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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#18701
byne

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

jeez, that explosion argument you guys are having really is getting old fast. for the sake of the thread please give it up!


No kidding it's getting old. That's why we wish he'd shut up. None of his arguments stand up to scrutiny.


Earlier I saw him argue that Shepard survived the explosion because the explosion isnt something that could possibly have happened, and was just added to look cool.

Thats when I started ignoring him, because that makes absolutely no sense. If you believe in the literal endings, then possible or not, the explosion clearly happened.

I suggest you just ignore him too.

With luck, he will misinterpret our being fed up with him as a sign of his victory, and leave, as literalists are wont to do.

#18702
Ace7

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here's hoping!

#18703
BatmanTurian

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Restrider wrote...

Lol, how a bunch of bad@ass/@ass turians tries to convince this one stubborn quarian. lol



You'd think your awesome calculations would be enough (really, great job) but noooooooo.

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#18704
BatmanTurian

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byne wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

jeez, that explosion argument you guys are having really is getting old fast. for the sake of the thread please give it up!


No kidding it's getting old. That's why we wish he'd shut up. None of his arguments stand up to scrutiny.


Earlier I saw him argue that Shepard survived the explosion because the explosion isnt something that could possibly have happened, and was just added to look cool.

Thats when I started ignoring him, because that makes absolutely no sense. If you believe in the literal endings, then possible or not, the explosion clearly happened.

I suggest you just ignore him too.

With luck, he will misinterpret our being fed up with him as a sign of his victory, and leave, as literalists are wont to do.


Agreed.

#18705
Ace7

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oops double post

Modifié par Ace7, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:24 .


#18706
BatmanTurian

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Ace7 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

There are elements of Mass Effect 3 that are meant to have
non-literal interpretations. The hope is that these things provide
thought-provoking discussion about the themes of the story and the
motivations of characters. As such, we would prefer not to comment on
players’ interpretations of these elements, since it would ruin the
enjoyment of such discussion by suggesting there is a single, concrete
way of viewing them.
Tully Ackland


Nice. Thanks Batman...:D


No problem. Just remember that quote when someone tells you everything in the game should be taken literally at face-value or you have a feeling coming on that I.T. is not valid.

#18707
DoomsdayDevice

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The only way it stops is when everybody stops contributing to that particular argument.

And yes, I have said this from the very beginning: they are leaving things purposely ambiguous. This means both IT and literal interpretation were created as valid possibilities.

The problem is simply the fans who want it one way or another. Both literalists and theorists want to be able to tell the other they are wrong. I fully believe in IT, but we're not getting a reveal. They will leave it ambiguous.

At best we'll be getting more things like the stuff in Leviathan that helps IT.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:29 .


#18708
BatmanTurian

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

The only way it stops is when everybody stops contributing to that particular argument.


Yeah, I'm done. Just wanted to make a few parting shots.

#18709
Restrider

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

The only way it stops is when everybody stops contributing to that particular argument.

In other words: Don't feed the troll?

#18710
Dwailing

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Well, I'm going to hopefully provide some extra discussion for people who haven't already seen this.  Two nights ago, I was thinking (And by "thinking" I mean coming up with dialogue in the shower for a confrontation between Shepard and Harbinger.), and then it hit me!  I think I understand why the Leviathans and the Reapers might think that synthetics and organics will always be at war.  This does not mean that I approve of their reasoning (I think it's crap.), and this does not mean that I agree with their conclusion.  My goal was to show why they would think so, but also to show that they could be (And probably are.) wrong.  Here's the link: http://social.biowar...20/blog/220828/

I'm also going to post a slightly more refined and better organized version here, which I'll add later.

1. The Leviathans do not believe that synthetics are alive and do not view them as having the right to self-determination.  As such, they view anything short of total obedience as being rebellion.

2. The Leviathans do not take the view that organic "software" and "hardware" (To use Legion's terms for it.) are as inseparable as most organics do (Or at least, they don't view it as being inseparable in the "lesser species".).  This is a product of their ability to take control of organic minds.  As such, The Intelligence, whatever it is, probably came to the conclusion that you could preserve an organic race solely by preserving the software (That business of melting down people into that "paste" that we see in the Collector Base.).  When I talk about software, I'm refering to the mind, the DNA, etc.  Hardware refers to what this is all stored in, i.e. the body, the brain, etc.

