80611 réponses à ce sujet

[demersel]

Actually, if you think about it really hard, we still don't have the hard evidence that connects udina to the coup. For all we know he wanted to open the door to let the c-sec in, so they would protect him and from Shepard's team who seemingly led the charge, and who has known connection to cerberus. He might have been just really scared that cerberus want's to kill him off.
Ashley shoots Udina only on shepard's good word. Or shepard does. And the only evidence against him is the word of salarian councillor who got curiously separeted from all the rest of the council.

[SubAstris]

demersel wrote...

Actually, if you think about it really hard, we still don't have the hard evidence that connects udina to the coup. For all we know he wanted to open the door to let the c-sec in, so they would protect him and from Shepard's team who seemingly led the charge, and who has known connection to cerberus. He might have been just really scared that cerberus want's to kill him off.
Ashley shoots Udina only on shepard's good word. Or shepard does. And the only evidence against him is the word of salarian councillor who got curiously separeted from all the rest of the council.

[demersel]

And what was the point of the coup? If it was to take control of the citadel, it clearly failed without shepard's intervention.

What was cerberus's objective? 

It seems to me that there was several, only one of them being assassination of the whole council (including udina and salarian councilor), which failed due to shepard, at least partially, since udina get's killed anyway. 

But that really sounds more like a diversion strike to driva attention from the primary objective...which was....what??? 

Modifié par demersel, 06 septembre 2012 - 04:08 .

[SubAstris]

demersel wrote...

And what was the point of the coup? If it was to take control of the citadel, it clearly failed without shepard's intervention.

What was cerberus's objective? 

It seems to me that there was several, only one of them being assassination of the whole council (including udina and salarian councilor), which failed due to shepard, at least partially, since udina get's killed anyway. 

But that really sounds more like a diversion strike to driva attention from the primary objective...which was....what??? 

Council gets wiped out. Udina's the only councillor left. Gets all the power. Diverts Citadel forces/wields extra powers as Chief Councillor to help Earth. Udina allows Cerberus some access to Citadel in exchange for helping him get what he wanted

Modifié par SubAstris, 06 septembre 2012 - 04:19 .

[SubAstris]

starlitegirlx wrote...


I think the whole ending is indoctrination process, except I'm not sure when it begins or ends. If it starts when Shepard is hit with the beam then destroy never really happens. If it starts somewhere after in the citadel (which BTW how does Tim get there?

The key is that there was nothing ever that showed the reapers would give control to shepard, so why now? Becausee of the lying starbrat who has harbinger's voice when you choose refuse/reject? And we've seen how s

TIM is there because the narrative has already told us he has gone to the Citadel.

In face-value interpretation, Catalyst =/= the Reapers, just bear that in mind

Modifié par SubAstris, 06 septembre 2012 - 04:25 .

[demersel]

SubAstris wrote...

Council gets wiped out. Udina's the only councillor left. Gets all the power. Diverts Citadel forces/wields extra powers as Chief Councillor to help Earth. Udina allows Cerberus some access to Citadel in exchange for helping him get what he wanted

And how would it work exactly? The council, gets killed by extrimists human organisation, and the only councilor alive is the Human councilor? What forces/powers would he have after that? None.   What help would he get from other races to go help earth after that? None. The coup gives him nothing. 

[Iconoclaste]

Restrider wrote...

demersel wrote...

Restrider wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Anyone else feel like there has been an explosion of indoctrination topics since Levithan? Are people finally starting to see the light?

Out of the gut I'd have to say: No.
Outside of the Mark III I still feel like being part of a minority. I just guess that the biggest part of haters left BSN. But there are still trolls frequently posting in the Mark III and in other posts IT is generally having negative connotations (like those who support IT being delusionals or worse...). I still don't get why there is so much hatred towards IT supporters or IT itself? Did I miss some flamewar or something?

No one likes smartasses. )))

I see some of their points, such as "BW never inteded it" or "there will never be an IT revelation". But all that hatred...

Maybe what you said is the thing that explains it best. They were not able to interpret it by themselves (I wasn't, either. I just thought that the end is bizarre, unreal and there has to bemore... then I watched the documentaries) and feel stupid now. Otherwise... "haters gonna hate" is another good way to explain it.

I'll give you a simple enough hint : just read your own description of the "Non-IT" crowd : "They don't get it".

So, you are smart because you "get it", while they are not because they do not accept IT "evidence" like you do. Do you think this might explain why some feel the urge to come here and tell you nice things?

Do you remember how all those who defended their appreciation of the endings, against all the ranters, were "hated" when they started telling their opponents "Maybe you just didn't get it" ? Clearly, this doesn't take into account that if someone did not like the endings, it never meant they did not "get it", and being called "dumb" because someone does not accept opposing arguments, especially regarding subjective appreciation, is sure to start flame wars. Can you see the parallel here with the way some of you describe opponents to IT?

