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[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...
IT means the reapers aren't necessarily tools. They were created by the AI yes, but they could easily be the independant beings that kill because it's fun they were in 1 and 2.

They really never said they did it for fun, they simply had a purpose which we didnt know, but they aknowledge they had one. If they are still single minded, it simply mean instead being suggestivly controlled by the AI or fully, they simply accept his logic enough to let him lead them. Meaning they arent very smart?


Added part to the pervious post: Either way its greatly lessen who the reapers are at this point. If
harbinger is now star kid as people keep trying to point out, he clearly
suffer from the same logical trouble as star kid. If he is or not Its very strange
because we had a full game of dialogue with him and never has he
mentioned synthetic, he did seems interested in genetics though...
another theme which was abosutly dropped from a previous mass effect
chapter to be forgotten forever. Kinda like the citadel trap

By the way you are making the same mistake again. Forget what starbrat says. It's the harbinger singing you songs you want to hear - just to trick you. The only time we hear the real Harginger is when he says "so be it".

If it was harbinger, hes still very out of character and lost his main theme from mass effect 2. He does not even aknowledge the existance of synthetics in any of his mass effect 2 lines, not once.  He goes long and hard about genetics and experiments though.

If as you say hes simply tricking us, hes still giving us exactly the pep talk from the creator of his creator. Since he is clearly at the service of his creator, he sure would agree with his logic or simply cant refuse his logic. Either way hes still more a puppet then anything. Doesent seems like the power of the universe really bends to him there...

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

By the way very nicely done - harbinger sings the songs for shepard to trick him in high, innocent voice, and when Shepard refuses, throws away the disguise and with big dissapointment tells "so be it " in a low, aggressive voice. It's just so stereotypical hints, that it amazes how people don't put the puzzle together

Its not the same actors doing the voices actually and the reapers all kind sound simular. Just because he is a machine doesent make him harbinger. But even if it is harbinger you are talking to, hes still not more then a puppet out of character.

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...
For me the geth consensus level, was like an alegory, to show, how inside of AI looks like and how it works, and how it's possible to get rid of the "corruption". So I would say - no, literall ending is no the only way to finish this game. Battle of the minds, as the main boss battle of the game is the first step to do so. Which we actually got. We have are left to see what follows.

But thats a huge assumptions... first you started telling me the AI perfected himself so much he defeated godlike lifeforms on his own by becoming the smartest being in the galaxy. The smartest AI in the galaxy is an idiot that would lose a mind battle to a human being? The story is hurt because they added too much crap like this. I did not say you can only finish the game literally. I only said according to what we got to know from the AI, which you said yourself is the smartest and pretty much unstoppable, there is only 2 possible victory: He let us be as he does in the current ending or there is a way to physically destroy him from the outside of indoctrination.

And it goes again - MISSINTERPRETATION.
Shepard doesn't kill or harm harbinger in this mind battle. The intruder is Harbinger INSIDE shepard head, trying to trick VOLUNTARILY for Shepard to join them. It's much harder task than making a husk, because you have to work your deception at your best - still Shepard is the leader of the galaxy. And with Shepard winning the battle in only means he withstood the tricks of the "devil trying to trick Jesus":) and got the corruption out of his head. He did not become smarter than AI, nor better or stronger. You know it's the same as in movies, when LOVE wins against the strongest foes, with biggest weapons. It's a fairy tail of such sort, but modern in it's science side.

Modifié par SauliusL, 03 septembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[hangmans tree]

RavenEyry wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

You guys are still on about indoctrination even though Biowarians said its its not the case?

Why make sh*t up just to prove yourself right? It's really sad.

Rude. Not to mention condescending and plain awful 'argumented'.

My opinion: if you think the ending to be some elaborated effort form BW... after seeing photoshopped Tali, bad writing in the ending sequence, marketing lies and some other 'stuff' I think that you as a gamer are hallucinating.

