80611 réponses à ce sujet

[The Twilight God]

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

re-iterating your own stupidity doesnt make it true. slipping in pieces of factual information to garbage does not stop it from bieng garbage. sorry. 

Answer the question, please.

1. What field did you see in ME1 when that chunk of Soveriegn came crashing through the Council chamber windows?2. What field do you see on the wards when you look out of the window between levels in ME2?
3. What field do you see around the Normandy as it is flying through the final battle?
4. What field do you see around the Normandy's private dock in ME1 when no object is moving through it?
5. What field do you see holding the Collector ship atmosphere in (and it clearly has an atmosphere even if non-breathable).
6. What field do you see holding atmosphere around the Collector Base exterior? The Normady just crashes on its surface and everyone hops out (no masks necessary).
7. What field do you see holding atmosphere around the Collector Base interior? On the last platform fight before going to the Terminator there is an opening that leads out into open space. when th eNormandy exits the base there is no visible field even as they emerge out of that tunnel.
8. What field do you see holding atmosphere inside Grissom Academy? When the shuttle takes of why doesn't the room decompress once the bay doors open?

Let me guess... suicide mission a dream because you can't see the mass effect fields?

I have now lost all hope on humanity.

In otherwords, you're wrong and too proud to admit it. Read you loud and clear.

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Creator vs created was always a theme of the series, I don't deny that. We thought it was all sorted at rannoch, but for better or for worse it was brought up again as part of the reapers origin story. The problem with it in the literal ending is it trumps all other themes and forces you to accept Mr. Sparkle's logic on it or everyone dies. An IT ending would bring back the other main themes and possibly even prove Mr. Sparkle wrong if synthetics are involved.

Basically, I don't see how the very existence of a theme you personally don't like would make an IT ending suck.

It does because it perpetuate the fact that the stupid logic from the catalyst is legitimate to the whole series. They created a synthetic, to stop other synthetics from revolthing against their creators. IT was completly free from this in the past, now its also tied to this. It will still trumps the other theme, because its the reason the antagonist was made for.

And this antagonist always has to be perfect? With no flaw in logic, no arrogance? Isn't it what in most stories antagonists are made from?

[Smeffects]

llbountyhunter wrote...
The reapers originally being the product of an AI does not make the central theme of the series creator vs created.

just becuase you figure out who made the reapers doesnt change the focus of the story. its still everyone VS the reapers.

we all always knew that the reapers had a creator...the unveiling of that creator does not have a major impact on the story.

Except everyone vs the reaper is not a theme. ITs not important who made the reapers, ill give you that. Whats important is why, why is the reason why the plot exist in the first place. Exemple i write a story about a greedy person, which turns into a robber. As he grows trought out the book he will self correct after long time in jails and redeem himself. My main themes: Greed, Redemption, self correction. Greed is not directly important to my reader as clearly as redemption... but its infact more important, because its the reason my story even existed. Its the WHY my story happens.

Why the reapers do what they do is the reason the conflict exist in the first place.

[llbountyhunter]

The Twilight God wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

re-iterating your own stupidity doesnt make it true. slipping in pieces of factual information to garbage does not stop it from bieng garbage. sorry. 

Answer the question, please.

1. What field did you see in ME1 when that chunk of Soveriegn came crashing through the Council chamber windows?2. What field do you see on the wards when you look out of the window between levels in ME2?
3. What field do you see around the Normandy as it is flying through the final battle?
4. What field do you see around the Normandy's private dock in ME1 when no object is moving through it?
5. What field do you see holding the Collector ship atmosphere in (and it clearly has an atmosphere even if non-breathable).
6. What field do you see holding atmosphere around the Collector Base exterior? The Normady just crashes on its surface and everyone hops out (no masks necessary).
7. What field do you see holding atmosphere around the Collector Base interior? On the last platform fight before going to the Terminator there is an opening that leads out into open space. when th eNormandy exits the base there is no visible field even as they emerge out of that tunnel.
8. What field do you see holding atmosphere inside Grissom Academy? When the shuttle takes of why doesn't the room decompress once the bay doors open?

Let me guess... suicide mission a dream because you can't see the mass effect fields?

I have now lost all hope on humanity.

