blend, you will come to the same realisation i did. This space opera universe was simply turned into ****. This is worse then what gorge lucas ever did and my only hope is that every will eventually open their eyes.

Good bye, literalists and Iters. Try not to over think this piece of trash, you will only find disapointement in the future.

[demersel]

 Compare:
1 - Shaperd fell into a subway, blasted into by harbinger's blast, which in fact helped him evade harbinger's blast. The indoctrination in his brain / Harbinger tries to take over. In the subway he is temporary out of harbinger's sight and reach.
with
2 - Shepard servives direct hit by harbinger, Harbinger than leaves for no appparent reason (And now I will leave forever for no reason! c.Futurama www.youtube.com/watch ), Shepard limps to the beam, without contacting anyone, letting them know he's alive and will try to still reach the beam (note how in the leviathan DLC absence of connection, does not stop him from trying, and making log) - killl Marauder Shields anf the three husketeers - the only creatures that guard the super--mega imported beam wich is always heavily guarded, uses the beam to teleport into a citadel - the technology that is never been before seen in a mass effect universe (in the conduit in ME1 there was actual mini mass relay there - here only the beam of light coming from the ground) conviniently land in like a 100 meter from super secret master console which does everything, meets there Anderson and Illusive man who he knows, and who are very important in the mass effect story, and nobody else is there. Anderson doesn't have a scratch on him, and yet he is alone, and has no one with him. Illusive man is also alone - no henchmen. Lots of bodies everywhere, yet no one around who might have killed them or brought them here. (Remember according to intel the reapers were driving people ALIVE into the beam). Then illusive man suddenly has magic, but is still killed. Anderson dies from a single gunshot. Shepard, while he is a total mess, is burned, scarred and covered in his own dried blood, and he is bleeding extensivly from the exact same spot that Anderson was shott in, yet he is fine. Then Hackett contacts him, suddenly (how? How does he know he's there at all? and that it is him?), Shepard tries to respond and do something, but collapses and loses conciousnes. Then a magic light elevator panell brings shepard up. He come to on the outside of the citadel, where some transperent kid that hounded his dreams all game long, tells him that he's controlling the reapers. (and does so in shepard's own voice). Shepard has an earie conversation with this kid, and both their voices echo strangly (in an empty oppen space there can't be an echo, science is your friend). all this haapens while shepard is OUTSIDE of the citadel, without his helmet and in burned to a crisp armor (that level of heat, needed to to that to the armor, would just burn the armor deep into shepard's own flesh btw). He then shoot's some tube, that explodes right into his unprotected face, ungulfes him into flames, and then shatters the whole citadel, while causing it explode from within as far as the ward go. There is heat and force, and even if you agrue that these thing don't trevel in vacuum - well that's the point - there is air inside of the citadel, and all around it if we take that there are forcefields around the citadel, that keep air and pressure, and allow shepard to survive on the outside of the citadel in the first place. So this is exactly the same air that later explodes while spreading the force of the explosion all over the citadel station. And yet Shepard survives all that and is on the cotadel in the breath scene. Because the cables in the breath scene are not rebar, but reaper cable (and the only place you can find those is the citadel, because you say so) and because there might be concrete-like material used in the decoration of thee citadel's inner comparments (also because you say so). So shepard is clearly on the citadel and the whole ending was in no way a dream. 


Which of these two possibilities is more likely, and needs less suspension of disbelief and additional explaining?

Modifié par demersel, 03 septembre 2012 - 05:54 .

[Arashi08]

So something I don't understand....if Shepard is in a vacuum during that scene, then how is she walking, talking, standing, and still has her eyeballs in her head? I mean we see clearly during the beam-shamble that she doesn't have shields, and even if she did you still need a suit to breathe. so...at what point is shepard in a vacuum? and if you are referring to the citadel then regardless of whether it is scientifically accurate or not the explosion DID happen that way in the context of that universe, and it clearly had enough force to blow away the citadel arms.

So...why are we talking about this again anyway?

[Lokanaiya]

TTG, how often have you even entertained the possibility of us being correct?

[llbountyhunter]

Smeffects wrote...

I finally managed to uninstall this garbage of a game, Leviathen DLC just confirmed to me what i simply couldnt face for months. Im done getting ****ed by bioware.

I love this debate about shepard survival. Literalist and ITers trying to make sense of it all, when it has no ****ing sense in either scenario: For the literalist theres just no way to survive the blast when the citadel ****ing exploded in the original red ending. For ITers, Refuse ending should be the most powerful choice for an indoctrination ending, because you refuse first, you dont even need to play by the star scumbag rules. Yet you fail, you only "wake up" by taking one of his color coded ending, meaning there is no indoctrination going in there.

