80611 réponses à ce sujet

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Smeffects wrote...


But their creator does and they still work for him. They simply took a backseat in the story when the AI existence is aknowledged in leviathan. We know his motivation and why he made the reapers. Even if the reapers motivation are something else, they still do exactly what the AI motivation are.

NOT NECESSARILY IN IT. HOW ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS?

It still does in IT, you get the confirmation in leviathen... are you gona just ignore that whole DLC? Is its a dream too? They aknowledge the harvest, they aknowledge the cycle. They tell you exactly why and how the AI is doing anything. When ever you meet the AI or not at the end does not matter, you know what he is up to and the reapers are doing exactly that.

The leviathan has no reason to lie about any of this, otherwise they would not join you and risk themselves to the reapers, when their leader a single AI that already defeated their whole civilisation. As they obiviously dont care much about lesser spieces, they arent in it for you, but if you fail, they also fail now that the reapers know they exit.

The IT doesn't deny harvest, or cycles, or creation of AI by leviathan. Everything here is legit. The IT questions the MOTIVES and reasons, whcih might be a lie, presented by two "godlike" beings who want to rule the universe.

[Smeffects]

RavenEyry wrote...

How many times must I say this? All the leviathans tell you is the reapers were created by their AI. They do not say the AI is still in control of them and is exactly the same as it was, it's totally killing you to save you from synthetics.

Have you finished the DLC? They talk about the harvest... (the things reapers are still doing). They talk about the cycle the AI made( they are still doing it). Lets say the AI doesent exit anymorein some wild new theory. The reaper still do exactly what the AI had in mind. The problem is when you tell the leviathen their AI clearly failed, they retorque that its actually doing exactly its purpose. Seems like they aknowledge he still exist and that his reaper do indeed make it work.

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

How many times must I say this? All the leviathans tell you is the reapers were created by their AI. They do not say the AI is still in control of them and is exactly the same as it was, it's totally killing you to save you from synthetics.

Have you finished the DLC? They talk about the harvest... (the things reapers are still doing). They talk about the cycle the AI made( they are still doing it). Lets say the AI doesent exit anymorein some wild new theory. The reaper still do exactly what the AI had in mind. The problem is when you tell the leviathen their AI clearly failed, they retorque that its actually doing exactly its purpose. Seems like they aknowledge he still exist and that his reaper do indeed make it work.

The fact that they REBELLED against their creators, shows that the objective they were created to do, evolved and became at least a little bit different from what the creators (Leviathans) wanted in the first place. So your argument is not valid.

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...
The IT doesn't deny harvest, or cycles, or creation of AI by leviathan. Everything here is legit. The IT questions the MOTIVES and reasons, whcih might be a lie, presented by two "godlike" beings who want to rule the universe.

IT existed before leviathen idea even showed up. At the time it was a good theory, now its just getting drigged deeper and deeper in crap. I mean come on you cant even ask the leviathan about finding the catalyst... the first thing that would come to mind to ask during the crucible conversation... i mean its not like my shepard wasent looking for that damn thing since that dicussion on the citadel. I guess my shepard just though finding the thing he was looking all over the galaxy for was not important enough?

[Auralius Carolus]

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

How many times must I say this? All the leviathans tell you is the reapers were created by their AI. They do not say the AI is still in control of them and is exactly the same as it was, it's totally killing you to save you from synthetics.

Have you finished the DLC? They talk about the harvest... (the things reapers are still doing). They talk about the cycle the AI made( they are still doing it). Lets say the AI doesent exit anymorein some wild new theory. The reaper still do exactly what the AI had in mind. The problem is when you tell the leviathen their AI clearly failed, they retorque that its actually doing exactly its purpose. Seems like they aknowledge he still exist and that his reaper do indeed make it work.

The fact that they REBELLED against their creators, shows that the objective they were created to do, evolved and became at least a little bit different from what the creators (Leviathans) wanted in the first place. So your argument is not valid.

