80611 réponses à ce sujet

[paxxton]

Harbinger needs Shepard on his side. We still don't know why. Shepard has to willingfully accept the Reapers' motives/logic/whatever. Otherwise, he'd be useless.

Modifié par paxxton, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:41 .

[Lokanaiya]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Well, it doesn't fit. There are no self-induced hallucinations with respect to indoctrination in the lore of ME. Leviathan is an external catalyst that creates images inside Shepard's head. In the ending it's not Shepard who has to have all the pieces but Harbinger who uses his memories to create the dream. Harbinger is instrumental in making IT have any sense. You can't put a random, non-Leviathan Reaper there.

Oh, But there are!  Cerberus crew at the dead reaper. The reaper itself, it's mind was dead, but the crew still got indoctrinated. All other instances of people getting indoctrintated just by artifacts all over ME1 and 2.

What leviathan DLC told us for certain is that Leviathan's enthrallment is a process, that reqieres direct input from the leviathan. It is an action. 

contrary to it, the indoctrination does not reqiere direct input from a reaper. It just happens. it is a process. It does not reqiere the presence of the operator. It is an automated process with a mind of it's own. You could really call it an AI of sorts...oh wait... :innocent:

Enthrallment is exactly what happens in the ending. I suppose out of desperation Harbinger uses his last resort weapon. He's in close proximity to Shepard an thus is able to kick him out of his mind.

But if Harbinger is using the Leviathan's method of mind control, then why would our choice matter at all? What's the point? He's already kicked Shepard out of his mind, so Shepard should be in a cold, dark, kind of void space with no way to do anything. That and the breath scene occurs when Shepard is lying down somewhere, not up and walking around.

Destroy is Shepard's willpower breaking the mind control. Refuse is basically doing nothing and spouting platitudes.

Well, yes, for indoctrination. But Leviathan-style enthrallment is different. It's shoving the person out of their own mind and putting them into a void while the Leviathan/Harbinger takes control. I might be able to accept that Shepard would also be able to break out of that also, but where's the cold, dark space everyone else describes? Why the elaborate illusion? And why did it take so long, when Shepard was able to passively (without really knowing what he was doing) break out of it several times when near the Leviathans, which you would think would be much harder?

[paxxton]

BatmanTurian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Leviathan could create artificial environments (like the desk and the microscope). What we see in the ending is that taken a step further, creating a whole surrounding.

Actually, that makes sense that it might be more powerful, since Harbinger is made up of millions (perhaps billions) of Leviathans.

The conversation with Leviathan served a purpose to hint players to the way the ending might unfold.

Modifié par paxxton, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:44 .

[BatmanTurian]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Well, yes, for indoctrination. But Leviathan-style enthrallment is different. It's shoving the person out of their own mind and putting them into a void while the Leviathan/Harbinger takes control. I might be able to accept that Shepard would also be able to break out of that also, but where's the cold, dark space everyone else describes? Why the elaborate illusion? And why did it take so long, when Shepard was able to passively (without really knowing what he was doing) break out of it several times when near the Leviathans, which you would think would be much harder?

Can't it be a little bit of both? That's what would give Harbinger the edge over the other Reapers.

[Lokanaiya]

paxxton wrote...

Harbinger needs Shepard on his side. We still don't know why. Shepard has to willingfully accept the Reapers' motives/logic/whatever. Otherwise, he'd be useless.

Yes, I thought that was established a long time ago. Actually, that goes with regular indoctrination... if Harby was using Leviathan style mind control the breath scene would be occuring when Shepard was walking around somewhere and suddenly broke free.

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...
I think that the analogy to the ending we've got with Leviathan proves that Harbinger plays a gigantic role in inducing Shepard's hallucination. He is a Leviathan Reaper so it's only natural for him to use the most powerful (but less subtle) method of enthrallment to pacify Shepard. Still he can't exert full control hence the Destroy option (maybe because there's a flaw in harvesting that makes a Reaper imperfect).

Again, you might be 100% correct. 
All i'm saying that it is also totally possible for it to be purely Shapard's struggle for control of his own mind. 

Actually that makes much more sense in light of the decision chamber.