[demersel]

Iconoclaste wrote...
**snip**

As i said. No one likes smartasses. 

Hello Iconoclaste. What's up? 

Modifié par demersel, 06 septembre 2012 - 04:39 .

[Home run MF]

SubAstris wrote...

demersel wrote...

And what was the point of the coup? If it was to take control of the citadel, it clearly failed without shepard's intervention.

What was cerberus's objective? 

It seems to me that there was several, only one of them being assassination of the whole council (including udina and salarian councilor), which failed due to shepard, at least partially, since udina get's killed anyway. 

But that really sounds more like a diversion strike to driva attention from the primary objective...which was....what??? 

Council gets wiped out. Udina's the only councillor left. Gets all the power. Diverts Citadel forces/wields extra powers as Chief Councillor to help Earth. Udina allows Cerberus some access to Citadel in exchange for helping him get what he wanted

Exchange between EDI and Shepard
"Shepard, I'm keeping track of the investigation into Udina's actions on the Citadel."
"It appears he was motivated to seize power in order to launch a counterattack on Earth."
"Most experts and advisors would agree that such a move at this point would be doomed to failure."
"His poor plan may have been exactly what the Reapers wanted. It is possible he was indoctrinated."
"He'd better be. At least that way he'd have an excuse."

Still it does not explain how everyone and their mother appears to be indoctrinated except for the person that has been in close proximity of Reapers and their technology, has been rebuild using reaper tech captured and kept unconscious by indoctrinated people she also has weird dreams that taken out of context are out of character.

Modifié par Home run MF, 06 septembre 2012 - 04:43 .

[SubAstris]

demersel wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Council gets wiped out. Udina's the only councillor left. Gets all the power. Diverts Citadel forces/wields extra powers as Chief Councillor to help Earth. Udina allows Cerberus some access to Citadel in exchange for helping him get what he wanted

And how would it work exactly? The council, gets killed by extrimists human organisation, and the only councilor alive is the Human councilor? What forces/powers would he have after that? None.   What help would he get from other races to go help earth after that? None. The coup gives him nothing. 

Killing the council removes opposition to Udina's plans. As the most important person on the Citadel, I'm sure he could do something

[Iconoclaste]

Home run MF wrote...

Exchange between EDI and Shepard
"Shepard, I'm keeping track of the investigation into Udina's actions on the Citadel."
"It appears he was motivated to seize power in order to launch a counterattack on Earth."
"Most experts and advisors would agree that such a move at this point would be doomed to failure."
"His poor plan may have been exactly what the Reapers wanted. It is possible he was indoctrinated."
"He'd better be. At least that way he'd have an excuse."

Still it does not explain how everyone and their mother appears to be indoctrinated except for the person that has been in close proximity of Reapers and their technology, has been rebuild using reaper tech captured and kept unconscious by indoctrinated people she also has weird dreams that taken out of context are out of character.

Interesting part, this speculation on behalf of EDI.

I will propose the following hypothesis regarding the "Everyone and is mother..." part.

Shepard is one of the very few who actually faced Reapers, and this can be deemed to have as many advantages as disadvantages, since he really knows the enemy. Just like some people pretend to "worship the Devil", they do so without knowledge of the "enemy", and only upon word-of-mouth pseudo-knowledge of the deemed "advantages" of it. But anyone who can read and understand will see, outside of the "indoctrinated followers", that such enemies are of pure evil, and siding with them will only bring momentary "advantages", that will not measure up to the real, long-term consequences. Hence Shepard's frequent contacts with the "devils" can be the exact reason to oppose them and "resist" : acute knowledge and refusal of their philosophy, however appealing it might seem to some. The fact that only a handful of people fell to indoctrination, much less than the vast majority who joined forces to fight against the Reapers, is supporting this.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[demersel]

Home run MF wrote...

Exchange between EDI and Shepard
"Shepard, I'm keeping track of the investigation into Udina's actions on the Citadel."
"It appears he was motivated to seize power in order to launch a counterattack on Earth."
"Most experts and advisors would agree that such a move at this point would be doomed to failure."
"His poor plan may have been exactly what the Reapers wanted. It is possible he was indoctrinated."
"He'd better be. At least that way he'd have an excuse."

Still it does not explain how everyone and their mother appears to be indoctrinated except for the person that has been in close proximity of Reapers and their technology, has been rebuild using reaper tech captured and kept unconscious by indoctrinated people she also has weird dreams that taken out of context are out of character.