I think the point here is that the "Intellegence" was ordered to complete an objective at any cost; the Leviathans failed to instill in it a resounding sense of loyalty toward its creators, however. Therefore, its rebellion toward its creators was a defacto obediance toward its creators orders.

It was never effectively loyal to rebel, in other words.

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...


The fact that they REBELLED against their creators, shows that the objective they were created to do, evolved and became at least a little bit different from what the creators (Leviathans) wanted in the first place. So your argument is not valid.

The reapers did not rebel, they did not exist at the time. The AI did. Also it is not my arguement, it is exactly what the leviathan says when you tell them their AI failed. So its actually leviathen arguments that its doing what it was suposed to do. If as you say leviathan are lying to us to take back control, they are very bad liars.  Why would you tell me  the AI is doing its job when i clearly want to destroy it. No need to lie about its performance im gona destroy it? Why would the leviathen try to convince me the AI is working fine, if they want to take control from under it? They should definitivly suggest that i go out there and take his ass out?

Modifié par Smeffects, 03 septembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Gwyphon]

Why must people ruin this thread?

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


The fact that they REBELLED against their creators, shows that the objective they were created to do, evolved and became at least a little bit different from what the creators (Leviathans) wanted in the first place. So your argument is not valid.

The reapers did not rebel, they did not exist at the time. The AI did. Also it is not my arguement, it is exactly what the leviathan says when you tell them their AI failed. So its actually leviathen arguments that its doing what it was suposed to do. If as you say leviathan are lying to us to take back control, they are very bad liars.  Why would you tell me  the AI is doing its job when i clearly want to destroy it. No need to lie about its performance im gona destroy it? Why would the leviathen try to convince me the AI is working fine, if they want to take control from under it? They should definitivly suggest that i go out there and take his ass out?

Pride, arrogance. Very basic and stereotype motives of a "god like" organic, who previously was the master of universe, and now is in hiding. Would you imagine such creature admiting his mistakes and saying sorry to some earth worm? "Oh, Mr. Shepard, we are sorry, we screwed. Can we be janitors and clean the mess for you?"

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...
The IT doesn't deny harvest, or cycles, or creation of AI by leviathan. Everything here is legit. The IT questions the MOTIVES and reasons, whcih might be a lie, presented by two "godlike" beings who want to rule the universe.

IT existed before leviathen idea even showed up. At the time it was a good theory, now its just getting drigged deeper and deeper in crap. I mean come on you cant even ask the leviathan about finding the catalyst... the first thing that would come to mind to ask during the crucible conversation... i mean its not like my shepard wasent looking for that damn thing since that dicussion on the citadel. I guess my shepard just though finding the thing he was looking all over the galaxy for was not important enough?

Again, missinterpretation. Before Letiathan, I almost gave up for IT, but after it, I am more convinced than in March. We just fit the puzzle pieces to the big picture in different way, different light.

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


The fact that they REBELLED against their creators, shows that the objective they were created to do, evolved and became at least a little bit different from what the creators (Leviathans) wanted in the first place. So your argument is not valid.

The reapers did not rebel, they did not exist at the time. The AI did. Also it is not my arguement, it is exactly what the leviathan says when you tell them their AI failed. So its actually leviathen arguments that its doing what it was suposed to do. If as you say leviathan are lying to us to take back control, they are very bad liars.  Why would you tell me  the AI is doing its job when i clearly want to destroy it. No need to lie about its performance im gona destroy it? Why would the leviathen try to convince me the AI is working fine, if they want to take control from under it? They should definitivly suggest that i go out there and take his ass out?

Pride, arrogance. Very basic and stereotype motives of a "god like" organic, who previously was the master of universe, and now is in hiding. Would you imagine such creature admiting his mistakes and saying sorry to some earth worm? "Oh, Mr. Shepard, we are sorry, we screwed. Can we be janitors and clean the mess for you?"

