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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#18901
Rifneno

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demersel wrote...

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

That is tough, man. You need to socialize more even if it hurts you. The point of socializing is not having interactions with as many people as you can but rather finding the people you are comfortable innteracting with. 


That's... not exactly how anxiety disorders work.


I know. And i'm sorry if i offended him or you somehow, that was not my intention.
All i'm saying is that it is a tough situation, and it needs time and effort to overcome it.  


You've seen me offended, you should know that I'm not. :D

But I just have to chime in on these kinds of chats... I suffered severe depression until I was 25.  A few dozen times the thought of what it'd do to my family is the only thing that kept me from suicide.  Eventually I got to a good doctor and she found a drug that worked for me.  The reason it took until I was 25 is in large part because of the idea a lot of people have that you can just "get over" these things.  You can't.  Most forms of depression and anxiety disorders are caused by the brain not producing enough of a certain neurotransmitter (usually serotonin).  Drugs work wonders.  Trying to get over it with willpower and effort is like trying to walk off a torn quadricep.

#18902
Iconoclaste

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spotlessvoid wrote...

The way I see major DLC, if you're not invested enough in ME narrative to get them, than you probably aren't the kind to care that much anyways. Unless you are one of those people who a.) Have some religious thing against spending $10 for several hours of fun or b.) don't have interwebs (sorry for your suck)

Of course, this is in theory....I fully understand why, given the endings, many people didn't want to spend for Leviathan.

Who are you talking to?

#18903
ivenoidea

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Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?

Modifié par ivenoidea, 04 septembre 2012 - 05:58 .


#18904
demersel

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paxxton wrote...
 
Leviathans created the Intelligence to find a solution. They did not equip it with Indoctrination (which was developed later by the Reapers). The Intelligence itself was bodiless and needed pawns to gather samples for analysis (for that indoctrination wasn't even necessary, maybe brute force). The same pawns might've been used by it when it turned against Leviathans.

I don't know if what I wrote makes any sense. Posted Image


No. They actually didn't. Listen to leviathan's speech again. 

It i's not what he tells you. 
What he tells you is this:

They say the were conserned with the problem. THEY sought tou find a solution.
in THEIR search for the solution, they created an A.I. whith a sinlge purpose - "Preservation of organic life at all cost" NOT to find a solution to a whole synthetichs vs organics problem.
etc. 


They don't say they MEANT to create an A.I. It might have been created by accident, something they didn't anticipate.  And it certainly doesn't say that the A.I. is looking for a solution. They only assume it does, since it was THEIR initial motivation behind the actions that led to the creation of AI. 

#18905
Rifneno

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ivenoidea wrote...

Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?


Nice find. :wizard:

#18906
ice-vision

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These days i've been thinking alot about the Overlay/WN theory, and the Leviathan dlc made me think of something.

In the Overlord DLC, Shep as an organic was pulled into a hybrid Organic/Synthetic overlay, which was being powered by David Archer's mind being put into the Geth consensus. No images were needed from Shep's mind as you could say the reality was always there due to David.

In the Geth Consensus, Shep was pulled into a fully synthetic overlay, to make sure Shep's mind didn't collapse, Legion used various factors from Shep's memories for his brain to understand the new reality, a floor, a ceiling, pathways, reaper code highlighted orange, a gun to remove the reaper code etc.

In Leviathan, Shep is pulled into an organic overlay.

Leviathan's mind control was said not to be perfect and that the Reapers have a perfected form of their "reprogramming/mind control", but what if the Reaper form is also not perfect? I think the Reapers' form is just the synthetic version we call Indoctrination.

I've been thinking Harbinger itself has the perfected form, throughout the games we know that coming into contact with Reaper artifacts and tech can start the process due to the bombardment of electromagnetic, infra and ultrasonic noise and fields. 

Leviathan can do this practically instantly if the organic is in range, or through it's orbs if out of range.

From the Leviathan DLC i'm concluding that Harbinger has both the organic version (like the Leviathans) and the Synthetic version (Indoctrination) of this process, due to being the Reaper made from the harvested Leviathans.

When Leviathan took control of Shepard, the only forms it used to interact with Shepard was Bryson and the assistant that shot her father, these people Shepard has only met recently and the environment was Bryson's lab which was only visited recently. It never used any other images, what if it couldn't? what if Leviathan can only access people's short-term memory to work with and control?