In otherwords, you're wrong and too proud to admit it. Read you loud and clear.

not at all. I have repeatedly told how and why you are wrong, and yet you keep bringing up the VERY SAME POINTS over and OVER.

from now on I will ignore you. have a nice day.

[RavenEyry]

Smeffects wrote...

It does because it perpetuate the fact that the stupid logic from the catalyst is legitimate to the whole series. They created a synthetic, to stop other synthetics from revolthing against their creators. IT was completly free from this in the past, now its also tied to this. It will still trumps the other theme, because its the reason the antagonist was made for.

It doesn't mean a final end still can't prove that logic wrong.

Once again, the reapers had to come from somewher. Turns out it was from the hubris of the leviathans and a badly designed AI. This does not destroy the series and ruin it's themes.

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Creator vs created was always a theme of the series, I don't deny that. We thought it was all sorted at rannoch, but for better or for worse it was brought up again as part of the reapers origin story. The problem with it in the literal ending is it trumps all other themes and forces you to accept Mr. Sparkle's logic on it or everyone dies. An IT ending would bring back the other main themes and possibly even prove Mr. Sparkle wrong if synthetics are involved.

Basically, I don't see how the very existence of a theme you personally don't like would make an IT ending suck.

It does because it perpetuate the fact that the stupid logic from the catalyst is legitimate to the whole series. They created a synthetic, to stop other synthetics from revolthing against their creators. IT was completly free from this in the past, now its also tied to this. It will still trumps the other theme, because its the reason the antagonist was made for.

And this antagonist always has to be perfect? With no flaw in logic, no arrogance? Isn't it what in most stories antagonists are made from?

I dont like antagonist to be complete idiots in my books usually. Being evil can be considered a flaw already. As you pointed out by this whole theme it paints the antagonist as complete fools, which wasent how they were shown or believed to be in the original mass effect. This is what i simply lost faith in this series, which started strong and could have gone to way better places, IT or literally.

[RavenEyry]

llbountyhunter wrote...

from now on I will ignore you. have a nice day.

Took you long enough. I've been ignoring him since he got really angry at me insulting his 'dissertation' when all I said was that I liked it.

[llbountyhunter]

Smeffects wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...
The reapers originally being the product of an AI does not make the central theme of the series creator vs created.

just becuase you figure out who made the reapers doesnt change the focus of the story. its still everyone VS the reapers.

we all always knew that the reapers had a creator...the unveiling of that creator does not have a major impact on the story.

Except everyone vs the reaper is not a theme. ITs not important who made the reapers, ill give you that. Whats important is why, why is the reason why the plot exist in the first place. Exemple i write a story about a greedy person, which turns into a robber. As he grows trought out the book he will self correct after long time in jails and redeem himself. My main themes: Greed, Redemption, self correction. Greed is not directly important to my reader as clearly as redemption... but its infact more important, because its the reason my story even existed. Its the WHY my story happens.

Why the reapers do what they do is the reason the conflict exist in the first place.

it is everyone VS the reapers... at first I was going to put organics, but even synthetics was to bring the reapers down. everyone is banding together to remove the threat.

as for your second point.... I dont see the connection at all. 

[The Twilight God]

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

re-iterating your own stupidity doesnt make it true. slipping in pieces of factual information to garbage does not stop it from bieng garbage. sorry. 

Answer the question, please.

1. What field did you see in ME1 when that chunk of Soveriegn came crashing through the Council chamber windows?2. What field do you see on the wards when you look out of the window between levels in ME2?
3. What field do you see around the Normandy as it is flying through the final battle?
4. What field do you see around the Normandy's private dock in ME1 when no object is moving through it?
5. What field do you see holding the Collector ship atmosphere in (and it clearly has an atmosphere even if non-breathable).
6. What field do you see holding atmosphere around the Collector Base exterior? The Normady just crashes on its surface and everyone hops out (no masks necessary).
7. What field do you see holding atmosphere around the Collector Base interior? On the last platform fight before going to the Terminator there is an opening that leads out into open space. when th eNormandy exits the base there is no visible field even as they emerge out of that tunnel.
8. What field do you see holding atmosphere inside Grissom Academy? When the shuttle takes of why doesn't the room decompress once the bay doors open?

Let me guess... suicide mission a dream because you can't see the mass effect fields?

I have now lost all hope on humanity.