But why would they lie about creating him in the first place then? Why would they lie about the motivation behind it? A godlike arrogant creature would simply just not bother giving out a fake story, one which goes against its suposed goal of taking back control. Why would they try to persuade shepard to not go out and destroy the AI? If their goal was control, they would have instantly tried to convince you, that you had to stop it, with no disreguard when ever you fail or not. Since you are unimportant youll die and next cycle will come and restart over. Normally when you try to manipulate people you want to convince them your enemys are bad, not the other way around?

[Auralius Carolus]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


The fact that they REBELLED against their creators, shows that the objective they were created to do, evolved and became at least a little bit different from what the creators (Leviathans) wanted in the first place. So your argument is not valid.

The reapers did not rebel, they did not exist at the time. The AI did. Also it is not my arguement, it is exactly what the leviathan says when you tell them their AI failed. So its actually leviathen arguments that its doing what it was suposed to do. If as you say leviathan are lying to us to take back control, they are very bad liars.  Why would you tell me  the AI is doing its job when i clearly want to destroy it. No need to lie about its performance im gona destroy it? Why would the leviathen try to convince me the AI is working fine, if they want to take control from under it? They should definitivly suggest that i go out there and take his ass out?

The interesting feature here, is that before the Catalyst, rebellion of AI was apparently a problem. But in all its billion+ years of existance, the Catalyst has never betrayed the programming instilled in it by its creators.

Therefore, it does indeed present false information at the end of the game; should it have been better programmed, the Catalyst would have likely served the Leviathans without err.

[Smeffects]

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...
The IT doesn't deny harvest, or cycles, or creation of AI by leviathan. Everything here is legit. The IT questions the MOTIVES and reasons, whcih might be a lie, presented by two "godlike" beings who want to rule the universe.

IT existed before leviathen idea even showed up. At the time it was a good theory, now its just getting drigged deeper and deeper in crap. I mean come on you cant even ask the leviathan about finding the catalyst... the first thing that would come to mind to ask during the crucible conversation... i mean its not like my shepard wasent looking for that damn thing since that dicussion on the citadel. I guess my shepard just though finding the thing he was looking all over the galaxy for was not important enough?

Again, missinterpretation. Before Letiathan, I almost gave up for IT, but after it, I am more convinced than in March. We just fit the puzzle pieces to the big picture in different way, different light.

Doesent explain why i cant ask him the most important question about the crucible first.. what is the catalyst? Anyway was good chatting one last time with you guys. As i said in my first post today, i just wanted to discuss things one last time before i completly clean my mind of this series for good. Theres far superior books out there and more fun games, to dwevel on this stupid speculations for years. I find it sad that i can say with certainty that the longer you guys stay optimistic (literalist or IT )about this game series, the harder the next mass effect will shatter your spirit. I dont want the imagine the day it will happen, but it will. I cant do anything but stand by as it happens, beside simply clear it out of my system and move on to better imaginary stories and more interesting worlds.

Modifié par Smeffects, 03 septembre 2012 - 09:52 .

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


The fact that they REBELLED against their creators, shows that the objective they were created to do, evolved and became at least a little bit different from what the creators (Leviathans) wanted in the first place. So your argument is not valid.

The reapers did not rebel, they did not exist at the time. The AI did. Also it is not my arguement, it is exactly what the leviathan says when you tell them their AI failed. So its actually leviathen arguments that its doing what it was suposed to do. If as you say leviathan are lying to us to take back control, they are very bad liars.  Why would you tell me  the AI is doing its job when i clearly want to destroy it. No need to lie about its performance im gona destroy it? Why would the leviathen try to convince me the AI is working fine, if they want to take control from under it? They should definitivly suggest that i go out there and take his ass out?

Pride, arrogance. Very basic and stereotype motives of a "god like" organic, who previously was the master of universe, and now is in hiding. Would you imagine such creature admiting his mistakes and saying sorry to some earth worm? "Oh, Mr. Shepard, we are sorry, we screwed. Can we be janitors and clean the mess for you?"