In the mining facility, Levi had the reserachers enthralled for 10 years and they just presumably carried on working on their projects, maybe there was something in these projects the Leviathan was very interested in, so got them to carry on working using the thralls' knowledge combined with their own. When new reasearchers came, the Levi's could enthrall these people to find out how far techonology has improved and what recent events have happenned, use this to upgrade facility and research tools, this way new people arriving is a good thing for the facility and Levi's goals.

It never disconnected from them for the 10 years and from the way Levi had them acting around Shepard, one can assume it just needed these thralls' current memories and knowledge, and everything else was supplemented by Levi.

My thinking here is, maybe Harbinger's perfected version can access short and long-term memory and that's what he's using in the final sequence after the white transition, pulling from everything in the environment and whatever can be used in Shep's memories for the sole purpose of Indoctrination.

Levi didn't care about it's thralls' long term memories, as it just needed their bodies, but Harbinger/Reapers prefer their thralls to act independently, just in tune with their doctrine.

The beam run is the only time in the series we get face-to-face with Harbinger, all the other times we heard from from him, he was in dark space using the Synthetic/Reaper form of Indoctrination to carry out it's agenda. 

Thoughts?

#18907
Iconoclaste

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estebanus wrote...
You don't need to destroy an enemy in order to defeat them.

In general that is true. But in this present context, we were comparing "defeating" with "ending their behavior". The Reapers are still there, and in "Control" some speculated about a future return of the old agressive behavior. A "momentary victory", if you prefer. In synthesis, well, the Reapers are still quite "free" to act the way they want! But synthesis is a little too much utopian in my taste to be reasonably explained without flaws.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 04 septembre 2012 - 06:05 .


#18908
demersel

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ivenoidea wrote...

Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?


That was exactly the image that sprung into my mind the first time i played through the Anderson/Illusive man scene.

#18909
RavenEyry

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byne wrote...

Well then be a good brother and buy it for her! According to you, you've got plenty of cash, right? ;)

Is buying someone ME3 really a nice thing to do?

#18910
BiO

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demersel wrote...

ivenoidea wrote...

Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?


That was exactly the image that sprung into my mind the first time i played through the Anderson/Illusive man scene.


I really hope this is a joke. Otherwise I'm ashamed the IT supporters can posts such asinine statements.

#18911
Rifneno

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RavenEyry wrote...

byne wrote...

Well then be a good brother and buy it for her! According to you, you've got plenty of cash, right? ;)

Is buying someone ME3 really a nice thing to do?


"Wow, becoming the big info broker's turned you into a real cynic, Liara.  ...  I like it!" - Joker

#18912
BatmanTurian

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ivenoidea wrote...

Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?


wow. great find!

#18913
RavenEyry

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[quote]BatmanTurian wrote...

[quote]demersel wrote...

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

That is tough, man. You need to socialize more even if it hurts you. The point of socializing is not having interactions with as many people as you can but rather finding the people you are comfortable innteracting with. 

[/quote]

That's... not exactly how anxiety disorders work.[/quote]

I know. And i'm sorry if i offended him or you somehow, that was not my intention.
All i'm saying is that it is a tough situation, and it needs time and effort to overcome it.  

[/quote]

and medication and therapy.

[/quote]
I have recently started to see a shrink because inability to ask for help is greatly affecting my studies. Well, by 'see' I don't mean actually see because I never look in his direction.

#18914
BatmanTurian

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BiO_MaN wrote...

demersel wrote...

ivenoidea wrote...

Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?


That was exactly the image that sprung into my mind the first time i played through the Anderson/Illusive man scene.


I really hope this is a joke. Otherwise I'm ashamed the IT supporters can posts such asinine statements.


that was unneccesary.

#18915
Rifneno

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BiO_MaN wrote...

demersel wrote...

ivenoidea wrote...

Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?


That was exactly the image that sprung into my mind the first time i played through the Anderson/Illusive man scene.


I really hope this is a joke. Otherwise I'm ashamed the IT supporters can posts such asinine statements.


Sees literalist claiming that Shepard can survive an explosion measured in gigatons.
Sees an IT'er speculate about a scene similarity when IT states the ending is made up from stuff in Shepard's memories.
Gets pissy about the IT'er.

Rest assured, I'm not laughing with you.  I'm laughing at you.

#18916
Arashi08

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SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

I said this once and ill say it again, I like IT and how it looks like the theory can be true. But there is one flaw in the Theory i dont think anyone of you guys accounted it for, it would mean Bioware sold us a game without an ending and that is probably the one reason why IT will just be a theory. I like the whole of ME3 until the end but a complete remake of the game is probably the only thing that can truly fix the endings of ME3.