Point being - leviathan for one contributes to the story of Reaper Wars to be true. And as a plain gimmick Lots of Speculations for Everyone.
The mother****ing epilogue has some dude and a kid as a narrating frame/closure. Calling it a hallucination is far reaching. You do not extend hallucination onto narration. You can obscure protagonist's knowledge/vision, trick him, but you cant do that to the reader/player by changin the narration. Inconsistency in that case is a HUGE error, a mistake. It breakes the whole premise, lead and gouverning theme of the series, plus it breaks the suspencion of disbelief.
ME series is not Tristram Shandy FFS! Maybe you should talk it over with some english literature professor, huh?

AS I said, BW may think that (whatever) IT theory might be somewhat re used as a back door to retcon their own work. It's all dependant on the sales I think. If the DLC are selling poor we '...root back for the core audiences and change some ending facts by... hmm, lets use IT theory, right?'

But if BW intended 'lots of speculation for everyone', speculating is useless. It means there is no ending, there is no masterplan behind the scenes. Its just we failed at resolving the Gordian knot ME has become.
Plus the leaked ending in ME 3 files. They changed the whole segment to not end up looking like losers for making important files be known to the public. A grave mistake. When you want to change details of an elaborate story at the last minute you WILL MISS OR LOSE some puzzle pieces. It was a really bad call.
Since then it was all about damage controll. I think that without a major retcon or a miracle writing this game/ending cant be salvaged.
Just my honest opinion.

[RavenEyry]

"Harbinger might be lying about synthetics but still hates synthetics despite never mentioning synthetics" That post hurt my brain.

[RavenEyry]

hangmans tree wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

You guys are still on about indoctrination even though Biowarians said its its not the case?

Why make sh*t up just to prove yourself right? It's really sad.

Rude. Not to mention condescending and plain awful 'argumented'.

Your wall of text opinion never explained your original statement, so my comment about you making sh*t up still stands.

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

And it goes again - MISSINTERPRETATION.
Shepard does kill or harm harbinger in this mind battle. The intruder is Harbinger INSIDE shepard head, trying to trick VOLUNTARILY for Shepard to join them. It's much harder task than making a husk, because you have to work your deception at your best - still Shepard is the leader of the galaxy. And with Shepard winning the battle in only means he withstood the tricks of the "devil trying to trick Jesus":) and got the corruption out of his head. He did not become smarter than AI, nor better or stronger. You know it's the same as in movies, when LOVE wins against the strongest foes, with biggest weapons. It's a fairy tail of such sort, but modern in it's science side.

I was not talking about the current ending, i was talking about the possible ending after the indoctrination theory ends. In order to stop this theme of synthetics vs organic the main antagonist has to be stopped. The antagonist is the AI which defeated leviathen and created the reapers. Unless he is stopped, he can simply start over as he already did?

[Smeffects]

RavenEyry wrote...

"Harbinger might be lying about synthetics but still hates synthetics despite never mentioning synthetics" That post hurt my brain.

He does not mention synthetics anywhere in the mass effect series, except if we believe he is the star kid. That would be the only time he mentions anything about them. That he decided to only speak once in mass effect 3 and ramble about synthetic theme that never interested him before, is actually a very huge story telling flaws from character developpement point in the whole series.

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

And it goes again - MISSINTERPRETATION.
Shepard does kill or harm harbinger in this mind battle. The intruder is Harbinger INSIDE shepard head, trying to trick VOLUNTARILY for Shepard to join them. It's much harder task than making a husk, because you have to work your deception at your best - still Shepard is the leader of the galaxy. And with Shepard winning the battle in only means he withstood the tricks of the "devil trying to trick Jesus":) and got the corruption out of his head. He did not become smarter than AI, nor better or stronger. You know it's the same as in movies, when LOVE wins against the strongest foes, with biggest weapons. It's a fairy tail of such sort, but modern in it's science side.

I was not talking about the current ending, i was talking about the possible ending after the indoctrination theory ends. In order to stop this theme of synthetics vs organic the main antagonist has to be stopped. The antagonist is the AI which defeated leviathen and created the reapers. Unless he is stopped, he can simply start over as he already did?

The only person bringin up the synthetics vs organics problem (after you solve geth and quarian conflict) is Starchild. It exists only for himself at the moment. So yes - only defeating reapers is the only way to close this problem, at least for now, as we don't know what future might hold for us. But I don't exactly get what you are aiming for.

