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[SubAstris]

Iconoclaste wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

Exchange between EDI and Shepard
"Shepard, I'm keeping track of the investigation into Udina's actions on the Citadel."
"It appears he was motivated to seize power in order to launch a counterattack on Earth."
"Most experts and advisors would agree that such a move at this point would be doomed to failure."
"His poor plan may have been exactly what the Reapers wanted. It is possible he was indoctrinated."
"He'd better be. At least that way he'd have an excuse." 

I genuinely can't remember that dialogue, my bad. It's hard to actually establish he was indoctrinated and I thought that would be a bit of a cop-out.

As you say, "taken out of context"...

Well, in my view, what EDI says makes a lot of sense : from ME1, we knew Udina to be too much about politics and not enough about common sense, from Angerson's opinion. In other words, Udina may have been well-spoken in a "political context", he was just dumb in the context of a war.

Yeah, he's pretty irrational, it is the sort of thing he would do, indoc. or not

[demersel]

Iconoclaste wrote...
 In other words, Udina may have been well-spoken in a "political context", he was just dumb in the context of a war. 

except this is political situation, and not that of a war - and he, as polititian would be the first tto know that it gives him nothing. 

[GethPrimeMKII]

Iconoclaste wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

                I have a problem with the idea of TIM implanting himself with reaper tech. TIM knows enough about reaper technology to implanting himself with the tech goes completely against his goal of controlling the reapers. Paul Grayson is a great example of how quickly the reapers take hold of someone who is implanted with their tech. Even from the literal perspective, it makes no sense for TIM to implant himself with reaper tech knowing full well what he's trying to control will just end up controlling him.

The whole point of the "Sanctuary" segment of ME3 is to show that TIM has finally acquired the means to block, divert and imitate the Reapers' signal to control their minions, so they will now obey to Cerberus' signal.

And even there we learn that technology was far from perfect. It'd still be pretty stupid from face value perspective for TIM to implant himself with experimental technology before confronting Shepard.

[SubAstris]

demersel wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

When backed with overwhelming military force e.g. Cerberus, they do

since when is it overwhelming military force capable of taking over and controlling the whole galaxy? 

If Cerberus took over the citadel, and Udina was leading them, and after that he would order everyone to drop everything, (protecting their homeworlds from reapers) and go save earth. Everydoby would be like "what ever man, so you have the citadel - have fun with it. We've got problems of our own. O! You have cerberus backing you up? Good for you. Why don't you send them to take back the earth then? If you have any problems with it - you know where to find us - at our homeworlds fighting the reapers. We have reapers at our step. You thing cerberus is enough to scare us into doing anything? Get in line. "

Having control of the Citadel would bring a lot of power, enough to influence a lot of important people. I never said it could take over the whole galaxy, just that Cerberus could and would influence people on the Citadel.

It's not as simple as everyone returning, the Citadel is still a strategically important target and would be for any group, esp. since Cerberus could potentially block people leaving.

[demersel]

Remember how Saren talks about his implants? sovereign sensed his doubtes and gave him implants to streighen hhis resolve. Exactly like it haapens to tim. And saren was indoctrinated long fbefore he got his implants.

[Iconoclaste]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

And even there we learn that technology was far from perfect. It'd still be pretty stupid from face value perspective for TIM to implant himself with experimental technology before confronting Shepard.

TIM is a gambler, no doubt about that! But he gambled too high this time, and just like you wrote, he faced the consequences. We can see from the video archive in Sanctuary that the lady about to mod TIM doesn't seem too sure if it's a good idea. But time is running, and TIM is greedy enough to do it.

[Iconoclaste]

demersel wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
 In other words, Udina may have been well-spoken in a "political context", he was just dumb in the context of a war. 

except this is political situation, and not that of a war - and he, as polititian would be the first tto know that it gives him nothing.

The Reapers are attacking Earth, this looks like war to me, and surely to Udina also! It may very well motivate his "desperate" plan.

[pseudonymic]

Iconoclaste wrote...

I'll give you a simple enough hint : just read your own description of the "Non-IT" crowd : "They don't get it".

So, you are smart because you "get it", while they are not because they do not accept IT "evidence" like you do. Do you think this might explain why some feel the urge to come here and tell you nice things?

Do you remember how all those who defended their appreciation of the endings, against all the ranters, were "hated" when they started telling their opponents "Maybe you just didn't get it" ? Clearly, this doesn't take into account that if someone did not like the endings, it never meant they did not "get it", and being called "dumb" because someone does not accept opposing arguments, especially regarding subjective appreciation, is sure to start flame wars. Can you see the parallel here with the way some of you describe opponents to IT?

everyone around these bands is kind of too uptight and defensive. add to that the fact that this is the internet so reservations are off and it's always going to be a name-calling offensive field. the best anyone can do is learn to ignore it.

however, entering a post that is clearly something you (or whoever) might be opposed to just to say it's invalid IS a little beyond silly, if not more pointless than the disagreement war itself. y'all need to relax, and if you don't like something someone said, just ignore it. there's nothing constructive about nitpicking a comment just because someone thinks differently. 

resume the IT debate, please.

