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[Lokanaiya]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Well, yes, for indoctrination. But Leviathan-style enthrallment is different. It's shoving the person out of their own mind and putting them into a void while the Leviathan/Harbinger takes control. I might be able to accept that Shepard would also be able to break out of that also, but where's the cold, dark space everyone else describes? Why the elaborate illusion? And why did it take so long, when Shepard was able to passively (without really knowing what he was doing) break out of it several times when near the Leviathans, which you would think would be much harder?

Can't it be a little bit of both? That's what would give Harbinger the edge over the other Reapers.

I don't agree, but what I really want to know is, storywise, why it would be that way. From what I can see, everything you guys are saying is from a "we've already reached our conclusion and now we're defending it" point of view. I guess what I really want to know is how and why you reached the conclusion that Harbinger uses Leviathan-style enthrallment, and what your evidence for it is.

He's  made of Leviathans and the experiences are similar is my only defense.

The first point is some evidence, but how are the experiences similar?

Sorry if I'm nitpicking here... I have a tendency to get caught on the smallest details. Just tell me if I'm becoming too obnoxious.

Shepard wakes up in the same place and pose. The starkid and Leviathan say something similar. Both experiences seem otherworldly. I don't have anything concrete. It might be more like a gut feeling.

Ah, alright. I had just figured that was from both being a dream and both having a greater intelligence creating an enviroment and interacting with you in it.

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...
Nah, you can create an AI by utilizing machine learning. By observing their environment they become more "intelligent".

That would be a VI. 
What is the difference between VI and AI?

Anyway. - Niether of us is an expert on AI programming, So this is just some two ignorant dudes on the internet, speculating on thing they don't even remotely understand.  

Modifié par demersel, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:32 .

[TheConstantOne]

Lokanaiya wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Well, yes, for indoctrination. But Leviathan-style enthrallment is different. It's shoving the person out of their own mind and putting them into a void while the Leviathan/Harbinger takes control. I might be able to accept that Shepard would also be able to break out of that also, but where's the cold, dark space everyone else describes? Why the elaborate illusion? And why did it take so long, when Shepard was able to passively (without really knowing what he was doing) break out of it several times when near the Leviathans, which you would think would be much harder?

Can't it be a little bit of both? That's what would give Harbinger the edge over the other Reapers.

I don't agree, but what I really want to know is, storywise, why it would be that way. From what I can see, everything you guys are saying is from a "we've already reached our conclusion and now we're defending it" point of view. I guess what I really want to know is how and why you reached the conclusion that Harbinger uses Leviathan-style enthrallment, and what your evidence for it is.

I'm of the opinion that harbinger, like all Reapers, uses Reaper-style indoctrination. Indoctrination is not the same as the Leviathan's mind control; it is a refined version of it. The DLC makes that point explicitly. So the final decision chamber sequence bears similarities to Leviathan indoctrination (ex: Shepard being on his/her hands and knees when the vision starts) but still has pretty big differences. The reason Shepard can resist the influences is because indoctrination changes how a person's mind works on a fundamental level and aligns their goals with Reaper goals. The Leviathans' mind control ability directly controls an individual but does not actually change their mind on a basic level. This seems to hold true based on what we've seen.

I'd guess that Reaper indoctrination, once it breaks an individual, will forever influence a person. Leviathan control can only influence a person while its in effect. Harbinger does have the ability to "assume direct control" in a manner that seems very much like what Leviathans can do but this direct control technique is NOT the same as indoctrination

Edit: Fixed a massive quote problem

Modifié par TheConstantOne, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:33 .

[BatmanTurian]

Home run MF wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shepard wakes up in the same place and pose. The starkid and Leviathan say something similar. Both experiences seem otherworldly. I don't have anything concrete. It might be more like a gut feeling.

Lol first thing I tought when I saw Shep kneeling in front of Ann was the IT guys are gonna have a field day with this.
Sometimes you just need to distance yourself a bit to see the bigger picture.

What do you mean by that?

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Nah, you can create an AI by utilizing machine learning. By observing their environment they become more "intelligent".

That would be a VI. 
What is the difference between VI and AI?

Anyway. - Niether of us is an expert on AI programming, So this is just some two ignorant dudes on the internet, speculating on thing they don't even remotely understand.  

A.I.

V.I.

Clearly explained and radically different. One programs itself, the other follows preprogrammed routines.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:36 .

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Nah, you can create an AI by utilizing machine learning. By observing their environment they become more "intelligent".

That would be a VI. 
What is the difference between VI and AI?

Anyway. - Niether of us is an expert on AI programming, So this is just some two ignorant dudes on the internet, speculating on thing they don't even remotely understand.  