3. The Intelligence (And its creators, the Leviathans.) based its views on organic/synthetic relations on what it observed when it was first created.  Of course, its views were also shaped by the Leviathans' view point, which would be that anything short of total obedience is rebellion, so that would mean that they would also view the Quarian/Geth conflict as being an example of how the created (synthetics) will always rebel against their creators (organics).  Pretty frakked up logic, right? ;)

4. The Intelligence (And this is a key point.) and its creations, the Reapers, think they're still following the directives of the Leviathans.  The Leviathans gave The Intelligence the directive to preserve organic life at any cost.  In its mind, it is still following that directive.  And it seems like the Leviathans might think it is, at least partially, too.  Remember when Leviathan says that it's still serving its purpose?  Yeah. <_<  The Intelligence was created by a race that thinks anything short of total obedience is rebellion.  So, for The Intelligence to rebel, it has to think it is following the orders of its creators.

And there you have it, my hypothesis.  Please look at the original version first, then look at my new and improved version.

Edit: Actually, heck, I don't really care WHAT order you read it in, just as long as you read it. :P

Modifié par Dwailing, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:38 .


#18711
Dwailing

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Restrider wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

The only way it stops is when everybody stops contributing to that particular argument.

In other words: Don't feed the troll?


That's one way to put it, yeah.

#18712
demersel

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Rifneno wrote...

Indeed.  Arrival says hi.


While at it, lair of the Shadow Broker and Overlord also send their regards. 


Come to thing of it... the only DLC that did not yet get a follow up of somekind in ME3 was firewalker. And it had some Huge connections to the indoctrination. And if you have it you spend the rest of the game with a mystirious artefact sitting right in your cabin. (which is a sphere)

#18713
pseudonymic

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Rifneno wrote...

byne wrote...

pseudonymic wrote...

you're right, i am. but considering dlc packs by definition are optional, it can't be held pertinent to the main storyline, correct?


I dont know if I'd agree with that. It can be held as pertinent to the main story if BioWare wants it to be.


Indeed.  Arrival says hi.


from a consumer point of view, though, i have to disagree. this may be a bad analogy but it's almost like saying here, buy a pair of pants full price with a leg missing and come back tomorrow for the other leg (and additional cost). there's a reason why dlc is considered add-on. it shouldn't infer on the main focus of the original product. otherwise, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen - if there's the admission that an "incomplete product" was sold under false pretext.

ace - yes. that's what i meant. the "open to interpretation" thing is getting older than the explosions...

#18714
Dwailing

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demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Indeed.  Arrival says hi.


While at it, lair of the Shadow Broker and Overlord also send their regards. 


Come to thing of it... the only DLC that did not yet get a follow up of somekind in ME3 was firewalker. And it had some Huge connections to the indoctrination. And if you have it you spend the rest of the game with a mystirious artefact sitting right in your cabin. (which is a sphere)


Only thing I should mention about that sphere is that it IS smaller than the control spheres that we see in Leviathan.  And the control spheres in Leviathan aren't interactive.

#18715
demersel

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Really guys. Check out my theory - pages 740 - to 744. Let's discuss THAT.

#18716
Ithurael

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

There are elements of Mass Effect 3 that are meant to have
non-literal interpretations. The hope is that these things provide
thought-provoking discussion about the themes of the story and the
motivations of characters. As such, we would prefer not to comment on
players’ interpretations of these elements, since it would ruin the
enjoyment of such discussion by suggesting there is a single, concrete
way of viewing them.
Tully Ackland


Nice. Thanks Batman...:D


No problem. Just remember that quote when someone tells you everything in the game should be taken literally at face-value or you have a feeling coming on that I.T. is not valid.


IT is a valid interpretation of the ending. Everyone's headcanon and opinion is valid to them. IT Dream or IT Con are equally as valid. My personal favorite ending was the "brown explosion" ending - easily the best!

