80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Hrothdane]

TTG, Mr. "flycam can't prove anything" using flycam evidence? Tsk, Tsk....

Also, you dont address the issue of the inevitable backdraft or the extreme difficulty of Shepard making the trek you hypothesized, howard Shepard that can barely hobble can make such a journey while the space station is being wracked b explosions kilometers in diameter that are powerful enough to destroy "indestructible" alloy.

You grossly underestimate the effects of fire and smoke on the lungs and throat at such a close range. Shepard's ears getting blown out would affect his/her inner ear and thus balance.

Shepard not being required to wear a helmet in Arrival is gameplay and story segregation. Should I start using the fact that Shepard pulls out an M-8 Avenger when he/she doesn't even have one equipped as evidence that Shepard always has an M-8 Avenger hidden in hyperspace? Of course not.

I was saying with the injuries that Shepard has suffered on the Citadel, we would not get a breath scene because he/she would not have survived long enough. The wound disappearing adds further circumstantial evidence to the fire, so to speak.

[llbountyhunter]

plfranke wrote...

Phantorch2745 wrote...

Was the ending a hallucination? Let's just skip the whole essay and head straight to the conclusion, no.

Quoted for truth.

anything to back that up? no? 

essay failed.....

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 03 septembre 2012 - 06:44 .

[Smeffects]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

I finally managed to uninstall this garbage of a game, Leviathen DLC just confirmed to me what i simply couldnt face for months. Im done getting ****ed by bioware.

I love this debate about shepard survival. Literalist and ITers trying to make sense of it all, when it has no ****ing sense in either scenario: For the literalist theres just no way to survive the blast when the citadel ****ing exploded in the original red ending. For ITers, Refuse ending should be the most powerful choice for an indoctrination ending, because you refuse first, you dont even need to play by the star scumbag rules. Yet you fail, you only "wake up" by taking one of his color coded ending, meaning there is no indoctrination going in there.

Its just pure garbage one way or another. The only thing that comes out of this for me is sadness, i see good people on both sides, trying to make sense literally or fake iter ending. Both parties are wrong, because the truth is even worse then both you guys believe. The last DLC only prouve that they simply retcon and add plot holes on the spot to add more crap to sell us.

This will be my final post on these boards, i figured this thread was the best place as its the most interesting one to read. The one thing i dread for you guys is what happens in the next mass effect game coming in a year and a half (oh its coming). When you finally meet the truth in that mass effect: action shooter and space magic blend, you will come to the same realisation i did. This space opera universe was simply turned into ****. This is worse then what gorge lucas ever did and my only hope is that every will eventually open their eyes.

Good bye, literalists and Iters. Try not to over think this piece of trash, you will only find disapointement in the future.

actually refusal helps IT because he is refusing and giving up on the mental battle, and should logically result in shepards defeat.

and come on, although me2 is a better package over all, certain points in me3 surpass just about anything in other games. tuchanka and rannoch? those two scenes are moments of perfection in video game history. 

its just those last five minutes...

You go under the assumption that shepard gives up, while he cleary says the exact opposite? He says: We will win the fight on our term and free to chose? That sounds like giving up a mental battle to you? Both sides assumes alot of things and thats why both sides are wrong. The way shepard handles refusale is not giving up, if this was a dream its exactly the type of dialogue youd have because you saw right trough it.

On the point of the game not being that bad. You are taking indivdual part of the game, which i agree are good. But thats the easy part of story telling, which bioware mastered. Making emotinal moments. The problem is the way they tie their story is absolute trash. You cant have a story where individual emotional moments are good and yet your whole story line does not add up. Which is the whole case of this whole series. The minute the reaper started to "care" about organics and their motives are as simple and cliche as any random sifi action movie the game instantly ret conned mass effect 1 and became trash. All they did in the DLC is add more trash into that trash into more trash.

As i said: Literalist wants the game to make sense, but it just made less and less sense as the story carried over after mass effect 1, it simply dragged down into terrible level of plot holes in mass effect 3. The emotional moments with unique characters are the only part the game manages.