[demersel]

SubAstris wrote...

Having control of the Citadel would bring a lot of power, enough to influence a lot of important people. I never said it could take over the whole galaxy, just that Cerberus could and would influence people on the Citadel.

It's not as simple as everyone returning, the Citadel is still a strategically important target and would be for any group, esp. since Cerberus could potentially block people leaving.

Cerberus takes control of citadel - every one else thinks - of we're on our own now. And continue fighting their own battles. 

In time of war citadel has no power. It's only use for anyone, would be refugee camp.  Which it basicly is in ME3 anyway. 
The citadel is important to Shepard - as it gives him the opportunity to unite all races around it. 

[pseudonymic]

so, i watched clevernoob's post-ec documentary again yesterday and the discussion about the citadel beam stuck to my head. generally, do you guys agree with what he says, that the beam cannot possibly exist since we've only seen it in mass relay form before, thus being a part of shepard's indoctrination?

[SubAstris]

demersel wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Having control of the Citadel would bring a lot of power, enough to influence a lot of important people. I never said it could take over the whole galaxy, just that Cerberus could and would influence people on the Citadel.

It's not as simple as everyone returning, the Citadel is still a strategically important target and would be for any group, esp. since Cerberus could potentially block people leaving.

Cerberus takes control of citadel - every one else thinks - of we're on our own now. And continue fighting their own battles. 

In time of war citadel has no power. It's only use for anyone, would be refugee camp.  Which it basicly is in ME3 anyway. 
The citadel is important to Shepard - as it gives him the opportunity to unite all races around it. 

I don't think you can overestimate the symbolic power of the heart of the galactic life being occupied by opposition forces. It means Cerberus have the means to cause a lot of damage, and thus they wield a lot of power

[SubAstris]

pseudonymic wrote...

so, i watched clevernoob's post-ec documentary again yesterday and the discussion about the citadel beam stuck to my head. generally, do you guys agree with what he says, that the beam cannot possibly exist since we've only seen it in mass relay form before, thus being a part of shepard's indoctrination?

The beam from the Citadel, I assume? If so, it doesn't seem to follow

[GethPrimeMKII]

Iconoclaste wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

And even there we learn that technology was far from perfect. It'd still be pretty stupid from face value perspective for TIM to implant himself with experimental technology before confronting Shepard.

TIM is a gambler, no doubt about that! But he gambled too high this time, and just like you wrote, he faced the consequences. We can see from the video archive in Sanctuary that the lady about to mod TIM doesn't seem too sure if it's a good idea. But time is running, and TIM is greedy enough to do it.

I've played through Sanctuary numerous times and have no idea what video you're talking about. 

[Iconoclaste]

demersel wrote...

Cerberus takes control of citadel - every one else thinks - of we're on our own now. And continue fighting their own battles. 

In time of war citadel has no power. It's only use for anyone, would be refugee camp.  Which it basicly is in ME3 anyway. 
The citadel is important to Shepard - as it gives him the opportunity to unite all races around it. 

The Citadel is the "Control center" of the Mass Relay network, it's just a sound move for TIM to try to get a hold on it before everyone else. The means he might have used to get some help from inside is unknown, though. But one thing is almost assured : of all the places to take shelter in the Galaxy, the Citadel is the only place the Reapers will not try to destroy.

[demersel]

Iconoclaste wrote...

demersel wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
 In other words, Udina may have been well-spoken in a "political context", he was just dumb in the context of a war. 

except this is political situation, and not that of a war - and he, as polititian would be the first tto know that it gives him nothing.

The Reapers are attacking Earth, this looks like war to me, and surely to Udina also! It may very well motivate his "desperate" plan.

Well, objective to get others help you liberate your home looks political to me.
The only force solution to it would be to get a gun to everyones head and say that if they don't do what you want, you'll kill them. Which killing the other councel members, and siezing control of the citadel is NOT. 
Making a threat that you'd blow up evere other race's homeworlds and planets, unless they help you to take earth right now - that would be the equvalent. 

[demersel]

Iconoclaste wrote...

The Citadel is the "Control center" of the Mass Relay network, it's just a sound move for TIM to try to get a hold on it before everyone else. The means he might have used to get some help from inside is unknown, though. But one thing is almost assured : of all the places to take shelter in the Galaxy, the Citadel is the only place the Reapers will not try to destroy.

No question about that. It has value for the illusive man, and it makes sense that he would try to take it. 

No, what doesn't make sense is why would udina help him with that, since the success of the plan does not accoumplishes his objective, and does not benefit HIS agenda at all. 