Yeah, we've heard this argument before. It's not a flaw, it's a feature. Get over it.


A feature that no writer would consciously do, to completely remove the end and have no resolution whatsoever to the main plot. I could understand if they were going to do follow up DLC about it, but alas no


Don't presume to know what the writer is conciously doing. Neither of us know.


I'm not. But top of Storywriting 101 must be "ending has gotta resolve main plots for it to be complete"

I agree, Whether IT is accurate or not, BioWare should have implemented their story better...

#18917
demersel

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ice-vision wrote...

Thoughts?


But the beam run itself is also taken directly from shepards memory - it is practicallly the same as in ME1.

My theory that the dream starts as soon as harbinger lands directly in front of Shepard, and FLASHES his yellow eyes. Just like the leviathan flashed his eyes right before infusing illusion on Shepard.

#18918
RavenEyry

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ivenoidea wrote...

Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?

That is interesting, though reused animations are in no way clinching of course.

#18919
BiO

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Rifneno wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

demersel wrote...

ivenoidea wrote...

Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?


That was exactly the image that sprung into my mind the first time i played through the Anderson/Illusive man scene.


I really hope this is a joke. Otherwise I'm ashamed the IT supporters can posts such asinine statements.


Sees literalist claiming that Shepard can survive an explosion measured in gigatons.
Sees an IT'er speculate about a scene similarity when IT states the ending is made up from stuff in Shepard's memories.
Gets pissy about the IT'er.

Rest assured, I'm not laughing with you.  I'm laughing at you.


I am an IT supporter. I didn't say anything against IT in the single post I made. I was simply saying how stupid 'ivenoidea"s post is. The game recycles all of the character animations, even taking stuff from ME1. If you're replayed the series enough, you should have noticed this yourself, which I'm sure you've done. Why would this one time of animation reusal be special, with some sort of story-telling importance? It's simply an effective way of creating in-game cutscenes.

#18920
BatmanTurian

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ice-vision wrote...

These days i've been thinking alot about the Overlay/WN theory, and the Leviathan dlc made me think of something.

In the Overlord DLC, Shep as an organic was pulled into a hybrid Organic/Synthetic overlay, which was being powered by David Archer's mind being put into the Geth consensus. No images were needed from Shep's mind as you could say the reality was always there due to David.

In the Geth Consensus, Shep was pulled into a fully synthetic overlay, to make sure Shep's mind didn't collapse, Legion used various factors from Shep's memories for his brain to understand the new reality, a floor, a ceiling, pathways, reaper code highlighted orange, a gun to remove the reaper code etc.

In Leviathan, Shep is pulled into an organic overlay.

Leviathan's mind control was said not to be perfect and that the Reapers have a perfected form of their "reprogramming/mind control", but what if the Reaper form is also not perfect? I think the Reapers' form is just the synthetic version we call Indoctrination.

I've been thinking Harbinger itself has the perfected form, throughout the games we know that coming into contact with Reaper artifacts and tech can start the process due to the bombardment of electromagnetic, infra and ultrasonic noise and fields. 

Leviathan can do this practically instantly if the organic is in range, or through it's orbs if out of range.

From the Leviathan DLC i'm concluding that Harbinger has both the organic version (like the Leviathans) and the Synthetic version (Indoctrination) of this process, due to being the Reaper made from the harvested Leviathans.

When Leviathan took control of Shepard, the only forms it used to interact with Shepard was Bryson and the assistant that shot her father, these people Shepard has only met recently and the environment was Bryson's lab which was only visited recently. It never used any other images, what if it couldn't? what if Leviathan can only access people's short-term memory to work with and control?

In the mining facility, Levi had the reserachers enthralled for 10 years and they just presumably carried on working on their projects, maybe there was something in these projects the Leviathan was very interested in, so got them to carry on working using the thralls' knowledge combined with their own. When new reasearchers came, the Levi's could enthrall these people to find out how far techonology has improved and what recent events have happenned, use this to upgrade facility and research tools, this way new people arriving is a good thing for the facility and Levi's goals.

It never disconnected from them for the 10 years and from the way Levi had them acting around Shepard, one can assume it just needed these thralls' current memories and knowledge, and everything else was supplemented by Levi.

My thinking here is, maybe Harbinger's perfected version can access short and long-term memory and that's what he's using in the final sequence after the white transition, pulling from everything in the environment and whatever can be used in Shep's memories for the sole purpose of Indoctrination.

Levi didn't care about it's thralls' long term memories, as it just needed their bodies, but Harbinger/Reapers prefer their thralls to act independently, just in tune with their doctrine.