Then: Iter, trying to also make sense of the mess. Using these holes trying to craft a better story, which is admirable. But fail simply because alot of what needs to be believed like the part about refusale i just endled is simply huge non factual assumption. Shepard says he doesent give up and yet its assumed he failed for giving up. Completly abandoning the real theme of Indoctrination which was shepard being able to mentally overpower Harbinger in a mental battle, which shepard cannot die during. Only get indoctrinated or not. Only one ending ends where shepard is dead in every sense of the word, refusal.

Then came an even larger blow that again ITer tries to again cover up with assumptions. The very fact that a DLC which takes place before the ending pin point the Star kid as being who the he says he is before shepard even meets him. From indoctrination theory the star kid meeting at the ending is faked. Yet the real one exist in some form and is still leading the reaper attack when the indoctrination theory happens. So effectively the indoctrination theory was rendered still possible, but very very bad story telling.

Either way you pick, you still get a terrible Main arc and Enemy called the Reapers that gets dragged down from incomprehensible super powerful enemy with motivation humans cant understand. To Tools for a kid IA that have motives so terrible that even humans laugh at its lack of logic. A master god race, which again logics are laughable: the created always rebel against the creator! Hey lets create something!!!! A synthetic, to stop organic from creating synthetichs going to war with organics etc!!! A master race that supposelly are so powerful, they where the master of the galaxy and simply couldnt just stop lesser organic from creating synthetics by themselves. Face it the story is trash literally or IT now.

yes shepard very clearly states that hes rejecting the mental battle. doesnt leviathan say that harbinger is the first reaper created? doesnt that make him the star brat?

Its stated that the IA harvested them to create harbinger. Star kid made harbinger, he is not harbinger. It still doesent stop that all the DLC accomplished for IT is also give that same circular and ridiculous logic to the master race of the universe which created star kid for the same reason: Created always rebel against the creators, yet even with this as their motivation they did not see the lakc of logic of doing the exactly what they were fighting against, making a ****ing synthetic to help them?

The main story arc from mass effect 1 is butchered in both literal and IT ending. Theres just no way around it now, even if IT is correct, any possible resolution of the ending will still be trash for Mass effects real fans.

Also rejection of a mental battle is usually how you win one.... Accepting your oppenents idea is usally a lost, destruction is still a star kid infused idea. Technically when it comes to a battle of will of the mind, Refusal should be victory while destroy should be perhaps a less worse defeat then the other 2. Thematiclly this is no mind battle if refusale is the only real lost. Its the opposite of a mind battle.

Modifié par Smeffects, 03 septembre 2012 - 06:51 .

[The Twilight God]

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

....so shepard was in a vacuum???? ok then.

Yes, just like all the people on the wards are in a vaccuum. Just like Shepard, his squadmates, Anderson and that other alliance rescuer were in vaccum when Sovereign's toe crashed through the window. 

I see..... so the explosion behaved as if though it were in a vacuum even though it wasnt? eveyone was in air... but the explsoion was not??

hmmmm.... 

Someone please explain this to him in his own language.

"What field did you see in ME1 when that chunk of Soveriegn came crashing through the Council chamber windows? What field do you see on the wards when you look out of the window between levels in ME2?
What field do you see on the Normandy as it is flying through the battle?
Some type of shield you can se( prothean barrier curtain, geth containment shields, Normandy's interior emergency containment field. Others you cannot.
So why does this particular mass effect field absolute HAVE to be visible? If nothing is actively impacting against it why should it be visible in the docking chamber? You are only demanding it be visible because you dislike anything that doesn't support your preconceived notions.

There is no particles in space. Therefore there is nothing for a concussive force to travel through. There is nothing for heat to to travel through via conduction. Heat conduction, a blast wave, sound, etc. require a medium to travel through. The explosion doesn't "dissipate faster" in a vaccuum. That energy can't go anywhere in a vaccuum other than in the form of light and/or radiation. This is simple gradeschool science. Please look it up."

[spotlessvoid]

plfranke wrote...

Phantorch2745 wrote...