Note, how even in this qoute - it is what the investigation supposes. No facts. And it is after the events ended and udina got killed. 

everybody knows, that it is very convinient to lay blame on a dead person. (he is the only councilor who gets DEAD, and the one who would benefited LESS) 

The only other councilor that can get killed is the salarian and he was the source for the info in the first place. And it is likely that it is HIS testimony that the investigation is based upon. 
Salarians in general are very fishy in ME3. Their home world doesn't get invaded or attacked at any point by reapers. 
They are the ones who try to sabotage the piece between Krogans and Turians. And the are the only ones that do not take part in the war unless you sabotage your biggest and strongest war asset for long term. 

They were the ones who uplifted krogans protect council space (i.e. Relay Network) from rachni assault. 
Rachni were influnced by the leviathans. 
After krogan defeated rachni, they themselves started to wage war on council space (same goal as rachni before them)
and again it was the salarians who came up with a way to stop them - geno****e. 
Salarians experiment a lot with evolution. (the same thing that reapers ae doing on the grand scale)

cerberus somehow knows about salarians top secret facility - they must have a very high placed source. 

[SubAstris]

Home run MF wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

demersel wrote...

And what was the point of the coup? If it was to take control of the citadel, it clearly failed without shepard's intervention.

What was cerberus's objective? 

It seems to me that there was several, only one of them being assassination of the whole council (including udina and salarian councilor), which failed due to shepard, at least partially, since udina get's killed anyway. 

But that really sounds more like a diversion strike to driva attention from the primary objective...which was....what??? 

Council gets wiped out. Udina's the only councillor left. Gets all the power. Diverts Citadel forces/wields extra powers as Chief Councillor to help Earth. Udina allows Cerberus some access to Citadel in exchange for helping him get what he wanted

Exchange between EDI and Shepard
"Shepard, I'm keeping track of the investigation into Udina's actions on the Citadel."
"It appears he was motivated to seize power in order to launch a counterattack on Earth."
"Most experts and advisors would agree that such a move at this point would be doomed to failure."
"His poor plan may have been exactly what the Reapers wanted. It is possible he was indoctrinated."
"He'd better be. At least that way he'd have an excuse."

Still it does not explain how everyone and their mother appears to be indoctrinated except for the person that has been in close proximity of Reapers and their technology, has been rebuild using reaper tech captured and kept unconscious by indoctrinated people she also has weird dreams that taken out of context are out of character.

I genuinely can't remember that dialogue, my bad. It's hard to actually establish he was indoctrinated and I thought that would be a bit of a cop-out.

As you say, "taken out of context"...

[SubAstris]

starlitegirlx wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...


I think the whole ending is indoctrination process, except I'm not sure when it begins or ends. If it starts when Shepard is hit with the beam then destroy never really happens. If it starts somewhere after in the citadel (which BTW how does Tim get there?

The key is that there was nothing ever that showed the reapers would give control to shepard, so why now? Becausee of the lying starbrat who has harbinger's voice when you choose refuse/reject? And we've seen how s

TIM is there because the narrative has already told us he has gone to the Citadel.

In face-value interpretation, Catalyst =/= the Reapers, just bear that in mind

I'm not doing face-value interpretation. I don't like it in something that offers clear alternatives that require more thinking and investigation.

I did forget that Tim had gone there, but how does he make shepard pull the trigger on anderson? That wasn't part of indoctrination or any power we've enountered beyond dominate except the thorian which wasn't really indoctriantion and shepard would have to have been willing but was not. More like disgusted and appalled.

I regret that BW didn't really give us a very good explanation of how it works exactly, except that we know that TIM got those Reaper implants

[demersel]

SubAstris wrote...

Killing the council removes opposition to Udina's plans. As the most important person on the Citadel, I'm sure he could do something

The council does not have any direct power. It consist of representatives of the races. It isn't like if you are the only surviving council member - everyone suddenly has to obey your every word. 

It's like UN. - Tell me, if a russian representetive kills off every single other representative. - does it make him the undisputed ruler of earth? "Oh, I quess everyone else is dead, now we have to do what he says, Now we have to give israel's land to the Arabic Countries, and devide United states, between cuba, mexica and canada, Also we have to fight china now. sucks, but what can we do about it..." 

Modifié par demersel, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:08 .

[demersel]

Iconoclaste wrote..

I will propose the following hypothesis regarding the "Everyone and is mother..." part.

Shepard is one of the very few who actually faced Reapers, and this can be deemed to have as many advantages as disadvantages, since he really knows the enemy. Just like some people pretend to "worship the Devil", they do so without knowledge of the "enemy", and only upon word-of-mouth pseudo-knowledge of the deemed "advantages" of it. But anyone who can read and understand will see, outside of the "indoctrinated followers", that such enemies are of pure evil, and siding with them will only bring momentary "advantages", that will not measure up to the real, long-term consequences. Hence Shepard's frequent contacts with the "devils" can be the exact reason to oppose them and "resist" : acute knowledge and refusal of their philosophy, however appealing it might seem to some. The fact that only a handful of people fell to indoctrination, much less than the vast majority who joined forces to fight against the Reapers, is supporting this.