[RavenEyry]

Smeffects wrote...
I was not talking about the current ending, i was talking about the possible ending after the indoctrination theory ends. In order to stop this theme of synthetics vs organic the main antagonist has to be stopped. The antagonist is the AI which defeated leviathen and created the reapers. Unless he is stopped, he can simply start over as he already did?

So now you're saying the themes are ruined because you will have to kill synthetics to end the war. You realize we'd have to do that whatever the themes, since ME1?

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

"Harbinger might be lying about synthetics but still hates synthetics despite never mentioning synthetics" That post hurt my brain.

He does not mention synthetics anywhere in the mass effect series, except if we believe he is the star kid. That would be the only time he mentions anything about them. That he decided to only speak once in mass effect 3 and ramble about synthetic theme that never interested him before, is actually a very huge story telling flaws from character developpement point in the whole series.

Oh, you don't even image what people, trying to trick you, start talking about, what they never did before. Especially seeing that some themes are important for you, as you just moments ago fixed a geth-quarian conflict.

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

The only person bringin up the synthetics vs organics problem (after you solve geth and quarian conflict) is Starchild. It exists only for himself at the moment. So yes - only defeating reapers is the only way to close this problem, at least for now, as we don't know what future might hold for us. But I don't exactly get what you are aiming for.

Actually thats the whole problem. The leviathan also brings up that theme, so it does not only exist for himself. The theme which was forced into mass effect 3 about rebeling against your creator, it only exits as long as the AI exist. Under indoctrination it still exist as the reason you have to stop him. IT or Not this bad plot out of theme from mass effect universe will still glue to the series, as the reason it started. This is the problem i always had with this game, thats why the main arc is crap. It forced a theme at the end only. Now IT was preventing that by making the catalyst ideas a lie, once waking up shepard could learn the truth and defeat the real enemy. Then leviathen shows up and legitimise that awful theme more. The more DLC that happens that laknowledge that theme, the worse it will get.

Modifié par Smeffects, 03 septembre 2012 - 08:55 .

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

The only person bringin up the synthetics vs organics problem (after you solve geth and quarian conflict) is Starchild. It exists only for himself at the moment. So yes - only defeating reapers is the only way to close this problem, at least for now, as we don't know what future might hold for us. But I don't exactly get what you are aiming for.

Actually thats the whole problem. The leviathan also brings up that problem, so it does not only exist for himself. The theme which was forced into mass effect 3 about rebeling against your creator, it only exits as long as the AI exist. Under indoctrination it still exist as the reason you have to stop him. IT or Not this bad plot out of theme from mass effect universe will still glue to the series, as the reason it started. This is the problem i always had with this game, thats why the main arc is crap. It forced a theme at the end only. Now IT was preventing that by making the catalyst ideas a lie, once waking up shepard could learn the truth and defeat the real enemy. Then leviathen shows up and legitimise that awful theme more. The more DLC that happens that laknowledge that theme, the worse it will get.

Well, since Leviathans had their created AI rebell against them, they have full right to believe it happens always. We, however have no arguments to believe it, because of geth/quarians story, and EDI. If Shepard was full himself in the decision chamber, he would have counter argumented the Starchild much more. But hey - since indoctrination is stated to alter your senses and make you more succeptible to foreign ideas, he even forgot stories from his life, he just blindly trusts his biggest enemy in last years. Perfect description of indoctrination.

[Smeffects]

RavenEyry wrote...

So now you're saying the themes are ruined because you will have to kill synthetics to end the war. You realize we'd have to do that whatever the themes, since ME1?

The theme was ruined when reapers that ended us because they demanded it, became our protectors. The theme is not kill x as i said to someone else, thats not a theme. The themes are reason why the hero and the antagonist do what they do.

[RavenEyry]

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

So now you're saying the themes are ruined because you will have to kill synthetics to end the war. You realize we'd have to do that whatever the themes, since ME1?

The theme was ruined when reapers that ended us because they demanded it, became our protectors. The theme is not kill x as i said to someone else, thats not a theme. The themes are reason why the hero and the antagonist do what they do.