In otherwords, you're wrong and too proud to admit it. Read you loud and clear.

not at all. I have repeatedly told how and why you are wrong, and yet you keep bringing up the VERY SAME POINTS over and OVER.

from now on I will ignore you. have a nice day.

Right. You know very well that not all mass effect fields are visible and now you run away, tail between your legs. I understood you the first time. No need to spell it out for me.

And good day to you.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 03 septembre 2012 - 08:11 .

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Creator vs created was always a theme of the series, I don't deny that. We thought it was all sorted at rannoch, but for better or for worse it was brought up again as part of the reapers origin story. The problem with it in the literal ending is it trumps all other themes and forces you to accept Mr. Sparkle's logic on it or everyone dies. An IT ending would bring back the other main themes and possibly even prove Mr. Sparkle wrong if synthetics are involved.

Basically, I don't see how the very existence of a theme you personally don't like would make an IT ending suck.

It does because it perpetuate the fact that the stupid logic from the catalyst is legitimate to the whole series. They created a synthetic, to stop other synthetics from revolthing against their creators. IT was completly free from this in the past, now its also tied to this. It will still trumps the other theme, because its the reason the antagonist was made for.

And this antagonist always has to be perfect? With no flaw in logic, no arrogance? Isn't it what in most stories antagonists are made from?

I dont like antagonist to be complete idiots in my books usually. Being evil can be considered a flaw already. As you pointed out by this whole theme it paints the antagonist as complete fools, which wasent how they were shown or believed to be in the original mass effect. This is what i simply lost faith in this series, which started strong and could have gone to way better places, IT or literally.

Me too, I hate when "stupid" is on the screen.
But for me that's not the case. Reapers are beyond our comprehension, we don't even know how their logic works, because we are simple humans and we think different. Even IF harbinger tries to explain his motives, he might be unable to, because it might be impossible to do it with human words. And what he tells us is either half trues, or lies, or just oversimplified version of a part of his motives and reasons.

[Smeffects]

RavenEyry wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

It does because it perpetuate the fact that the stupid logic from the catalyst is legitimate to the whole series. They created a synthetic, to stop other synthetics from revolthing against their creators. IT was completly free from this in the past, now its also tied to this. It will still trumps the other theme, because its the reason the antagonist was made for.

It doesn't mean a final end still can't prove that logic wrong.

Once again, the reapers had to come from somewher. Turns out it was from the hubris of the leviathans and a badly designed AI. This does not destroy the series and ruin it's themes.

Of course that logic can be proven wrong, because even if its true that synthetics would always rebel against us, there is no understandable reason why they would create a synthetic to solve the problem so he can rebel against them. I have a problem when a story start strong then paints its antagonist as a complete fool. Antagonist always has flaws, so does most heroes, the problem is when those flaws make the antagonist a complete idiot, which you cant understand yourself because his logic is so poor, its greatly diminishes his impact.

[The Twilight God]

RavenEyry wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

from now on I will ignore you. have a nice day.

Took you long enough. I've been ignoring him since he got really angry at me insulting his 'dissertation' when all I said was that I liked it.

I don't recall ever getting angry at you. You sure you don't have me confused with someone else? 

[RavenEyry]

Smeffects wrote...

I dont like antagonist to be complete idiots in my books usually. Being evil can be considered a flaw already. As you pointed out by this whole theme it paints the antagonist as complete fools

It paints the leviathans as complete idiots. How does this make the reapers complete idiots.

[Smeffects]

RavenEyry wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

I dont like antagonist to be complete idiots in my books usually. Being evil can be considered a flaw already. As you pointed out by this whole theme it paints the antagonist as complete fools

It paints the leviathans as complete idiots. How does this make the reapers complete idiots.

Well they are nothing but machines made by an AI which is about as foolish as the leviathans too. Im not sure id really consider them evil anymore or idiots. More like tools used by the antagonist, which showed up 5 minute at the end of the game or not at all under IT. Either way its greatly lessen who the reapers are at this point. If harbinger is now star kid as people keep trying to point out, he clearly suffer from the same logical trouble as star kid. Its very strange because we had a full game of dialogue with him and never has he mentioned synthetic, he did seems interested in genetics though... another theme which was abosutly dropped from a previous mass effect chapter to be forgotten forever. Kinda like the citadel trap

Modifié par Smeffects, 03 septembre 2012 - 08:16 .