Was the ending a hallucination? Let's just skip the whole essay and head straight to the conclusion, no.

Quoted for truth.

Man, you've been here for a long time like many of us. Don't have faith in Bioware? That's your deal. We've talked one on one about how hard it is to keep any hope that Bioware knows what they are doing....I get it. But flat out bro, you're being a jerk right now, and a lot of people here have never been anything but nice to you...I know you are frustrated, but come on plfranke....explain your change of heart or don't and roll out. This isn't necessary though.

[Big_Boss9]

Interlude to the bantering, anyone fancy some MP? Hrothdane will attest that it's a good time. Origin ID -- ResJudicata77. Let's go

[llbountyhunter]

The Twilight God wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

....so shepard was in a vacuum???? ok then.

Yes, just like all the people on the wards are in a vaccuum. Just like Shepard, his squadmates, Anderson and that other alliance rescuer were in vaccum when Sovereign's toe crashed through the window. 

I see..... so the explosion behaved as if though it were in a vacuum even though it wasnt? eveyone was in air... but the explsoion was not??

hmmmm.... 

Someone please explain this to him in his own language.

"What field did you see in ME1 when that chunk of Soveriegn came crashing through the Council chamber windows? What field do you see on the wards when you look out of the window between levels in ME2?
What field do you see on the Normandy as it is flying through the battle?
Some type of shield you can se( prothean barrier curtain, geth containment shields, Normandy's interior emergency containment field. Others you cannot.
So why does this particular mass effect field absolute HAVE to be visible? If nothing is actively impacting against it why should it be visible in the docking chamber? You are only demanding it be visible because you dislike anything that doesn't support your preconceived notions.

There is no particles in space. Therefore there is nothing for a concussive force to travel through. There is nothing for heat to to travel through via conduction. Heat conduction, a blast wave, sound, etc. require a medium to travel through. The explosion doesn't "dissipate faster" in a vaccuum. That energy can't go anywhere in a vaccuum other than in the form of light and/or radiation. This is simple gradeschool science. Please look it up."

re-iterating your own stupidity doesnt make it true. slipping in pieces of factual information to garbage does not stop it from bieng garbage. sorry. 

[SauliusL]

Seeing you guys argue, it's obvious bioware did a good job to make the ending plausible enough for literallist explanation, but doubtful or flawed enough to seek deeper answers. That is exactly what they wanted - speculations, and by that seeking the truth for the puzzle, which is obviously there, but probably not for everybody to see. That is by the way exactly what's being done in Leviathan. Showing multiple times the force field, and how it looks in bigger inner spaces - for everyone to understand. If that is not a standard cinematic hint (even a primitive one, compared to some movies), then I really don't know what it is.

[hangmans tree]

You guys are still on about indoctrination even though Biowarians said its its not the case? I dont get it. I know the lenght some would go to try to justify the bad conclusion (and I mean really bad) to the series, but whats the point in discussing 'what ifs'? Does it make the theory sound and belivable? No it doesnt. Are you hoping that BW will use your theory as back door to fix the ending? Well, that would be nice, but they said the ending is absolute (I would use term obsolete, but whatever). Finito.

So, may I ask again, what is the point to the argument?

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

Seeing you guys argue, it's obvious bioware did a good job to make the ending plausible enough for literallist explanation, but doubtful or flawed enough to seek deeper answers. That is exactly what they wanted - speculations, and by that seeking the truth for the puzzle, which is obviously there, but probably not for everybody to see. That is by the way exactly what's being done in Leviathan. Showing multiple times the force field, and how it looks in bigger inner spaces - for everyone to understand. If that is not a standard cinematic hint (even a primitive one, compared to some movies), then I really don't know what it is.

Thats the thing, its not plausible for a literal ending either... Its only literal if you can already believe their writers are that out of touch. Which after leviathan i believe they are so out of touch with the original mass effect that its possible they believe their story adds up or sync togheter., but it does not. IT or Not the same circular logic runs the whole main arc and is the most important plot point: Created will rebel against the creators, lets create something to stop it??