And the reapers don't necesarily do what they do because of the creator v created thing.

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

Leviathans had their created AI rebell against them, they have full right to believe it happens always. We, however have no arguments to believe it, because of geth/quarians story, and EDI. If Shepard was full himself in the decision chamber, he would have counter argumented the Starchild much more. But hey - since indoctrination is stated to alter your senses and make you more succeptible to foreign ideas, he even forgot stories from his life, he just blindly trusts his biggest enemy in last years. Perfect description of indoctrination.

Exactly and because the leviathans created the antagonist for that very reason. Mass effect 3 forced this theme on the story. A theme that was never present in mass effect 1 or 2. Harbinger spoke of organics as a waste of space that they allow existance only for themselfs. The whole mass effect 3 theme is the opposite, reapers are here to make us survive, they exit only for us.

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

So now you're saying the themes are ruined because you will have to kill synthetics to end the war. You realize we'd have to do that whatever the themes, since ME1?

The theme was ruined when reapers that ended us because they demanded it, became our protectors. The theme is not kill x as i said to someone else, thats not a theme. The themes are reason why the hero and the antagonist do what they do.

We DON"T know what the reapers REALLY want. We know what they say they want, but since when do we trust the main bad guys? Are you really in life so blindly trusting?
From what we know, reapers might be coming to harvest the organics when they reach such technological adnvace to create AI's  just because reapers don't want another AI to perfect itself so much  that it would be threat to them and they take organics and make more reapers from them not because they want to preserve something, but because it is the perfect way to make more of the powerful reapers and become even a bigger force.
Stop trusting every word a villain says.

[Smeffects]

RavenEyry wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

So now you're saying the themes are ruined because you will have to kill synthetics to end the war. You realize we'd have to do that whatever the themes, since ME1?

The theme was ruined when reapers that ended us because they demanded it, became our protectors. The theme is not kill x as i said to someone else, thats not a theme. The themes are reason why the hero and the antagonist do what they do.

And the reapers don't necesarily do what they do because of the creator v created thing.

But their creator does and they still work for him. They simply took a backseat in the story when the AI existence is aknowledged in leviathan. We know his motivation and why he made the reapers. Even if the reapers motivation are something else, they still do exactly what the AI motivation are.

[RavenEyry]

Smeffects wrote...


But their creator does and they still work for him. They simply took a backseat in the story when the AI existence is aknowledged in leviathan. We know his motivation and why he made the reapers. Even if the reapers motivation are something else, they still do exactly what the AI motivation are.

NOT NECESSARILY IN IT. HOW ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS?

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

So now you're saying the themes are ruined because you will have to kill synthetics to end the war. You realize we'd have to do that whatever the themes, since ME1?

The theme was ruined when reapers that ended us because they demanded it, became our protectors. The theme is not kill x as i said to someone else, thats not a theme. The themes are reason why the hero and the antagonist do what they do.

We DON"T know what the reapers REALLY want. We know what they say they want, but since when do we trust the main bad guys? Are you really in life so blindly trusting?
From what we know, reapers might be coming to harvest the organics when they reach such technological adnvace to create AI's  just because reapers don't want another AI to perfect itself so much  that it would be threat to them and they take organics and make more reapers from them not because they want to preserve something, but because it is the perfect way to make more of the powerful reapers and become even a bigger force.
Stop trusting every word a villain says.

What the reapers say/want is irrelevent. They are esthablished as henchmen for the antagonist of the story with leviathan. The AI.

[hangmans tree]

RavenEyry wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

You guys are still on about indoctrination even though Biowarians said its its not the case?

Why make sh*t up just to prove yourself right? It's really sad.

Rude. Not to mention condescending and plain awful 'argumented'.

Your wall of text opinion never explained your original statement, so my comment about you making sh*t up still stands.

I'm sure some writer said something during Comicon panel - something about IT being nothing more than commited fans in paraphrase. I dont remember. Maybe something more was said. I remember articles on game sites with the tone 'IT proves nothing, and its just a fan-fic-of-sorts'.
Aye, and that doesnt change the fact your way of conversation and argumentation is a oneway street, invalidates itsef by that agressive tone. Ergo you lose the moment you open your mouth with that kind of intention. So, am I sad?
Why dont you refer to the other arguments I gave? Prove me wrong and I'll call it quits.