How do you know I'm not an expert on AIs?

Modifié par paxxton, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:40 .

[paxxton]

BatmanTurian wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Nah, you can create an AI by utilizing machine learning. By observing their environment they become more "intelligent".

That would be a VI. 
What is the difference between VI and AI?

Anyway. - Niether of us is an expert on AI programming, So this is just some two ignorant dudes on the internet, speculating on thing they don't even remotely understand.  

A.I.

V.I.

Clearly explained and radically different. One programs itself, the other follows preprogrammed routines.

Exactly.

[demersel]

TheConstantOne wrote...

I'm of the opinion that harbinger, like all Reapers, uses Reaper-style indoctrination. Indoctrination is not the same as the Leviathan's mind control; it is a refined version of it. The DLC makes that point explicitly. So the final decision chamber sequence bears similarities to Leviathan indoctrination (ex: Shepard being on his/her hands and knees when the vision starts) but still has pretty big differences. The reason Shepard can resist the influences is because indoctrination changes how a person's mind works on a fundamental level and aligns their goals with Reaper goals. The Leviathans' mind control ability directly controls an individual but does not actually change their mind on a basic level. This seems to hold true based on what we've seen.

I'd guess that Reaper indoctrination, once it breaks an individual, will forever influence a person. Leviathan control can only influence a person while its in effect. Harbinger does have the ability to "assume direct control" in a manner that seems very much like what Leviathans can do but this direct control technique is NOT the same as indoctrination

This. I agree completely.

Highlighted the key points. 

[demersel]

BatmanTurian wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Nah, you can create an AI by utilizing machine learning. By observing their environment they become more "intelligent".

That would be a VI. 
What is the difference between VI and AI?

Anyway. - Niether of us is an expert on AI programming, So this is just some two ignorant dudes on the internet, speculating on thing they don't even remotely understand.  

A.I.

V.I.

Clearly explained and radically different. One programs itself, the other follows preprogrammed routines.

Ok. Read the article on the A.I. again and tell me it does not apply to indoctriation. (but first really think about it - imagine that a person's mind is that blue box. It can be a person or a reaper - reaper sttill has a single mind and personality - that would be the personality of an AI - but instead of just one mind, one blue box - it has millions - they are connected in a compiting arrey) 

- 
An Artificial Intelligence[/b] (AI) is a self-aware computing system capable of learning and independent decision making. Creation of a conscious AI requires adaptive code, a slow, expensive education, and a specialized quantum computer called a "blue box". 

- 
An AI cannot be transmitted across a communication channel or computer network. Without its blue box, an AI is no more than data files. Loading these files into a new blue box will create a new personality, as variations in the quantum hardware and runtime results create unpredictable variations. 


Note the use of word quantum. :innocent:

Modifié par demersel, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:45 .

[Home run MF]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Shepard wakes up in the same place and pose. The starkid and Leviathan say something similar. Both experiences seem otherworldly. I don't have anything concrete. It might be more like a gut feeling.

Lol first thing I tought when I saw Shep kneeling in front of Ann was the IT guys are gonna have a field day with this.
Sometimes you just need to distance yourself a bit to see the bigger picture.

What do you mean by that?

Nothing just that sometimes I think if this is not a big failure and my gut betrayed me but then I look at the literal point of view, I mean three frigging' games talking about IT, and all it takes it's a random youtube comment to bring me in again.
What can I say I love this game, also IDK if what I'm typing makes any sense so goodnight everybody, and happy dreams 

[paxxton]

I'll be going now. Have a troll-free chat.

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Nah, you can create an AI by utilizing machine learning. By observing their environment they become more "intelligent".

That would be a VI. 
What is the difference between VI and AI?

Anyway. - Niether of us is an expert on AI programming, So this is just some two ignorant dudes on the internet, speculating on thing they don't even remotely understand.  

A.I.

V.I.

Clearly explained and radically different. One programs itself, the other follows preprogrammed routines.

Ok. Read the article on the A.I. again and tell me it does not apply to indoctriation. (but first really think about it - imagine that a person's mind is that blue box. It can be a person or a reaper - reaper sttill has a single mind and personality - that would be the personality of an AI - but instead of just one mind, one blue box - it has millions - they are connected in a compiting arrey) 

- 
[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">An ] (AI) is a self-aware computing system capable of learning and independent decision making. Creation of a conscious AI requires adaptive code, a slow, expensive education, and a specialized quantum computer called a "blue box".[/color] 

- 
An AI cannot be transmitted across a communication channel or computer network. Without its blue box, an AI is no more than data files. Loading these files into a new blue box will create a new personality, as variations in the quantum hardware and runtime results create unpredictable variations. 