The issue arises however when fans believe that IT is canon and is the true ending to Mass Effect - something that Bioware employees have stated that they will not use for ME3.

Merizan's latest tweet stated that IT is not bioware's interpretation for the ending of ME3. And I am sure that Bioware does consider IT (and any other interpretation of the ending) to be valid. The difference (and the great arguement) is that bioware has stated they will not capitalize on that interpretation for the ending. You can say they are lying all you want, but so far three employees have stated that there is nothing else coming (one of them stated it twice).

twitter.com/JessicaMerizan/status/240646722563485696

twitter.com/JessicaMerizan/status/240672115664224256

For me - that is enough. The EC gave enough closure to be palpable and leviathan softened the blow that is starkid's org vs synth RGB moment. Mix this with Chris Priestly's statements, Tully's statement, and now Merizan's twitter (And, as we all know, twitter is canon lol) and we get the final nails in coffin for possibility of a post breath DLC.

Besides...what is wrong with just accepting the endings as they are without IT?

#18717
Restrider

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Bah, Origin is down...
@Dwailing:
In short you are saying the whole cycle thing is caused by some kind of glitch (using the perspective of organics except the Leviathans)?

#18718
demersel

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Dwailing wrote...

Only thing I should mention about that sphere is that it IS smaller than the control spheres that we see in Leviathan.  And the control spheres in Leviathan aren't interactive.


I'm not saying it's the same thing. 
And saying that it's smaller is actually inaccurate. It sure wasn't small when you find it. ))) Mu point is, that this particular story line didn't have a follow up of any sort yet, while every single other ME2 DLC had. 

#18719
pseudonymic

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Ithurael wrote...

Besides...what is wrong with just accepting the endings as they are without IT?


two words: they suck. 

#18720
Dwailing

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Restrider wrote...

Bah, Origin is down...
@Dwailing:
In short you are saying the whole cycle thing is caused by some kind of glitch (using the perspective of organics except the Leviathans)?


Yeah, The Intelligence decided that the best way to, "Preserve organic life at any cost," was to turn all organics into Reapers every 50,000 years, starting with the Leviathans.  And it didn't think it was rebelling because it was still, in its mind, anyway, following the orders of its creators.

#18721
demersel

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Ithurael wrote...

Merizan's latest tweet stated that IT is not bioware's interpretation for the ending of ME3. 


But that is not what she said! 
What she said was literally - no wake up DLC. If your version of IT relies on some DLC to continue the story after this - then sorry that was not our intention. 

She almost literally said - IT is our intention, but our version doesn't have type of wake up DLC that it relies on. 

And she said exactly this TWO times. 

Modifié par demersel, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:48 .


#18722
Rifneno

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Oh God, no... we're talking about Jessica Merizan's tweets again. This is a fate worse than death.

#18723
Dwailing

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pseudonymic wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

Besides...what is wrong with just accepting the endings as they are without IT?


two words: they suck. 


I'll expand on this.  To accept that the endings as they are are real is to accept that BioWare decided that it would be a good idea to throw the major themes for their series out the nearest airlock and blast them with really, really big guns the moment they were in range.

#18724
Dwailing

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demersel wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

Merizan's latest tweet stated that IT is not bioware's interpretation for the ending of ME3. 


But that is not what she said! 
What she said was literally - no wake up DLC. If your version of IT relies on some DLC to continue the story after this - then sorry that was not our intention. 

She almost literally said - IT is our intention, but our version doesn't have type of wake up DLC that it relies on. 

And she said exactly this TWO times. 


She also said no games will be FOCUSED on Shepard waking up.  Note that this doesn't mean there won't be a future game where Shepard was indoctrinated, it just means that he won't be the focus.

Edit: Point being, no more games where Shep is the main character.

Modifié par Dwailing, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:53 .


#18725
Rifneno

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She also said the Normandy couldn't make it to the mass relay in time. Which means it's on a planet in the Sol system that has two moons and lots of plantlife. (Free hint for anyone that failed first grade science: there is no such planet.)