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

So now you're saying the themes are ruined because you will have to kill synthetics to end the war. You realize we'd have to do that whatever the themes, since ME1?

The theme was ruined when reapers that ended us because they demanded it, became our protectors. The theme is not kill x as i said to someone else, thats not a theme. The themes are reason why the hero and the antagonist do what they do.

We DON"T know what the reapers REALLY want. We know what they say they want, but since when do we trust the main bad guys? Are you really in life so blindly trusting?
From what we know, reapers might be coming to harvest the organics when they reach such technological adnvace to create AI's  just because reapers don't want another AI to perfect itself so much  that it would be threat to them and they take organics and make more reapers from them not because they want to preserve something, but because it is the perfect way to make more of the powerful reapers and become even a bigger force.
Stop trusting every word a villain says.

What the reapers say/want is irrelevent. They are esthablished as henchmen for the antagonist of the story with leviathan. The AI.

Established as henchmen in the very beggining - yes. But later EVOLVED on their own and became individual, thinking of themselves as gods, knowing better what best for everyone. From my understanding they might not have any connection to Leviathan at all, except they were created in the image of one.
All the movies, books, information about AI, gives understanding that AI is EVLOVING and we, as limited humans, can't predict how or where. We can't even comprehend their way of thinking, as it is really different from ours (by the way it is showed by bioware in the geth consensus level).

[Smeffects]

RavenEyry wrote...

Smeffects wrote...


But their creator does and they still work for him. They simply took a backseat in the story when the AI existence is aknowledged in leviathan. We know his motivation and why he made the reapers. Even if the reapers motivation are something else, they still do exactly what the AI motivation are.

NOT NECESSARILY IN IT. HOW ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS?

It still does in IT, you get the confirmation in leviathen... are you gona just ignore that whole DLC? Is its a dream too? They aknowledge the harvest, they aknowledge the cycle. They tell you exactly why and how the AI is doing anything. When ever you meet the AI or not at the end does not matter, you know what he is up to and the reapers are doing exactly that.

The leviathan has no reason to lie about any of this, otherwise they would not join you and risk themselves to the reapers, when their leader a single AI that already defeated their whole civilisation. As they obiviously dont care much about lesser spieces, they arent in it for you, but if you fail, they also fail now that the reapers know they exit.

Modifié par Smeffects, 03 septembre 2012 - 09:17 .

[RavenEyry]

hangmans tree wrote...
I'm sure some writer said something during Comicon panel - something about IT being nothing more than commited fans in paraphrase. I dont remember. Maybe something more was said. I remember articles on game sites with the tone 'IT proves nothing, and its just a fan-fic-of-sorts'.
Aye, and that doesnt change the fact your way of conversation and argumentation is a oneway street, invalidates itsef by that agressive tone. Ergo you lose the moment you open your mouth with that kind of intention. So, am I sad?
Why dont you refer to the other arguments I gave? Prove me wrong and I'll call it quits.

I'm not trying to prove your opinion wrong, I was just trying to correct incorrect facts. Perhaps I was too rude but it was an extremely stupid thing to say.

The quote you're referring to was "the indoctrination theory shows the didication of our fans". That is in no way a denial.

[RavenEyry]

Smeffects wrote...

It still does in IT, you get the confirmation in leviathen... are you gona just ignore that whole DLC? Is its a dream too? They aknowledge the harvest, they aknowledge the cycle. They tell you exactly why and how the AI is doing anything. When ever you meet the AI or not at the end does not matter, you know what he is up to and the reapers are doing exactly that.

The leviathan has no reason to lie about any of this, otherwise they would not join you and risk themselves to the reapers that already defeated their whole civilisation. As they obiviously dont care much about lesser spieces, they arent in it for you, but if you fail, they also fail now that the reapers know they exit.

How many times must I say this? All the leviathans tell you is the reapers were created by their AI. They do not say the AI is still in control of them and is exactly the same as it was, it's totally killing you to save you from synthetics.