Imagine:
You are directly confronted by the indoctrinated part of your mind. 
It is represented by the catalyst, which assumes the form of the kid, from your dreams and which could have created the kid in the first place)
Everything that is happening is not real. It doesn't have any effect on anything, besides yourself. 
Everything that is there is constructed from what your own mind knows. 
The choces represent desire. 
Two of them have you accepting reaper logic, and reapers as part of existence, while totally receting everything that has to do with you, your life, and your identity. 
One has you rejecting anything to with the reapers and denying them a right to exist no matter what.
Refuse has you taking the choices into consideration, including the two presented by the indoctrination, but ultimately finding that you are not prepered to devote into any of them, including the one where you reject everything that has to do with the reapers (I will not accept, I will not reject, I'd rather just die (I'm a woman, i don't want to make any dicisions, I want a dress))

If we imagine, that in reality Shepard is in some sort of coma, which is likely, destroy - leads to him breaking out of it free of indoctrination, and sill Himself. Control and synthesis has his identitty melted, and indoctrination fully taking over - he siezes to be Shepard as we know him.
Refuse has Shepard never waking up from coma. (he may be technically alive, but hi is forever trapped in a stalematte inside his mind unable to do anything, while indoctrination might actually progress, and he might still wake uup some time later as fully indoctrinated person, if he doesn't die first) 

[Lokanaiya]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Well, yes, for indoctrination. But Leviathan-style enthrallment is different. It's shoving the person out of their own mind and putting them into a void while the Leviathan/Harbinger takes control. I might be able to accept that Shepard would also be able to break out of that also, but where's the cold, dark space everyone else describes? Why the elaborate illusion? And why did it take so long, when Shepard was able to passively (without really knowing what he was doing) break out of it several times when near the Leviathans, which you would think would be much harder?

Can't it be a little bit of both? That's what would give Harbinger the edge over the other Reapers.

I don't agree, but what I really want to know is, storywise, why it would be that way. From what I can see, everything you guys are saying is from a "we've already reached our conclusion and now we're defending it" point of view. I guess what I really want to know is how and why you reached the conclusion that Harbinger uses Leviathan-style enthrallment, and what your evidence for it is.

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
I think that the analogy to the ending we've got with Leviathan proves that Harbinger plays a gigantic role in inducing Shepard's hallucination. He is a Leviathan Reaper so it's only natural for him to use the most powerful (but less subtle) method of enthrallment to pacify Shepard. Still he can't exert full control hence the Destroy option (maybe because there's a flaw in harvesting that makes a Reaper imperfect).

Again, you might be 100% correct. 
All i'm saying that it is also totally possible for it to be purely Shapard's struggle for control of his own mind. 

Actually that makes much more sense in light of the decision chamber.

Imagine:
You are directly confronted by the indoctrinated part of your mind. 
It is represented by the catalyst, which assumes the form of the kid, from your dreams and which could have created the kid in the first place)
Everything that is happening is not real. It doesn't have any effect on anything, besides yourself. 
Everything that is there is constructed from what your own mind knows. 
The choces represent desire. 
Two of them have you accepting reaper logic, and reapers as part of existence, while totally receting everything that has to do with you, your life, and your identity. 
One has you rejecting anything to with the reapers and denying them a right to exist no matter what.
Refuse has you taking the choices into consideration, including the two presented by the indoctrination, but ultimately finding that you are not prepered to devote into any of them, including the one where you reject everything that has to do with the reapers (I will not accept, I will not reject, I'd rather just die (I'm a woman, i don't want to make any dicisions, I want a dress))

If we imagine, that in reality Shepard is in some sort of coma, which is likely, destroy - leads to him breaking out of it free of indoctrination, and sill Himself. Control and synthesis has his identitty melted, and indoctrination fully taking over - he siezes to be Shepard as we know him.
Refuse has Shepard never waking up from coma. (he may be technically alive, but hi is forever trapped in a stalematte inside his mind unable to do anything, while indoctrination might actually progress, and he might still wake uup some time later as fully indoctrinated person, if he doesn't die first) 

Shepard is partly indoctrinated prior to the ending and based on what he did during the trilogy he is presented with several choices. The decision chamber is modeled after the decision wheel (courtesy of smokinotter1). Remember that the ending is meant to have an impact on the player who is also being indoctrinated.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[Vibez]

I've been reading your discussion and one thing comes to my mind. You know guys what freaks me out the most? Thet even if (when) Bioware releases few additional DLC hinting each time more indoctrination, and eventually even releases something that directly proves it, it will end the same way like it is now - Shepard waking up in rubble, only this time, the cinematic will show up after all 3 endings 

Modifié par Vibez, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:03 .

[paxxton]

Vibez wrote...