Its just pure garbage one way or another. The only thing that comes out of this for me is sadness, i see good people on both sides, trying to make sense literally or fake iter ending. Both parties are wrong, because the truth is even worse then both you guys believe. The last DLC only prouve that they simply retcon and add plot holes on the spot to add more crap to sell us.

This will be my final post on these boards, i figured this thread was the best place as its the most interesting one to read. The one thing i dread for you guys is what happens in the next mass effect game coming in a year and a half (oh its coming). When you finally meet the truth in that mass effect: action shooter and space magic blend, you will come to the same realisation i did. This space opera universe was simply turned into ****. This is worse then what gorge lucas ever did and my only hope is that every will eventually open their eyes.

Good bye, literalists and Iters. Try not to over think this piece of trash, you will only find disapointement in the future.

actually refusal helps IT because he is refusing and giving up on the mental battle, and should logically result in shepards defeat.

and come on, although me2 is a better package over all, certain points in me3 surpass just about anything in other games. tuchanka and rannoch? those two scenes are moments of perfection in video game history. 

its just those last five minutes...

[demersel]

As time passes I grow to like the ME3 even more than the ME2.

[plfranke]

If believing in fan fiction makes you love the game, whatever floats your boat.

[llbountyhunter]

plfranke wrote...

If believing in fan fiction discovering theories makes you love the game, whatever floats your boat.

fixed.

[demersel]

plfranke wrote...

If believing in fan fiction makes you love the game, whatever floats your boat.

What does believing in fan fiction has to do with me liking the game more than ME2?

[Lokanaiya]

plfranke wrote...

If believing in fan fiction makes you love the game, whatever floats your boat.

Maybe I'm mixing you up with someone else, but weren't you an ITer less than 24 hours ago?

[The Twilight God]

Hrothdane wrote...

You are also comparing Shepard in full and undamaged N7 armor to Shepard in half blown-to-bits and melted N7 armor without a helmet. Fire blowing that close to someone's unprotected face is just asking for death. Even if the explosion doesn't kill him/her, the fire and smoke would char Shepard's throat and possibly lungs, leaving Shepard unable to make an appropriate escape, especially when you consider the massive bleeding Shepard is already suffering and the difficulty it took just for him/her to stand up and walk before the explosion. The giant beam firing from the center of the Citadel probably isn't helping the stability of the platforms at all either.

Shepard also has no idea how he/she actually got up to the decision chamber because the elevator appeared from nowhere after he/she lost consciousness and was already gone into the floor by the time he/she awoke. Even if Shepard knew where it was, there is no obvious way to activate it.

While this is going on, if the room's shielding manages to hold in the air, then Shepard would have to deal with a nasty back-draft and thus secondary explosion.

Even IF Shepard managed to last long enough for the station to calm down, by the time a rescue team could arrive, he/she would have already either bled out from the stomach wound, or would be in such a state of shock from the wound, burns, bruises, and broken bones, that he/she would already be dead.

It is the change in pressure that are the most lethal aspect of both those explosion seeing as the fire does not engulf Shep in either. In the Destroy ending it only catches his left leg and right foot. And only for a brief second. The amount of armor Shepard is wearing has no bearing on that. And Shepard is not required to wear a helmet or anything else that could make a airtight seal in Arrival. His ear drums, gastro intestines and lung capillaries would still burst with or without armor. I can only assume his upgrades give him super human hardiness as well as strength (the guy lifts steel girders like they are foam).

For the lift, we do not know how it works. Rather it functions automatically if someone opens the ward arms is unknown. Maybe shepard hit something with his hand before collapsing. Who knows. It was there before it activated and it's positon llinks it to the console. You can see it in the cutscene with Anderson and the Illusive man (and the flycam). He obviously did make it out of that chamber. This is shown right before credits. Denying this fact because it doesn't support your preconceived conclusion is a very biased way to approach Shepard's situation. You're all trying figure out only how he could die and then asserting that only those possibilities can be true.

Shepard has no bleeding stomach wound I can see. We see bleeding arms. Both his arms are bloody in that scene with Anderson. The location of the blood up the forearms indicates an upper arm wound, not a stomach wound. And then they are relatively clean again in the next scene which is either an oversight on Bioware's part or indicative of a hallucination.

As far as a rescue, you can hear debris being moved at the very first moments of the breathe scene so it is plausible that he is rescued. The fact that the Lover or best friend reacts differently in the memorial scene indicates that they became aware of this. Either just then and their over intercom (sent via QEC) or Bioware was too lazy to make an alternate scene where they don't even other to make the placard. Either way, there is no difference in the crews situations cpmpared to the other two endings as far as how they ending up on that planet. But obviously something occured in the Destroy ending that was different than the other two. Now rather or not Shepard stays alive is another story. That is left to personal headcanon.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 03 septembre 2012 - 06:32 .