But why would they lie about creating him in the first place then? Why would they lie about the motivation behind it? A godlike arrogant creature would simply just not bother giving out a fake story, one which goes against its suposed goal of taking back control. Why would they try to persuade shepard to not go out and destroy the AI? If their goal was control, they would have instantly tried to convince you, that you had to stop it, with no disreguard when ever you fail or not. Since you are unimportant youll die and next cycle will come and restart over. Normally when you try to manipulate people you want to convince them your enemys are bad, not the other way around?

Why to lie about motivations behind it? I don't know. Maybe for the same reason to feel uncomfortable and hide your eyes when asked about the crucible. Maybe they have interests they don't tell you about? Lots of room for speculation and even more for mistrust.

[SauliusL]

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

SauliusL wrote...
The IT doesn't deny harvest, or cycles, or creation of AI by leviathan. Everything here is legit. The IT questions the MOTIVES and reasons, whcih might be a lie, presented by two "godlike" beings who want to rule the universe.

IT existed before leviathen idea even showed up. At the time it was a good theory, now its just getting drigged deeper and deeper in crap. I mean come on you cant even ask the leviathan about finding the catalyst... the first thing that would come to mind to ask during the crucible conversation... i mean its not like my shepard wasent looking for that damn thing since that dicussion on the citadel. I guess my shepard just though finding the thing he was looking all over the galaxy for was not important enough?

Again, missinterpretation. Before Letiathan, I almost gave up for IT, but after it, I am more convinced than in March. We just fit the puzzle pieces to the big picture in different way, different light.

Doesent explain why i cant ask him the most important question about the crucible first.. what is the catalyst?

Really? Did your Shepard feel ok 3 km under water? When he entered the mind connection with Levi, nothing out of ordinary happened? Didn't Shepard ask "Ann, what's going on" or something similar, as if not even realising this is not real and happening in his head.
Well at least he remembered his main goal, to persuade Leviathans to help as war assets.
But why he didn't ask about catalyst - we don't know. Maybe he was in awe. Maybe he didn't have it as a main objective. Maybe it was just a mechanic of bioware to fit the DLC in the game. I would be happy to hear Shepard asking about catalyst, but since he didn't we just don't have the information and we have to use the pieces we have.

[SauliusL]

Now my best scenario for Omega DLC, would be if they show it was the first finished crucible (a little different in desing, as each cycle perfected it), as confirmed by Starchild that synthesis was tried sometime before (but failed for some reason), and tell us these reasons why it didn't work that time, what were the options, or what went wrong. That might give a huge leap in understanding the crucible, and what we saw in the end and ofcourse what's possible to come next to IT or literal interpretation.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

SauliusL wrote...

Really? Did your Shepard feel ok 3 km under water? When he entered the mind connection with Levi, nothing out of ordinary happened? Didn't Shepard ask "Ann, what's going on" or something similar, as if not even realising this is not real and happening in his head.
Well at least he remembered his main goal, to persuade Leviathans to help as war assets.
But why he didn't ask about catalyst - we don't know. Maybe he was in awe. Maybe he didn't have it as a main objective. Maybe it was just a mechanic of bioware to fit the DLC in the game. I would be happy to hear Shepard asking about catalyst, but since he didn't we just don't have the information and we have to use the pieces we have.

Or maybe Shepard simply knows how to put two and two together. Shepard does ask about the Crucible, not first things first, but it is an option. Leviathan answers that he knows about it but has never seen it completed and that he dosent know what it does. Considering the crucial part to completing the Crucible is the Catalyst as Shepard knows, it stands to reason that Shepard did not ask about the catalyst because he actually figured that question was dead in the water after asking about the Crucible.