I've been reading your discussion and one thing comes to my mind. You know guys what freaks me out the most? Thet even if (when) Bioware releases few additional DLC hinting each time more indoctrination, and eventually even releases something that directly proves it, it will end the same way like it is now - Shepard waking up in rubble, only this time, the cinematic will show up after all 3 endings 

I'm not counting on anything post-breath in ME3, though it would be great to finish the fight. But If I have to wait for Mass Effect 4 to find out what happens next, SO BE IT.

[demersel]

 Why can't you guys imagine for a second, that Harbinger is just one of the reapers. Granted, he is the first one, and he is made out of the Leviathans, and we have a personal history with it. But so what? The real enemy is the AI that created the reapers. And that is indoctrination itself. 
Indoctrination is that AI. It is not simple conditioning. Niether it is a hive mind. Something like the nano computer. Like that one thing in Hitchhiker's Guide to the galaxy (i think it was the "Life, Universe and Everything" central plot) - the super computer that some aliens built to find an answer to life before Earth, and unsitisfied with the answer it gave they desintegrated into atomic dust. Only it didn't turn it off. It bacame a nebula. And influenced a planet that was inside it - so it's inhabitants would hate all the rest of the universe and devote themselves  to a purpose of destroying it all. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krikkit#Krikkit


Remember, Devs even said "don't get too attauched to individual plots"  thing, when answering a question why wasn't Harbinger featured more prominently.

Modifié par demersel, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:15 .

[demersel]

Vibez wrote...

I've been reading your discussion and one thing comes to my mind. You know guys what freaks me out the most? Thet even if (when) Bioware releases few additional DLC hinting each time more indoctrination, and eventually even releases something that directly proves it, it will end the same way like it is now - Shepard waking up in rubble, only this time, the cinematic will show up after all 3 endings 

That is a very likely possibility. 

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...

Shepard is partly indoctrinated prior to the ending and based on what he did during the trilogy he is presented with several choices. The decision chamber is modeled after the decision wheel (courtesy of smokinotter1). Remember that the ending is meant to have an impact on the player who is also being indoctrinated.

That is exactly my point, so i'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. 

[BatmanTurian]

Lokanaiya wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Well, yes, for indoctrination. But Leviathan-style enthrallment is different. It's shoving the person out of their own mind and putting them into a void while the Leviathan/Harbinger takes control. I might be able to accept that Shepard would also be able to break out of that also, but where's the cold, dark space everyone else describes? Why the elaborate illusion? And why did it take so long, when Shepard was able to passively (without really knowing what he was doing) break out of it several times when near the Leviathans, which you would think would be much harder?

Can't it be a little bit of both? That's what would give Harbinger the edge over the other Reapers.

I don't agree, but what I really want to know is, storywise, why it would be that way. From what I can see, everything you guys are saying is from a "we've already reached our conclusion and now we're defending it" point of view. I guess what I really want to know is how and why you reached the conclusion that Harbinger uses Leviathan-style enthrallment, and what your evidence for it is.

He's  made of Leviathans and the experiences are similar is my only defense.

[demersel]

Really, guys. Check out the articles on the Omega Point, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, and the Krikkit one. It is very relevant ot what we are discussing here.

[BatmanTurian]

Vibez wrote...

I've been reading your discussion and one thing comes to my mind. You know guys what freaks me out the most? Thet even if (when) Bioware releases few additional DLC hinting each time more indoctrination, and eventually even releases something that directly proves it, it will end the same way like it is now - Shepard waking up in rubble, only this time, the cinematic will show up after all 3 endings 

And then I'd hope they'd put up on the screen:

" To Be Continued in Mass Effect 4 "

Otherwise that would still feel like an F U.

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Shepard is partly indoctrinated prior to the ending and based on what he did during the trilogy he is presented with several choices. The decision chamber is modeled after the decision wheel (courtesy of smokinotter1). Remember that the ending is meant to have an impact on the player who is also being indoctrinated.

That is exactly my point, so i'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. 

Me neither.  Just outputing my thoughts.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:14 .

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

 Why can't you guys imagine for a second, that Harbinger is just one of the reapers. Granted, he is the first one, and he is made out of the Leviathans, and we have a personal history with it. But so what? The real enemy is the AI that created the reapers. And that is indoctrination itself. 
Indoctrination is that AI. It is not simple conditioning. Niether it is a hive mind. Something like the nano computer. Like that one thing in Hitchhiker's Guide to the galaxy (i think it was the "Life, universe and Universe" central plot) - the super computer that some aliens built to find an answer to life before Earth, and unsitisfied with the answer it gave they desintegrated into atomic dust. Only it didn't turn it off. It bacame a nebula. And influenced a planet that was inside it - so it's inhabitants would hate all the rest of the universe and devote themselves  to a purpose of destroying it all. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krikkit#Krikkit


Remember, Devs even said "don't get too attauched to individual plots"  thing, when answering a question why wasn't Harbinger featured more prominently.