[The Twilight God]

Hrothdane wrote...

TTG, Mr. "flycam can't prove anything" using flycam evidence? Tsk, Tsk....

No, I said you could see it while talking to TIM and Anderson. You can also see it via flycam.

Hrothdane wrote...

Also, you dont address the issue of the inevitable backdraft or the extreme difficulty of Shepard making the trek you hypothesized, howard Shepard that can barely hobble can make such a journey while the space station is being wracked b explosions kilometers in diameter that are powerful enough to destroy "indestructible" alloy.

Doesn;t matter. He did get out of there. This is shown. Doesn't matter how much you think it would be too difficult. He does do it. It would be like me saying there is no way Shepard outran those seekers at the end of ME2 without a biotic barrier up. So ME3 didn't happen and everything post suicide mission is a dream he's in while in stasis right before the Base blows up. 

Hrothdane wrote...

You grossly underestimate the effects of fire and smoke on the lungs and throat at such a close range. Shepard's ears getting blown out would affect his/her inner ear and thus balance.

Good thing for those implants, I guess.

Hrothdane wrote...

Shepard not being required to wear a helmet in Arrival is gameplay and story segregation. Should I start using the fact that Shepard pulls out an M-8 Avenger when he/she doesn't even have one equipped as evidence that Shepard always has an M-8 Avenger hidden in hyperspace? Of course not.

Not even close to the same thing,. demonstrated in the fact that you've actually made my point. As equipment loadout is non-canonical it can't be used in argument. I.E. since Shepard is not required to equip a helmet you can't say his airtight arm suit protects him in Arrival. The breather helmet is only mandatory in vaccuum or toxic atmospheres.So in Arrival he took an explosion of greater magnitude, even flying into a wall at great speed and impact, and woke up and took on a bunch of mercs and a heavy mech.

Hrothdane wrote...

I was saying with the injuries that Shepard has suffered on the Citadel, we would not get a breath scene because he/she would not have survived long enough. The wound disappearing adds further circumstantial evidence to the fire, so to speak.

In my headcanon Shepard dies. Without a reunion scene he might as well die in my book. However, he can just as well live. It's up to personal headcanon. Sure, smoke can harm him, but did he breath in alot of black smoke? Were his lungs damaged beyond repair? Those details are headcanon.

[XXIceColdXX]

Just wondering is the IT 'Con' theory accepted as a possibility by anyone here?

Hadn't heard about it until the other day, a spinoff from the original IT 'dream' theory, where everything that happens post beam actually happens, but is Indoctrinated from Harbingers beam onwards, with Harbinger obviously in his head projecting images like the boy and other memories to fill Shepards surroundings.

Has this been discussed before and either approved or dismissed?

Modifié par XXIceColdXX, 03 septembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[llbountyhunter]

hangmans tree wrote...

You guys are still on about indoctrination even though Biowarians said its its not the case? I dont get it. I know the lenght some would go to try to justify the bad conclusion (and I mean really bad) to the series, but whats the point in discussing 'what ifs'? Does it make the theory sound and belivable? No it doesnt. Are you hoping that BW will use your theory as back door to fix the ending? Well, that would be nice, but they said the ending is absolute (I would use term obsolete, but whatever). Finito.

So, may I ask again, what is the point to the argument?

If you can just point us to were bioware said It is not true and that the literal ending is the ending intended, we would gladly stop..... but if you live in the same universe we do- then they have not said such a thing. 


both sides are equally valid at this point, (no doubt biowares intentions)

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 03 septembre 2012 - 07:07 .

[SauliusL]

hangmans tree wrote...

You guys are still on about indoctrination even though Biowarians said its its not the case? I dont get it. I know the lenght some would go to try to justify the bad conclusion (and I mean really bad) to the series, but whats the point in discussing 'what ifs'? Does it make the theory sound and belivable? No it doesnt. Are you hoping that BW will use your theory as back door to fix the ending? Well, that would be nice, but they said the ending is absolute (I would use term obsolete, but whatever). Finito.