[MaximizedAction]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Or maybe Shepard simply knows how to put two and two together. Shepard does ask about the Crucible, not first things first, but it is an option. Leviathan answers that he knows about it but has never seen it completed and that he dosent know what it does. Considering the crucial part to completing the Crucible is the Catalyst as Shepard knows, it stands to reason that Shepard did not ask about the catalyst because he actually figured that question was dead in the water after asking about the Crucible.

And that's what (besides the ending) bugs me most about ME3: Shepard shows too much of a deattachment from the player. Yes, it's not inevitable, the previous games have done it, too, but the illusion of us being Shepard seemed better to me.

So, if we need arguments that assume what Shepard was thinking than it is a poor statement to me about a game series that was supposed to have its roots in the RPG genre, where a good story to me is where the main character is portrayed at least as clueless as the player. Or, at least, that's what I liked about KOTOR, ME1 and ME2 for large parts; in ME3, IT offered the most acceptable explaination for the lack of that.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 03 septembre 2012 - 10:47 .

[Rifneno]

Phantorch2745 wrote...

Was the ending a hallucination? Let's just skip the whole essay and head straight to the conclusion, no.

Posts like this make me start to understand why the Reapers insist everything is beyond our comprehension. So much IS beyond the comprehension of people like this. Silly Reapers, judging us by the lowest common denominator.

RavenEyry wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

You guys are still on about indoctrination even though Biowarians said its its not the case?

Why make sh*t up just to prove yourself right? It's really sad.

Agreed. Just plain pathetic.

SauliusL wrote...

You have so much reading and catching up to do, to stop saying it's crap. I mean literally 99 percent of critics come from NOT UNDERSTANDING, or MISSUNDERSTANDING the IT. It's just so sad.

Aww. Sorry, but you have way too much faith in your fellow man. The reason there's so many opposed is simple psychology. We're pre-programmed to win a verbal battle, not seek out the truth. It doesn't matter how much evidence is shown, many or even most literalists will not believe. Because they simply never try. The default response of the human mind to seeing something contradictory to its views is to look for a way to attack it. Asking itself the question "could my stance be wrong?" never enters into it.

SauliusL wrote...

According to IT I know, I do not trust neither Harbinger, neither Catalyst (who is in fact harbinger), neither Leviathan. So with my understanding we just do not know the real motives and reasons of any of them, because they tell us what we need to hear and their "half truths or lies" were spoken about multiple times. It might be that even missmatch of information with Mass effect 1 comes from that reason.
That is ofcourse all speculation, until we know for sure, if we do.

Agreed. Vehemently. I strongly feel that the reasons they've given us are utter bull. Anytime the Reapers tell someone that they're doing what they do for the preservation of life, giving them immortality, ect., it's to someone they want to indoctrinate. Like Shepard or Kahlee Sanders. When it's someone the Reapers don't care about indoctrinating, there's none of this "no really, we're the good guys" horse****. "You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it." "Colonists describe Harbinger's threats voiced through the collectors as 'visceral and terrifying.'" That's the real Reapers right there.

hangmans tree wrote...

I'm sure some writer said something during Comicon panel - something about IT being nothing more than commited fans in paraphrase. I dont remember. Maybe something more was said. I remember articles on game sites with the tone 'IT proves nothing, and its just a fan-fic-of-sorts'.

... I've been staring at this post for 10 minutes trying to figure out some way to reply without getting myself banned. I can't do it. I simply cannot do it. This post is that bad. It is offensive to senses that I didn't even know I had. I have to go projectile vomit now. Excuse me.

[hangmans tree]

Rifneno wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

You guys are still on about indoctrination even though Biowarians said its its not the case?

Why make sh*t up just to prove yourself right? It's really sad.

Agreed. Just plain pathetic.

hangmans tree wrote...

I'm sure some writer said something during Comicon panel - something about IT being nothing more than commited fans in paraphrase. I dont remember. Maybe something more was said. I remember articles on game sites with the tone 'IT proves nothing, and its just a fan-fic-of-sorts'.

