BatmanTurian wrote...
You could really call it an AI of sorts...oh wait... :innocent:...
Modifié par demersel, 03 septembre 2012 - 10:47 .
Arashi08 wrote...
So if people actually put the points of their argument into neat little bullet points instead of large paragraphs do you think the people coming in this thread would actually READ them rather than skim the first few sentences of each paragraph and begin their retort?
Yea, I don't think the catalyst believes it rebelled. It just evolved a different interpretation of it's core programing.demersel wrote...
Big G13 wrote...
I think it's from iRobot.
Yes. Thank you. This is where I've seen it. summs up the whole catalyst problem nicely.
Modifié par Big G13, 03 septembre 2012 - 10:57 .
Enthrallment is exactly what happens in the ending. I suppose out of desperation Harbinger uses his last resort weapon. He's in close proximity to Shepard an thus is able to kick him out of his mind.demersel wrote...
paxxton wrote...
Well, it doesn't fit. There are no self-induced hallucinations with respect to indoctrination in the lore of ME. Leviathan is an external catalyst that creates images inside Shepard's head. In the ending it's not Shepard who has to have all the pieces but Harbinger who uses his memories to create the dream. Harbinger is instrumental in making IT have any sense. You can't put a random, non-Leviathan Reaper there.
Oh, But there are! Cerberus crew at the dead reaper. The reaper itself, it's mind was dead, but the crew still got indoctrinated. All other instances of people getting indoctrintated just by artifacts all over ME1 and 2.
What leviathan DLC told us for certain is that Leviathan's enthrallment is a process, that reqieres direct input from the leviathan. It is an action.
contrary to it, the indoctrination does not reqiere direct input from a reaper. It just happens. it is a process. It does not reqiere the presence of the operator. It is an automated process with a mind of it's own. You could really call it an AI of sorts...oh wait... :innocent:
Modifié par paxxton, 03 septembre 2012 - 10:58 .
It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. in all honesty it isnt important loldemersel wrote...
sorry, Arashi08. I'll work on my wording. From now on i'll try to only list key points.
Big G13 wrote...
Yea, I don't think the catalyst believes it rebelled. It just evolved a different interpretation of it's core programing.
demersel wrote...
Big G13 wrote...
Yea, I don't think the catalyst believes it rebelled. It just evolved a different interpretation of it's core programing.
Who cares what this thing thinks? (if there is even such a thing in the first place).
By even entertaing a possibility that such madness as the reapers might have a valid point, you already make the first step on the way of being indoctrinated.
help me. 
Sorry but Indoctrination can't be an enemy like technology can't be evil. The enemy is the Reapers and they'll use every means at their disposal to win the war.demersel wrote...
The true enemy is indoctrination. and this is what we need to fight and defeat. (and in the end of ME3 - we did.) the DLC will just shed light on what is the true enemy (which they already begun in the leviathan).
Even leviathans are indoctrinated to some degree (to that they want to suddenly build a reaper, but that tthey thing that it is pointless to fight. That there is nothing that can be done. Reapers can't be beaten).
remeber:
- Why do you hide instead of fighting back -
- there is no point. Reapers can't be beaten.
- Not if you sit here and whine about it they can't!
- Hmm...good point. We'll fight.
That is exactly how thee dialog goes.
The leviathans are indoctrinated into hiding insted of resisting.
By finding them - you changed that.
Also reapers want you to find them and lure them out.
Thing about it. With the death of indoctrinated Dr Bryson, you become the driving force behind the search for leviathans. They even don't arrive to the planet, although they have the location before you do. They just show up to speed you up - like "Get on with it already!)
Modifié par paxxton, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:11 .
paxxton wrote...
Enthrallment is exactly what happens in the ending. I suppose out of desperation Harbinger uses his last resort weapon. He's in close proximity to Shepard an thus is able to kick him out of his mind.
Big G13 wrote...
demersel wrote...
Big G13 wrote...
Yea, I don't think the catalyst believes it rebelled. It just evolved a different interpretation of it's core programing.
Who cares what this thing thinks? (if there is even such a thing in the first place).
By even entertaing a possibility that such madness as the reapers might have a valid point, you already make the first step on the way of being indoctrinated.
demersel wrote...
BatmanTurian - help me out on this. ))
I think that the analogy to the ending we've got with Leviathan proves that Harbinger plays a gigantic role in inducing Shepard's hallucination. He is a Leviathan Reaper so it's only natural for him to use the most powerful (but less subtle) method of enthrallment to pacify Shepard. Still he can't exert full control hence the Destroy option (maybe because there's a flaw in harvesting that makes a Reaper imperfect).demersel wrote...
paxxton wrote...