So, may I ask again, what is the point to the argument?

I am sorry, but you are wrong in many aspects. Probably you just don't follow all the information circling.

[llbountyhunter]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Just wondering is the IT 'Con' theory accepted as a possibility by anyone here?

Hadn't heard about it until the other day, a spinoff from the original 'dream' theory where everything that happens post beam actually happens, but is Indoctrinated from Harbingers beam onwards, with Harbinger obviously in his head projecting images like the boy and other memories to fill Shepards surroundings.

Has this been discussed before and either approved or dismissed?

can you explain it better? this is were I think the "hallucination" started....
http://social.biowar.../index/12389290 


not sure if thats what your talking about...

[Smeffects]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Just wondering is the IT 'Con' theory accepted as a possibility by anyone here?

Hadn't heard about it until the other day, a spinoff from the original 'dream' theory where everything that happens post beam actually happens, but is Indoctrinated from Harbingers beam onwards, with Harbinger obviously in his head projecting images like the boy and other memories to fill Shepards surroundings.

Has this been discussed before and either approved or dismissed?

That would also be a waste of time. With leviathan there is a confirmation that the IA which created Harbinger exist. Porjecting a fake one serves no pupose if theres no difference in the ending. Because its simply means that star kid was defeated without us ever meeting him or even doing anything? How exactly would he let himself be defeated, yet he defeated his godlike creators in the past? Why would he let the faith of his whole work on harbinger shoulders? It clearly wouldnt be a victory since he defeated the leviathans to make a single reaper... he defeated them without reapers. With this very fact confirmed, doesent it mean unless the AI himself allow his own defeat as he does in the ending, he pretty much could simply start over again?

Modifié par Smeffects, 03 septembre 2012 - 07:11 .

[XXIceColdXX]

Smeffects wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Just wondering is the IT 'Con' theory accepted as a possibility by anyone here?

Hadn't heard about it until the other day, a spinoff from the original 'dream' theory where everything that happens post beam actually happens, but is Indoctrinated from Harbingers beam onwards, with Harbinger obviously in his head projecting images like the boy and other memories to fill Shepards surroundings.

Has this been discussed before and either approved or dismissed?

That would also be a waste of time. With leviathan there is a confirmation that the IA which created Harbinger exist. Porjecting a fake one serves no pupose if theres no difference in the ending. Because its simply means that star kid was defeated without us ever meeting him? How exactly would he let himself be defeated, yet he defeated his godlike creators in the past?

What if that Intelligence merged with Harbinger upon its creation. I dont know, was just seeing what people here thought.

[RavenEyry]

hangmans tree wrote...

You guys are still on about indoctrination even though Biowarians said its its not the case?

Why make sh*t up just to prove yourself right? It's really sad.

Modifié par RavenEyry, 03 septembre 2012 - 07:13 .

[spotlessvoid]

Twilight
I LOVE your doesn't matter this is shown argument! It makes sense now. Shepard is alive therefore your theory is correct because Shepard is alive in it. Impossible to argue against

[Smeffects]

XXIceColdXX wrote...
What if that Intelligence merged with Harbinger upon its creation. I dont know, was just seeing what people here thought.

Even if that was the case, what would be the purpose of indocatrination to let shepard do exactly what he does literally: Defeat the reapers? Its clear that the star kids do mess with shepards mind a bit, which is why he turned into a kid in the first place. But as i said it does not give or take anything to the ending at this point. The IA is confirmed to have defeated the leviathan whole races without reaper forces. He clearly has other powers and capability outside of them. Meaning that unless he lets himself be defeated as he did, to find a new solution, he could simply start over building his repear forces after defeating the new races with his other means? It all sounds so stupid and out there... but thats exactly the problem with the series, they added too much crap.

[llbountyhunter]

Smeffects wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Just wondering is the IT 'Con' theory accepted as a possibility by anyone here?

Hadn't heard about it until the other day, a spinoff from the original 'dream' theory where everything that happens post beam actually happens, but is Indoctrinated from Harbingers beam onwards, with Harbinger obviously in his head projecting images like the boy and other memories to fill Shepards surroundings.