I agree with you on this. First hand knowedge might be exactly the thing that allows Shepard to resist indoctrination, and even break free of it.  

[SubAstris]

demersel wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Killing the council removes opposition to Udina's plans. As the most important person on the Citadel, I'm sure he could do something

The council does not have any direct power. It consist of representatives of the races. It isn't like if you are the only surviving council member - everyone suddenly has to obey your every word. 

It's like UN. - Tell me, if a russian representetive kills off every single other representative. - does it make him the undisputed ruler of earth? "Oh, I quess everyone else is dead, now we have to do what he says, Now we have to give israel's land to the Arabic Countries, and devide United states, between cuba, mexica and canada, Also we hace to fight china now. sucks, but what can we do about it..." 

When backed with overwhelming military force e.g. Cerberus, they do

[GethPrimeMKII]

SubAstris wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...


I think the whole ending is indoctrination process, except I'm not sure when it begins or ends. If it starts when Shepard is hit with the beam then destroy never really happens. If it starts somewhere after in the citadel (which BTW how does Tim get there?

The key is that there was nothing ever that showed the reapers would give control to shepard, so why now? Becausee of the lying starbrat who has harbinger's voice when you choose refuse/reject? And we've seen how s

TIM is there because the narrative has already told us he has gone to the Citadel.

In face-value interpretation, Catalyst =/= the Reapers, just bear that in mind

I'm not doing face-value interpretation. I don't like it in something that offers clear alternatives that require more thinking and investigation.

I did forget that Tim had gone there, but how does he make shepard pull the trigger on anderson? That wasn't part of indoctrination or any power we've enountered beyond dominate except the thorian which wasn't really indoctriantion and shepard would have to have been willing but was not. More like disgusted and appalled.

I regret that BW didn't really give us a very good explanation of how it works exactly, except that we know that TIM got those Reaper implants

                I have a problem with the idea of TIM implanting himself with reaper tech. TIM knows enough about reaper technology to implanting himself with the tech goes completely against his goal of controlling the reapers. Paul Grayson is a great example of how quickly the reapers take hold of someone who is implanted with their tech. Even from the literal perspective, it makes no sense for TIM to implant himself with reaper tech knowing full well what he's trying to control will just end up controlling him.

Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:12 .

[Iconoclaste]

SubAstris wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

Exchange between EDI and Shepard
"Shepard, I'm keeping track of the investigation into Udina's actions on the Citadel."
"It appears he was motivated to seize power in order to launch a counterattack on Earth."
"Most experts and advisors would agree that such a move at this point would be doomed to failure."
"His poor plan may have been exactly what the Reapers wanted. It is possible he was indoctrinated."
"He'd better be. At least that way he'd have an excuse." 

I genuinely can't remember that dialogue, my bad. It's hard to actually establish he was indoctrinated and I thought that would be a bit of a cop-out.

As you say, "taken out of context"...

Well, in my view, what EDI says makes a lot of sense : from ME1, we knew Udina to be too much about politics and not enough about common sense, from Anderson's opinion. In other words, Udina may have been well-spoken in a "political context", he was just dumb in the context of a war.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:18 .

[Iconoclaste]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

                I have a problem with the idea of TIM implanting himself with reaper tech. TIM knows enough about reaper technology to implanting himself with the tech goes completely against his goal of controlling the reapers. Paul Grayson is a great example of how quickly the reapers take hold of someone who is implanted with their tech. Even from the literal perspective, it makes no sense for TIM to implant himself with reaper tech knowing full well what he's trying to control will just end up controlling him.

The whole point of the "Sanctuary" segment of ME3 is to show that TIM has finally acquired the means to block, divert and imitate the Reapers' signal to control minions, so they will now obey to Cerberus' signal.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[demersel]

SubAstris wrote...

When backed with overwhelming military force e.g. Cerberus, they do

since when is it overwhelming military force capable of taking over and controlling the whole galaxy? 

If Cerberus took over the citadel, and Udina was leading them, and after that he would order everyone to drop everything, (protecting their homeworlds from reapers) and go save earth. Everydoby would be like "what ever man, so you have the citadel - have fun with it. We've got problems of our own. O! You have cerberus backing you up? Good for you. Why don't you send them to take back the earth then? If you have any problems with it - you know where to find us - at our homeworlds fighting the reapers. We have reapers at our step. You thing cerberus is enough to scare us into doing anything? Get in line. "