The beam run is the only time in the series we get face-to-face with Harbinger, all the other times we heard from from him, he was in dark space using the Synthetic/Reaper form of Indoctrination to carry out it's agenda. 

Thoughts?


Insightful. I, sadly, have nothing to add.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 04 septembre 2012 - 06:08 .


#18921
Rifneno

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RavenEyry wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

That is tough, man. You need to socialize more even if it hurts you. The point of socializing is not having interactions with as many people as you can but rather finding the people you are comfortable innteracting with. 


That's... not exactly how anxiety disorders work.


I know. And i'm sorry if i offended him or you somehow, that was not my intention.
All i'm saying is that it is a tough situation, and it needs time and effort to overcome it.  

and medication and therapy.

I have recently started to see a shrink because inability to ask for help is greatly affecting my studies. Well, by 'see' I don't mean actually see because I never look in his direction.


A medical doctor or a PhD?  Because unless this was caused by a past trauma, it's very likely to be a chemical problem that you need pills for.

Modifié par Rifneno, 04 septembre 2012 - 06:09 .


#18922
Iconoclaste

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ice-vision wrote...

Levi didn't care about it's thralls' long term memories, as it just needed their bodies, but Harbinger/Reapers prefer their thralls to act independently, just in tune with their doctrine.

Thoughts?

It makes sense, since the Reapers need "autonomous agents" in remote places, where the Reapers can't direct their actions. Hence their "philosophy" has to be convincing enough to prevent thralls from being subverted by Shepard-type paladins...

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 04 septembre 2012 - 06:12 .


#18923
RavenEyry

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Rifneno wrote...

A medical doctor or a PhD?  Because unless this was caused by a past trauma, it's very likely to be a chemical problem that you need pills for.

A psychiatrist, though he says pills may be an option. (I've only been twice.)

#18924
BatmanTurian

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BiO_MaN wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

demersel wrote...

ivenoidea wrote...

Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?


That was exactly the image that sprung into my mind the first time i played through the Anderson/Illusive man scene.


I really hope this is a joke. Otherwise I'm ashamed the IT supporters can posts such asinine statements.


Sees literalist claiming that Shepard can survive an explosion measured in gigatons.
Sees an IT'er speculate about a scene similarity when IT states the ending is made up from stuff in Shepard's memories.
Gets pissy about the IT'er.

Rest assured, I'm not laughing with you.  I'm laughing at you.


I am an IT supporter. I didn't say anything against IT in the single post I made. I was simply saying how stupid 'ivenoidea"s post is. The game recycles all of the character animations, even taking stuff from ME1. If you're replayed the series enough, you should have noticed this yourself, which I'm sure you've done. Why would this one time of animation reusal be special, with some sort of story-telling importance? It's simply an effective way of creating in-game cutscenes.


Because in the Leviathan construct and the Geth Concensus, Shepard used his own memories to understand what he's seeing. Naturally, familiar situations, objects, and people would be in there.

#18925
BiO

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BatmanTurian wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

demersel wrote...

ivenoidea wrote...

Hey guys, i just noticed somthing while replaying ME2.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that the animation when TIM makes Anderson get on his knees is kinda ... weird. It looks oddly out of place. www.youtube.com/watch

That's because the animation was already used in ME2 for different characters! www.youtube.com/watch

Yet another case of Shepard reliving his past?


That was exactly the image that sprung into my mind the first time i played through the Anderson/Illusive man scene.


I really hope this is a joke. Otherwise I'm ashamed the IT supporters can posts such asinine statements.


Sees literalist claiming that Shepard can survive an explosion measured in gigatons.
Sees an IT'er speculate about a scene similarity when IT states the ending is made up from stuff in Shepard's memories.
Gets pissy about the IT'er.

Rest assured, I'm not laughing with you.  I'm laughing at you.


I am an IT supporter. I didn't say anything against IT in the single post I made. I was simply saying how stupid 'ivenoidea"s post is. The game recycles all of the character animations, even taking stuff from ME1. If you're replayed the series enough, you should have noticed this yourself, which I'm sure you've done. Why would this one time of animation reusal be special, with some sort of story-telling importance? It's simply an effective way of creating in-game cutscenes.


Because in the Leviathan construct and the Geth Concensus, Shepard used his own memories to understand what he's seeing. Naturally, familiar situations, objects, and people would be in there.


You're completely missing the point. Animations are re-used throughout the 3 games. It's how Bioware creates cutscenes in their games.