[pseudonymic]

SubAstris wrote...

pseudonymic wrote...

so, i watched clevernoob's post-ec documentary again yesterday and the discussion about the citadel beam stuck to my head. generally, do you guys agree with what he says, that the beam cannot possibly exist since we've only seen it in mass relay form before, thus being a part of shepard's indoctrination?

The beam from the Citadel, I assume? If so, it doesn't seem to follow

yep. the idea of it being something created in shepard's mind, as opposed to it being an actual beam, since all of the instances in where a beam was present it had to do with a mass relay - and even the conduit on ilos was presented in a mini-mass relay form as well. in other words, anything that "transported" someone, which would indicate this is something that may occur in shepard's mind. i'm not sure whether or not i agree with that being a valid IT sign, simply because of how it was present before shepard being knocked out.

[Iconoclaste]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

And even there we learn that technology was far from perfect. It'd still be pretty stupid from face value perspective for TIM to implant himself with experimental technology before confronting Shepard.

TIM is a gambler, no doubt about that! But he gambled too high this time, and just like you wrote, he faced the consequences. We can see from the video archive in Sanctuary that the lady about to mod TIM doesn't seem too sure if it's a good idea. But time is running, and TIM is greedy enough to do it.

I've played through Sanctuary numerous times and have no idea what video you're talking about. 

Sorry, my mistake. It's actually during the assault on TIM's base, I mixed up with the clips on Sanctuary.

[demersel]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

And even there we learn that technology was far from perfect. It'd still be pretty stupid from face value perspective for TIM to implant himself with experimental technology before confronting Shepard.

TIM is a gambler, no doubt about that! But he gambled too high this time, and just like you wrote, he faced the consequences. We can see from the video archive in Sanctuary that the lady about to mod TIM doesn't seem too sure if it's a good idea. But time is running, and TIM is greedy enough to do it.

I've played through Sanctuary numerous times and have no idea what video you're talking about. 

He must have mixed it up. - i think he is talking about a video in cronos station. 

[pseudonymic]

^^^

Modifié par pseudonymic, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[demersel]

pseudonymic wrote...
yep. the idea of it being something created in shepard's mind, as opposed to it being an actual beam, since all of the instances in where a beam was present it had to do with a mass relay - and even the conduit on ilos was presented in a mini-mass relay form as well. in other words, anything that "transported" someone, which would indicate this is something that may occur in shepard's mind. i'm not sure whether or not i agree with that being a valid IT sign, simply because of how it was present before shepard being knocked out.

We have however alredy seen such beams - It was the climat changing made by reapers and installed by Geth - 
there is an N7 mission about it in ME2 and it is present in one of the missions in farewalker DLC. 

[Iconoclaste]

pseudonymic wrote...

yep. the idea of it being something created in shepard's mind, as opposed to it being an actual beam, since all of the instances in where a beam was present it had to do with a mass relay - and even the conduit on ilos was presented in a mini-mass relay form as well. in other words, anything that "transported" someone, which would indicate this is something that may occur in shepard's mind. i'm not sure whether or not i agree with that being a valid IT sign, simply because of how it was present before shepard being knocked out.

The "beam" is referenced before Shepard gets down on Earth's ground, so it has been witnessed by others in order to require the whole mission. No "collective" case of indoc here, I fear.

But I can see someone coming up with Mjr Coates kind of fill-up for this. What was the origin of the 1st report on this "Beam"?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

Iconoclaste wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

And even there we learn that technology was far from perfect. It'd still be pretty stupid from face value perspective for TIM to implant himself with experimental technology before confronting Shepard.

TIM is a gambler, no doubt about that! But he gambled too high this time, and just like you wrote, he faced the consequences. We can see from the video archive in Sanctuary that the lady about to mod TIM doesn't seem too sure if it's a good idea. But time is running, and TIM is greedy enough to do it.

I've played through Sanctuary numerous times and have no idea what video you're talking about. 

Sorry, my mistake. It's actually during the assault on TIM's base, I mixed up with the clips on Sanctuary.

On Chronus Station there were video logs regarding Shepard's reconstruction, EDI's construction, and EVA's constructions. I still don't know where you're finding this video log of TIM imlanting himself with reaper tech.

[pseudonymic]

Iconoclaste wrote...

The "beam" is referenced before Shepard gets down on Earth's ground, so it has been witnessed by others in order to require the whole mission. No "collective" case of indoc here, I fear.

true, true. good point. this was just one of those things that felt a little off the field to me so i was curious to know what you guys thought. 

going over everything that has been discussed and discovered usually leaves me with a feeling of... when has this indoctrination actually started, and what's real and what isn't that i can't shake off. like dating back all the way to ME1 even.

[Iconoclaste]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

On Chronus Station there were video logs regarding Shepard's reconstruction, EDI's construction, and EVA's constructions. I still don't know where you're finding this video log of TIM imlanting himself with reaper tech.

I think others will remember the video, sorry if you don't. We do not see the actual "transplant", it's just a few moments before, when TIM is preparing for a risky medical business...