I dunno. Doesn't make as much sense to me but I suppose it's plausible.

[Home run MF]

I'm reading in a lot of youtube and twitter coments that people are becoming unsure about the endings because of the intelligence being a rogue AI and therefore it cannot be trusted.  

[Lokanaiya]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Well, yes, for indoctrination. But Leviathan-style enthrallment is different. It's shoving the person out of their own mind and putting them into a void while the Leviathan/Harbinger takes control. I might be able to accept that Shepard would also be able to break out of that also, but where's the cold, dark space everyone else describes? Why the elaborate illusion? And why did it take so long, when Shepard was able to passively (without really knowing what he was doing) break out of it several times when near the Leviathans, which you would think would be much harder?

Can't it be a little bit of both? That's what would give Harbinger the edge over the other Reapers.

I don't agree, but what I really want to know is, storywise, why it would be that way. From what I can see, everything you guys are saying is from a "we've already reached our conclusion and now we're defending it" point of view. I guess what I really want to know is how and why you reached the conclusion that Harbinger uses Leviathan-style enthrallment, and what your evidence for it is.

He's  made of Leviathans and the experiences are similar is my only defense.

The first point is some evidence, but how are the experiences similar?

Sorry if I'm nitpicking here... I have a tendency to get caught on the smallest details. Just tell me if I'm becoming too obnoxious.

[BatmanTurian]

Home run MF wrote...

I'm reading in a lot of youtube and twitter coments that people are becoming unsure about the endings because of the intelligence being a rogue AI and therefore it cannot be trusted.  

lol hilarious. It's what we've been saying all along except no one was listening to us.

[BatmanTurian]

Lokanaiya wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Well, yes, for indoctrination. But Leviathan-style enthrallment is different. It's shoving the person out of their own mind and putting them into a void while the Leviathan/Harbinger takes control. I might be able to accept that Shepard would also be able to break out of that also, but where's the cold, dark space everyone else describes? Why the elaborate illusion? And why did it take so long, when Shepard was able to passively (without really knowing what he was doing) break out of it several times when near the Leviathans, which you would think would be much harder?

Can't it be a little bit of both? That's what would give Harbinger the edge over the other Reapers.

I don't agree, but what I really want to know is, storywise, why it would be that way. From what I can see, everything you guys are saying is from a "we've already reached our conclusion and now we're defending it" point of view. I guess what I really want to know is how and why you reached the conclusion that Harbinger uses Leviathan-style enthrallment, and what your evidence for it is.

He's  made of Leviathans and the experiences are similar is my only defense.

The first point is some evidence, but how are the experiences similar?

Sorry if I'm nitpicking here... I have a tendency to get caught on the smallest details. Just tell me if I'm becoming too obnoxious.

Shepard wakes up in the same place and pose. The starkid and Leviathan say something similar. Both experiences seem otherworldly. I don't have anything concrete. It might be more like a gut feeling.

[demersel]

By the way. By defenition you can't create an AI. - this would be a VI. An AI can only be created by chance, and unintentional. AI is artificial thing becoming alive. (it doesn't even reqiered to be selfaware). 

For example, in the Hyperion books, AI got created by chance, - it grew out of a small experiment in some university, that was aimed at modelling evolution in program enviroment, reprsenting piece of code as evolution agents.
Surprisingly it came out not as a derevative of initial coding, but rather out of a virus parisiting on it.

Modifié par demersel, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:24 .

[Home run MF]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shepard wakes up in the same place and pose. The starkid and Leviathan say something similar. Both experiences seem otherworldly. I don't have anything concrete. It might be more like a gut feeling.

Lol first thing I tought when I saw Shep kneeling in front of Ann was the IT guys are gonna have a field day with this.
Sometimes you just need to distance yourself a bit to see the bigger picture.

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

By the way. By defenition you can't create an AI. - this would be a VI. An AI can only be created by chance, and unintentional. AI is artificial thing becoming alive. (it doesn't even reqiered to be selfaware). 

For example, in the Hyperion books, AI got created by chance, - it grew out of a small experiment in some university, that was aimed at modelling evolution in program enviroment, reprsenting piece of code as evolution agents.
Surprisingly it came out not as a derevative of initial coding, but rather out of a virus parisiting on it.

Nah, you can create an AI by utilizing machine learning. By observing their environment they become more "intelligent".