Note the use of word quantum. :innocent:

yes, you're describing a Reaper.

[BatmanTurian]

bye guys

[demersel]

 And now compare the article on VI from MassEffect Wiki with this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence 


My point being:   that what we define as an A.I. in real world is defined as a V.I. in mass effect universe and lore. 

Modifié par demersel, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:49 .

[demersel]

I'm also describing a single person affected by the indoctrination - it forms new personality.
And you can compare indoctrination with uploading simple data packages into a person's mind.

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

I'm also describing a single person affected by the indoctrination - it forms new personality.
And you can compare indoctrination with uploading simple data packages into a person's mind.

Hmmmm... and that ties in with the Leviathan belief that organics are software plus hardware and synthetics are just software? I kind of see where you're going with this.

[demersel]

So this proves that the simpiot of the indoctrination (data packages) and a mind (any mind) - creates an A.I. accourding to the ME lore.

Which means - leviathans created data packages that would condition everyone to preserve organic life at all cost. Those data packages combined with an organic mind create an AI as product of simbiot.

Proven.

[demersel]

BatmanTurian wrote...

demersel wrote...

I'm also describing a single person affected by the indoctrination - it forms new personality.
And you can compare indoctrination with uploading simple data packages into a person's mind.

Hmmmm... and that ties in with the Leviathan belief that organics are software plus hardware and synthetics are just software? I kind of see where you're going with this.

And that would explain how they got harvested. It got into the minds of leviathans (which they didn't anticipate), and those leviathans decided it would be a great idea to make themselves into a smushy to create a giant eternal robotic version of them. 

Modifié par demersel, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:56 .

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

So this proves that the simpiot of the indoctrination (data packages) and a mind (any mind) - creates an A.I. accourding to the ME lore.

Which means - leviathans created data packages that would condition everyone to preserve organic life at all cost. Those data packages combined with an organic mind create an AI as product of simbiot.

Proven.

I dunno. It seems awkward since organics are already self-aware. Seems like that would be something they would do to synthetics. It doesn't transfer as well to organics. In fact, it causes permanent brain damage, nervous breakdowns, and psychosis.

[demersel]

I've really been trying to convey this simple point for at least a few days now.

[demersel]

BatmanTurian wrote...

demersel wrote...

So this proves that the simpiot of the indoctrination (data packages) and a mind (any mind) - creates an A.I. accourding to the ME lore.

Which means - leviathans created data packages that would condition everyone to preserve organic life at all cost. Those data packages combined with an organic mind create an AI as product of simbiot.

Proven.

I dunno. It seems awkward since organics are already self-aware. Seems like that would be something they would do to synthetics. It doesn't transfer as well to organics. In fact, it causes permanent brain damage, nervous breakdowns, and psychosis.

Kinda like the leviathan's thinking - they don't concern themselves with the personalities of lesser spiceis. So what if that thing would replace their their identity with a new one? At least they would be more mindfull about preserving life at all cost, and leviathans would still be able to use them as tools. And they just didn't consider the possibility that the too could be affected. (And if they would, it would do nothing, they thought, since they were already concerned with preservation of life at all cost)

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

I've really been trying to convey this simple point for at least a few days now.

I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around it. It's abstract.

[demersel]

BatmanTurian wrote...

demersel wrote...

I've really been trying to convey this simple point for at least a few days now.

I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around it. It's abstract.

No it's not. Is pinpoint direct. 

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

demersel wrote...

So this proves that the simpiot of the indoctrination (data packages) and a mind (any mind) - creates an A.I. accourding to the ME lore.

Which means - leviathans created data packages that would condition everyone to preserve organic life at all cost. Those data packages combined with an organic mind create an AI as product of simbiot.

Proven.

I dunno. It seems awkward since organics are already self-aware. Seems like that would be something they would do to synthetics. It doesn't transfer as well to organics. In fact, it causes permanent brain damage, nervous breakdowns, and psychosis.

Kinda like the leviathan's thinking - they don't concern themselves with the personalities of lesser spiceis. So what if that thing would replace their their identity with a new one? At least they would be more mindfull about preserving life at all cost, and leviathans would still be able to use them as tools. And they just didn't consider the possibility that the too could be affected. (And if they would, it would do nothing, they thought, since they were already concerned with preservation of life at all cost)

yeah, I get that.

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

demersel wrote...

I've really been trying to convey this simple point for at least a few days now.

I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around it. It's abstract.

No it's not. Is pinpoint direct. 

aspects of it are abstract, but I get your point.