[RavenEyry]

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

I dont like antagonist to be complete idiots in my books usually. Being evil can be considered a flaw already. As you pointed out by this whole theme it paints the antagonist as complete fools

It paints the leviathans as complete idiots. How does this make the reapers complete idiots.

Well they are nothing but machines made by an AI which is about as foolish as the leviathans too. Im not sure id really consider them evil anymore or idiots. More like tools used by the antagonist, which showed up 5 minute at the end of the game or not at all under IT. Either way its greatly lessen who the reapers are at this point.

IT means the reapers aren't necessarily tools. They were created by the AI yes, but they could easily be the independant beings that kill because it's fun they were in 1 and 2.

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

I dont like antagonist to be complete idiots in my books usually. Being evil can be considered a flaw already. As you pointed out by this whole theme it paints the antagonist as complete fools

It paints the leviathans as complete idiots. How does this make the reapers complete idiots.

Well they are nothing but machines made by an AI which is about as foolish as the leviathans too. Im not sure id really consider them evil anymore or idiots. More like tools used by the antagonist, which showed up 5 minute at the end of the game or not at all under IT. Either way its greatly lessen who the reapers are at this point.

The way I understand it, Leviathas created a simple AI to help them in being gods, but gave no restriction. And the AI perfected itself so much, that became smartest thing in Milky way. It's proved when Shepards asks if it is simple AI, and starchild calls Shepard an animal. So the AI perfected ITSELF - it has nothing to do with stupid arrogant Leviathans.

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

I dont like antagonist to be complete idiots in my books usually. Being evil can be considered a flaw already. As you pointed out by this whole theme it paints the antagonist as complete fools

It paints the leviathans as complete idiots. How does this make the reapers complete idiots.

Well they are nothing but machines made by an AI which is about as foolish as the leviathans too. Im not sure id really consider them evil anymore or idiots. More like tools used by the antagonist, which showed up 5 minute at the end of the game or not at all under IT. Either way its greatly lessen who the reapers are at this point.

The way I understand it, Leviathas created a simple AI to help them in being gods, but gave no restriction. And the AI perfected itself so much, that became smartest thing in Milky way. It's proved when Shepards asks if it is simple AI, and starchild calls Shepard an animal. So the AI perfected ITSELF - it has nothing to do with stupid arrogant Leviathans.

It proven to be unstoppable as well. Defeating its creators without reapers. Under IT in order to break from this terrible theme, the AI would have to be confronted in a maner which is pretty much like the literal ending, wherre the AI agree to let us be or destroyed at some point.

I also edited my post to give more clarifications.

[RavenEyry]

It's a pity we don't get to kill leviathan because then we could summon it in battle...

[Smeffects]

RavenEyry wrote...
IT means the reapers aren't necessarily tools. They were created by the AI yes, but they could easily be the independant beings that kill because it's fun they were in 1 and 2.

They really never said they did it for fun, they simply had a purpose which we didnt know, but they aknowledge they had one. If they are still single minded, it simply mean instead being suggestivly controlled by the AI or fully, they simply accept his logic enough to let him lead them. Meaning they arent very smart?


Added part to the pervious post: Either way its greatly lessen who the reapers are at this point. If
harbinger is now star kid as people keep trying to point out, he clearly
suffer from the same logical trouble as star kid. If he is or not Its very strange
because we had a full game of dialogue with him and never has he
mentioned synthetic, he did seems interested in genetics though...
another theme which was abosutly dropped from a previous mass effect
chapter to be forgotten forever. Kinda like the citadel trap

Modifié par Smeffects, 03 septembre 2012 - 08:25 .

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

I dont like antagonist to be complete idiots in my books usually. Being evil can be considered a flaw already. As you pointed out by this whole theme it paints the antagonist as complete fools

It paints the leviathans as complete idiots. How does this make the reapers complete idiots.

Well they are nothing but machines made by an AI which is about as foolish as the leviathans too. Im not sure id really consider them evil anymore or idiots. More like tools used by the antagonist, which showed up 5 minute at the end of the game or not at all under IT. Either way its greatly lessen who the reapers are at this point.