Enthrallment is exactly what happens in the ending. I suppose out of desperation Harbinger uses his last resort weapon. He's in close proximity to Shepard an thus is able to kick him out of his mind.
I may be what is happening.
But at the same time it may not. (in the sense that it is just the indoctrinated part of shepard's mind trying to take over.
There are evidences to that.
The kid - is possibly purely a figment of shepard's imagination.
The dreams - indoctrinated part of Shepard's mind is growing stronger and trying to take over, at the moments, when he is most emotionally and physicly depleted.
Harbinger's blast could have just knocked Shepard unconcious, and the indoctrinated part of his mind tryies to take full control - over his core reasoning and goals, by twisting that facts that are known to shepard by this point. This would explain shepards own voiceover over the catalyst lines.
Of course Harbinger can still have some part in it, since he's nearby, (ranging from full involvement to just helping passively by being in the vicinity) - but at the same time he may not take any part at all.
My point is, Harbinger isn't really reqiered to be the one guarding the beam att this point and inflicting the hallucination.
The hallucination might not even be inflicted at all - just indoctrinted part of shepard's mind (indoctrination has a mind of it's own) taking over.
One way- or the other - only time and future DLC will show.
Modifié par paxxton, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:29 .
LOL!TSA_383 wrote...
Big G13 wrote...
demersel wrote...
Big G13 wrote...
Yea, I don't think the catalyst believes it rebelled. It just evolved a different interpretation of it's core programing.
Who cares what this thing thinks? (if there is even such a thing in the first place).
By even entertaing a possibility that such madness as the reapers might have a valid point, you already make the first step on the way of being indoctrinated.
Sure thing. I base my spiritual self help program on thescientologyTSA patented self-help system.
The first step requires you to send me $3000
Best of luck.
paxxton wrote...
Enthrallment is exactly what happens in the ending. I suppose out of desperation Harbinger uses his last resort weapon. He's in close proximity to Shepard an thus is able to kick him out of his mind.demersel wrote...
paxxton wrote...
Well, it doesn't fit. There are no self-induced hallucinations with respect to indoctrination in the lore of ME. Leviathan is an external catalyst that creates images inside Shepard's head. In the ending it's not Shepard who has to have all the pieces but Harbinger who uses his memories to create the dream. Harbinger is instrumental in making IT have any sense. You can't put a random, non-Leviathan Reaper there.
Oh, But there are! Cerberus crew at the dead reaper. The reaper itself, it's mind was dead, but the crew still got indoctrinated. All other instances of people getting indoctrintated just by artifacts all over ME1 and 2.
What leviathan DLC told us for certain is that Leviathan's enthrallment is a process, that reqieres direct input from the leviathan. It is an action.
contrary to it, the indoctrination does not reqiere direct input from a reaper. It just happens. it is a process. It does not reqiere the presence of the operator. It is an automated process with a mind of it's own. You could really call it an AI of sorts...oh wait... :innocent:
paxxton wrote...
I think that the analogy to the ending we've got with Leviathan proves that Harbinger plays a gigantic role in inducing Shepard's hallucination. He is a Leviathan Reaper so it's only natural for him to use the most powerful (but less subtle) method of enthrallment to pacify Shepard. Still he can't exert full control hence the Destroy option.demersel wrote...
paxxton wrote...
Enthrallment is exactly what happens in the ending. I suppose out of desperation Harbinger uses his last resort weapon. He's in close proximity to Shepard an thus is able to kick him out of his mind.
I may be what is happening.
But at the same time it may not. (in the sense that it is just the indoctrinated part of shepard's mind trying to take over.
There are evidences to that.
The kid - is possibly purely a figment of shepard's imagination.
The dreams - indoctrinated part of Shepard's mind is growing stronger and trying to take over, at the moments, when he is most emotionally and physicly depleted.
Harbinger's blast could have just knocked Shepard unconcious, and the indoctrinated part of his mind tryies to take full control - over his core reasoning and goals, by twisting that facts that are known to shepard by this point. This would explain shepards own voiceover over the catalyst lines.
Of course Harbinger can still have some part in it, since he's nearby, (ranging from full involvement to just helping passively by being in the vicinity) - but at the same time he may not take any part at all.
My point is, Harbinger isn't really reqiered to be the one guarding the beam att this point and inflicting the hallucination.
The hallucination might not even be inflicted at all - just indoctrinted part of shepard's mind (indoctrination has a mind of it's own) taking over.
One way- or the other - only time and future DLC will show.
Modifié par paxxton, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:33 .
Lokanaiya wrote...
paxxton wrote...