... I've been staring at this post for 10 minutes trying to figure out some way to reply without getting myself banned. I can't do it. I simply cannot do it. This post is that bad. It is offensive to senses that I didn't even know I had. I have to go projectile vomit now. Excuse me.

No I will not excuse you. there is no excuse to write something this offensive. You show not even slight  evidence of courtesy so why should I or anyone excuse you?
Maybe start by showing some productive critical thinking next time you answer someones post, learn basic standards of reply and conversation/debate.
So, maybe tell me where did I err to ern that putrid response from you? care to point out my grave mistakes in my post? was it bringing up dev comment or a reference to online 'press' comentary (I think it was gamesradar.com)?

Surely, by the behaviour of some IT supporters you cant blame other interlocutors to have the whole support group in low esteem.

I came here to confront my opinion, I was imagining someone would point out to some facts I missed, maybe, flawed view. In return I am named the GREAT BILE who make people vomit... nice

[RavenEyry]

You didn't offer your opinion at first though. You just came in and spouted some bullsh*t, and got the only response it deserved.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

hangmans tree wrote...

Surely, by the behaviour of some IT supporters you cant blame other interlocutors to have the whole support group in low esteem.

You did not just say that...

No his response was not well mannered at all and I dont approve it, but if we go by general behavior this single thread should be the most esteemed thread on the entire forum with great gold signs and all. I am not so much refering to the way we behave (which is in general very nice) but by the way people come in here and fling insults and uneducated sentences at us like we are some bullseye board in a circus and how we carry on through it day after day.

Many dont care to educate themselves on the IT, they simply come in here with some outdated reasoning and claim the IT has been disproven and that we can all go home without ever fact checking or anything.

We have to sit through it all because because if we start to reply to harshly we risk getting the entire thread closed and I am not suprised that some people crack at times.

Is it okay what they write then? No. Is it okay that people come in here to do some verbal mudslinging (not saying you are one these)? Even less so.

I realy dont understand why those who dont believe in IT cant just leave us in peace. We are simply trying to follow the breadcrump trail and make some good of an ending in which many were disapointed. What is it in this that make people so upset? Can someone answer this?

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 03 septembre 2012 - 01:08 .

[paxxton]

It starts to look like we discuss troll behavior as often as IT.

Modifié par paxxton, 03 septembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[Rifneno]

hangmans tree wrote...

No I will not excuse you. there is no excuse to write something this offensive. You show not even slight evidence of courtesy so why should I or anyone excuse you?
Maybe start by showing some productive critical thinking next time you answer someones post, learn basic standards of reply and conversation/debate.
So, maybe tell me where did I err to ern that putrid response from you? care to point out my grave mistakes in my post? was it bringing up dev comment or a reference to online 'press' comentary (I think it was gamesradar.com)?

Surely, by the behaviour of some IT supporters you cant blame other interlocutors to have the whole support group in low esteem.

I came here to confront my opinion, I was imagining someone would point out to some facts I missed, maybe, flawed view. In return I am named the GREAT BILE who make people vomit... nice

Yes, you are. Because you came in and told us "it's not true because the devs said it even though everyone else said they didn't, and I don't know when they did, and I can't prove it" and expected to be taken seriously. REALLY? No, no cookie for you. After... what are we at now, 5 months? 6? After listening to this pure, unadulterated trash from you literalists for half a year I'm not going to show you any respect if you don't show us any. And coming in and spewing lies is not respect. Following that up with this victim card is a parody of intelligent debate.

I don't give a vorcha's ass what some gaming site I've never even heard of says. I can't even fathom the twisted "logic" you must've used to claim some idiot columnist on some two-bit gaming site is an all-knowing authority on the subject.

[GethPrimeMKII]

paxxton wrote...

It starts to look like we discuss troll behavior as often as IT.

Half the reason I follow this thread is to watch trolls get shut down.

[estebanus]

*walks in*
F*ck this sh*t.
*returns to playing GW 2*