Has this been discussed before and either approved or dismissed?

That would also be a waste of time. With leviathan there is a confirmation that the IA which created Harbinger exist. Porjecting a fake one serves no pupose if theres no difference in the ending. Because its simply means that star kid was defeated without us ever meeting him or even doing anything? How exactly would he let himself be defeated, yet he defeated his godlike creators in the past? Why would he let the faith of his whole work on harbinger shoulders? It clearly wouldnt be a victory since he defeated the leviathans to make a single reaper... he defeated them without reapers. With this very fact confirmed, doesent it mean unless the AI himself allow his own defeat as he does in the ending, he pretty much could simply start over again?

why build the AI in thecitadel? having the AI in the citadel would ruin the point of me1.....what?  the AI couldnt just open the doors for the reapers? they had to get soverign to do it?  

even still the the story is riddled with errors (if you take it it literaly)

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 03 septembre 2012 - 07:18 .

[spotlessvoid]

Smeffects wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...
What if that Intelligence merged with Harbinger upon its creation. I dont know, was just seeing what people here thought.

Even if that was the case, what would be the purpose of indocatrination to let shepard do exactly what he does literally: Defeat the reapers? Its clear that the star kids do mess with shepards mind a bit, which is why he turned into a kid in the first place. But as i said it does not give or take anything to the ending at this point. The IA is confirmed to have defeated the leviathan whole races without reaper forces. He clearly has other powers and capability outside of them. Meaning that unless he lets himself be defeated as he did, to find a new solution, he could simply start over building his repear forces after defeating the new races with his other means? It all sounds so stupid and out there... but thats exactly the problem with the series, they added too much crap.

Yet he needed Sovereign to flip a switch for him

[XXIceColdXX]

llbountyhunter wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Just wondering is the IT 'Con' theory accepted as a possibility by anyone here?

Hadn't heard about it until the other day, a spinoff from the original 'dream' theory where everything that happens post beam actually happens, but is Indoctrinated from Harbingers beam onwards, with Harbinger obviously in his head projecting images like the boy and other memories to fill Shepards surroundings.

Has this been discussed before and either approved or dismissed?

can you explain it better? this is were I think the "hallucination" started....
http://social.biowar.../index/12389290 


not sure if thats what your talking about...

Not exactly, It would have the Hallucination begin just after the beam, so from the beam hit onwards. With the difference that what is happening is actually happening, just with Harbinger in his head projecting the appearance of things from Shepards memories to get him to choose either control or synthesis.

Modifié par XXIceColdXX, 03 septembre 2012 - 07:23 .

[Smeffects]

llbountyhunter wrote...

why build the AI in thecitadel? having the AI in the citadel would ruin the point of me1.....what?  the AI couldnt just open the doors for the reapers? they had to get soverign to do it?  

It went the way of the: Organics are a mutation, you exist because we allow it, you will die because we demand it. PS: we trying to save you.

Also the classic: Our existance transend your own, you cant understand it. PS: we are just machine made by a rogue AI.

List goes on, you get the point.

Modifié par Smeffects, 03 septembre 2012 - 07:23 .

[llbountyhunter]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Just wondering is the IT 'Con' theory accepted as a possibility by anyone here?

Hadn't heard about it until the other day, a spinoff from the original 'dream' theory where everything that happens post beam actually happens, but is Indoctrinated from Harbingers beam onwards, with Harbinger obviously in his head projecting images like the boy and other memories to fill Shepards surroundings.

Has this been discussed before and either approved or dismissed?

can you explain it better? this is were I think the "hallucination" started....
http://social.biowar.../index/12389290 


not sure if thats what your talking about...

Not exactly, It would have the Hallucination begin after the beam, so upon arrival at the Citadel. With the difference that what is happening is actually happening, just with Harbinger in his head projecting the appearance of things from Shepards memories to get him to choose either control or synthesis.

gotcha.  but i still think it would be more like how the leviathan/shepard conversation played out.... and also because shepard woke up on earth.