Enthrallment is exactly what happens in the ending. I suppose out of desperation Harbinger uses his last resort weapon. He's in close proximity to Shepard an thus is able to kick him out of his mind.demersel wrote...
paxxton wrote...
Well, it doesn't fit. There are no self-induced hallucinations with respect to indoctrination in the lore of ME. Leviathan is an external catalyst that creates images inside Shepard's head. In the ending it's not Shepard who has to have all the pieces but Harbinger who uses his memories to create the dream. Harbinger is instrumental in making IT have any sense. You can't put a random, non-Leviathan Reaper there.
Oh, But there are! Cerberus crew at the dead reaper. The reaper itself, it's mind was dead, but the crew still got indoctrinated. All other instances of people getting indoctrintated just by artifacts all over ME1 and 2.
What leviathan DLC told us for certain is that Leviathan's enthrallment is a process, that reqieres direct input from the leviathan. It is an action.
contrary to it, the indoctrination does not reqiere direct input from a reaper. It just happens. it is a process. It does not reqiere the presence of the operator. It is an automated process with a mind of it's own. You could really call it an AI of sorts...oh wait... :innocent:
But if Harbinger is using the Leviathan's method of mind control, then why would our choice matter at all? What's the point? He's already kicked Shepard out of his mind, so Shepard should be in a cold, dark, kind of void space with no way to do anything. That and the breath scene occurs when Shepard is lying down somewhere, not up and walking around.
Leviathan could create artificial environments (like the desk and the microscope). What we see in the ending is that taken a step further, creating a whole surrounding.Lokanaiya wrote...
paxxton wrote...
Enthrallment is exactly what happens in the ending. I suppose out of desperation Harbinger uses his last resort weapon. He's in close proximity to Shepard an thus is able to kick him out of his mind.demersel wrote...
paxxton wrote...
Well, it doesn't fit. There are no self-induced hallucinations with respect to indoctrination in the lore of ME. Leviathan is an external catalyst that creates images inside Shepard's head. In the ending it's not Shepard who has to have all the pieces but Harbinger who uses his memories to create the dream. Harbinger is instrumental in making IT have any sense. You can't put a random, non-Leviathan Reaper there.
Oh, But there are! Cerberus crew at the dead reaper. The reaper itself, it's mind was dead, but the crew still got indoctrinated. All other instances of people getting indoctrintated just by artifacts all over ME1 and 2.
What leviathan DLC told us for certain is that Leviathan's enthrallment is a process, that reqieres direct input from the leviathan. It is an action.
contrary to it, the indoctrination does not reqiere direct input from a reaper. It just happens. it is a process. It does not reqiere the presence of the operator. It is an automated process with a mind of it's own. You could really call it an AI of sorts...oh wait... :innocent:
But if Harbinger is using the Leviathan's method of mind control, then why would our choice matter at all? What's the point? He's already kicked Shepard out of his mind, so Shepard should be in a cold, dark, kind of void space with no way to do anything. That and the breath scene occurs when Shepard is lying down somewhere, not up and walking around.
paxxton wrote...
Leviathan could create artificial environments (like the desk and the microscope). What we see in the ending is that taken a step further, creating a whole surrounding.Lokanaiya wrote...
paxxton wrote...
Enthrallment is exactly what happens in the ending. I suppose out of desperation Harbinger uses his last resort weapon. He's in close proximity to Shepard an thus is able to kick him out of his mind.demersel wrote...
paxxton wrote...
Well, it doesn't fit. There are no self-induced hallucinations with respect to indoctrination in the lore of ME. Leviathan is an external catalyst that creates images inside Shepard's head. In the ending it's not Shepard who has to have all the pieces but Harbinger who uses his memories to create the dream. Harbinger is instrumental in making IT have any sense. You can't put a random, non-Leviathan Reaper there.
Oh, But there are! Cerberus crew at the dead reaper. The reaper itself, it's mind was dead, but the crew still got indoctrinated. All other instances of people getting indoctrintated just by artifacts all over ME1 and 2.
What leviathan DLC told us for certain is that Leviathan's enthrallment is a process, that reqieres direct input from the leviathan. It is an action.
contrary to it, the indoctrination does not reqiere direct input from a reaper. It just happens. it is a process. It does not reqiere the presence of the operator. It is an automated process with a mind of it's own. You could really call it an AI of sorts...oh wait... :innocent:
But if Harbinger is using the Leviathan's method of mind control, then why would our choice matter at all? What's the point? He's already kicked Shepard out of his mind, so Shepard should be in a cold, dark, kind of void space with no way to do anything. That and the breath scene occurs when Shepard is lying down somewhere, not up and walking around.
Modifié par BatmanTurian, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:38 .
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