The way I understand it, Leviathas created a simple AI to help them in being gods, but gave no restriction. And the AI perfected itself so much, that became smartest thing in Milky way. It's proved when Shepards asks if it is simple AI, and starchild calls Shepard an animal. So the AI perfected ITSELF - it has nothing to do with stupid arrogant Leviathans.

It proven to be unstoppable as well. Defeating its creators without reapers. Under IT in order to break from this terrible theme, the AI would have to be confronted in a maner which is pretty much like the literal ending, wherre the AI agree to let us be or destroyed at some point.

I also edited my post to give more clarifications.

For me the geth consensus level, was like an alegory, to show, how inside of AI looks like and how it works, and how it's possible to get rid of the "corruption". So I would say - no, literall ending is no the only way to finish this game. Battle of the minds, as the main boss battle of the game is the first step to do so. Which we actually got. We have are left to see what follows.

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...
IT means the reapers aren't necessarily tools. They were created by the AI yes, but they could easily be the independant beings that kill because it's fun they were in 1 and 2.

They really never said they did it for fun, they simply had a purpose which we didnt know, but they aknowledge they had one. If they are still single minded, it simply mean instead being suggestivly controlled by the AI or fully, they simply accept his logic enough to let him lead them. Meaning they arent very smart?


Added part to the pervious post: Either way its greatly lessen who the reapers are at this point. If
harbinger is now star kid as people keep trying to point out, he clearly
suffer from the same logical trouble as star kid. If he is or not Its very strange
because we had a full game of dialogue with him and never has he
mentioned synthetic, he did seems interested in genetics though...
another theme which was abosutly dropped from a previous mass effect
chapter to be forgotten forever. Kinda like the citadel trap

I think, by meaning all reapers are one - is like EDI is everywhere at the same time- she controls Normandy and is in the body at the same time.
This is one more alegory, or piece of the puzzle which was presented clearly by bioware before the ending, for us to put togehter. That's my opinion at least.

[RavenEyry]

Smeffects wrote...
If harbinger is now star kid as people keep trying to point out, he clearly
suffer from the same logical trouble as star kid.

If Mr. Sparkle really is Harby in disguise, he is performing what we call a  trick or a ruse, meaning he is masking the truth in an attempt to get Shepard to do what he wants.

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...
IT means the reapers aren't necessarily tools. They were created by the AI yes, but they could easily be the independant beings that kill because it's fun they were in 1 and 2.

They really never said they did it for fun, they simply had a purpose which we didnt know, but they aknowledge they had one. If they are still single minded, it simply mean instead being suggestivly controlled by the AI or fully, they simply accept his logic enough to let him lead them. Meaning they arent very smart?


Added part to the pervious post: Either way its greatly lessen who the reapers are at this point. If
harbinger is now star kid as people keep trying to point out, he clearly
suffer from the same logical trouble as star kid. If he is or not Its very strange
because we had a full game of dialogue with him and never has he
mentioned synthetic, he did seems interested in genetics though...
another theme which was abosutly dropped from a previous mass effect
chapter to be forgotten forever. Kinda like the citadel trap

By the way you are making the same mistake again. Forget what starbrat says. It's the harbinger singing you songs you want to hear - just to trick you. The only time we hear the real Harginger is when he says "so be it".

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...
For me the geth consensus level, was like an alegory, to show, how inside of AI looks like and how it works, and how it's possible to get rid of the "corruption". So I would say - no, literall ending is no the only way to finish this game. Battle of the minds, as the main boss battle of the game is the first step to do so. Which we actually got. We have are left to see what follows.

But thats a huge assumptions... first you started telling me the AI perfected himself so much he defeated godlike lifeforms on his own by becoming the smartest being in the galaxy. The smartest AI in the galaxy is an idiot that would lose a mind battle to a human being? The story is hurt because they added too much crap like this. I did not say you can only finish the game literally. I only said according to what we got to know from the AI, which you said yourself is the smartest and pretty much unstoppable, there is only 2 possible victory: He let us be as he does in the current ending or there is a way to physically destroy him from the outside of indoctrination.

[SauliusL]

By the way very nicely done - harbinger sings the songs for shepard to trick him in high, innocent voice, and when Shepard refuses, throws away the disguise and with big dissapointment tells "so be it " in a low, aggressive voice. It's just so stereotypical hints, that it amazes how people don't put the puzzle together